Pioneer Elite DV-79AVi - Page 3

Anyone else know?

Hi Tony,
If I`m correct "Pure Direct" is for the audio only and has no effect on video quality.
I have the CLD-99 and the DV-09 . both have "Pure Direct" , and the video board is "turned off" , but , ONLY when you use the analog out.
This also activates the "Legato Link Conversion" or thr "Pro" version of same.
Pioneer uses some very high quality D-A converters , and have always been praised for there sound.
I use digital connections on both LD & DVD so I don`t use it that much , BUT , I have tried it and if you own "bright speakers" (like Boston A`s) , it does provide a nice , almost "tube" like sound.
I hope this helps !
Gary

Thanks. What I am referring to is the "Direct" mode that outputs unprocessed 480i over HDMI. Was wondering if it also did this over component.

AK47 was asking about sending YCbCr from a 969avi (Euro model) via HDMI because he can only get RGB 4:4:4 to work. Maybe the 59avi (and 969avi) will only send RGB via HDMI and the new "Direct mode" will send the YCbCr as it comes from the MPEG decoder, which it really should be doing now. If this is the case, it's really a "bug fix". Although, the design of the 59avi is over two years old, it may be always converting to RGB before it gets to the HDMI chip. This could possibly explain why the 59avi didn't have the HDMI->DVI BTB and WTW clipping bug. When the 59avi came out there were very few HDMI input displays, so I guess it probably wasn't a bad decision. If it did have the clipping bug, the "bashing" would have been endless, especially from the Denon fan-boy camp. Does anybody know for sure if they have gotten YCbCr from the 59avi HDMI output?

Also, the conversion of YCbCr to RGB is a simple transform. I doubt anybody would be able to see the difference. However, if you are feeding the output to a scaler, and the scaler does its thing in YCbCr, then it would have to convert the RGB back to YCbCr. As I said before, I don't know if this is an "identity transform" or not. And if the player can do 10bit YCbCr (something upsamples before output), you don't want RGB anywhere near it.

larry

I think you are on something here. When the 59AVi first came out it
had DVI which is 8 bit RGB and I bet they are sending RGB DVI over
HDMI with the 59AVi... They simply substituted the output...

I agree it is a simply color space conversion but can and does introduce some
error into the signal path.

When was this?

Maybe I am wrong but I thought the 59AVi first shipped with a DVI output? No?

I'm fairly sure the 59avi had HDMI its whole life cycle so far. From their track record, it would be very unlike Pio to make a hardware change mid product cycle. Firmware changes were almost kept secret.

larry

I could of sworn it didn't have HDMI but can't find any information that suggests otherwise...

You are probably right...

I know someone who bought the 59avi when it was first released. It had HDMI.

FYI: DVDs are digital 480i native. A "raw" data output would necessarily be 480i digital, enabling minimal/superior outboard processing with a DVDO, Faroudja or similar unit. The performance of that combination is likely to be state-of-the-art for DVD. DVD players that output 480i digital are very rare, or created through the addition of SDI ports. This is parallel to using a CD transport as a reading device only, and then an outboard DAC for the processing, as many audiophiles do.

It's more like using an MP3 player with a digital output. There's no way to plug in a different mpeg decoder, so you're stuck with the one that's built into the player. A true raw output would be more like the firewire output on HDTV boxes, where the decoding as well as the D/A conversion can be performed by an external box.

--
Steve

Wouldn't that be nice! A DVD "player" with only 2 firewire outputs. One for video and one for audio.

larry

So, if I use a 79Avi, through a 74Txi, into a PRO-1130HD, would I get the best PQ using 480i? I don't plan on using anything external to process the signal. I know it may be subjective, but I want the best possible PQ. My newbie mind thinks a progressive setting would be best, but I'm not sure. I also plan to use HDMI cables all the way.

Thanks for any help.

Pooper asked:
Does anybody know for sure if they have gotten YCbCr from the 59avi HDMI output?


I´ve had my 868avi for a year now. Via HDMI, you have the option of outputting YCbCr or RGB. You have to go to the HDMI Colour Adjust menu: Standard is RGB, Enhanced is YCbCr. When I calibrated my DVD and FP with the DVE dvd, I saw no difference in quality, but I opted for RGB as I guessed that the sooner that conversion done is the better (well, I know the 868avi scaler is better than the Faroudja in the TW-500). I send a straight 720p signal to the TW-500 for films (I don´t like the Faroudja deinterlacer-scaler for films; it sucks up the colour).



Also, the conversion of YCbCr to RGB is a simple transform. I doubt anybody would be able to see the difference. However, if you are feeding the output to a scaler, and the scaler does its thing in YCbCr, then it would have to convert the RGB back to YCbCr. As I said before, I don't know if this is an "identity transform" or not. And if the player can do 10bit YCbCr (something upsamples before output), you don't want RGB anywhere near it.

Well, now you have me thinking about this again. May be I´ll try the Enhanced Colour (YCbCr) option again. It could be an improvement if my FP works in YCbCr and it is no use to feed it with a "final" RGB signal? The "Enhanced" option seems to suggest some kind of upsamling. But I doubt it, I suspect the FP prefers a RGB progressive signal so that it doesn´t have to do any proccessing.

In any case. the YCbCr option seems to be the way to go with the new DV-79, as they say it has full 10 bits proccessing and 4:4:4 upsampling. But are you sure that 10 bits YCbCr is really better (closer to what´s encoded in the DVD) than 8 bits RGB? Isn´t YCbCr simply a compression method?

Thanks for the info, Joaquin. DVDs are encoded with 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0. This was done to keep disc space to a minimum as a tradeoff for higher chroma ranges. The MPEG decoder will upsample the 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 (this is where the Chroma Upsampling Error - CUE- occurs if the decoder has the bug). I don't know if any MPEG decoders upsample to 10bit or not - there's not much need for it since the data is on the disc - except maybe for the Cr data. Processing "down" the road makes more sense to be done in 10-12bits and output 10bits. Outputting 12bits per component wouldn't make much sense because you really only have 8bits to start with.

Converting between RGB and YCbCr is an identity transform if you do "real" math - not fixed point math. So converting back and forth would change some info by "1" here an there and probably not be noticeable. I believe most components do processing using YCbCr. A lot of this has to do with output methods. Composite, s-video, and component can all be used with YCbCr data. VGA requires a conversion to RGB. And nowadays DVI, also.

larry

Pardon a very simple question: If one were to use the 79avi in the most simple-minded way--outputting 1080i via HDMI into one of the new 1080p dlp's--would one expect the video to be significantly different from that given by the 59avi used this way?

I suspect the -79 will give better results because of 10 bits proccessing and 4:4:4 cr upsampling. But I think Levesque has said that the difference is subtle, not big. I think I am keeping my 59/868 for a year more. I don´t mind much about the audio improvements in the -79, as I have another dedicated player for music (Philips SACD1000, far better audio player). Well, may be if my SACD1000 dies soon...

Any input on this would be very welcome. I'm trying to locate a good source for the DV-79AVi. Magnolia Hi-Fi shows it on their computer, but is pricing them at $1199. The manager there did not have any idea if he could get one of the silver models for me -- he tried to convince me they would only be made in black.

Has anyone else been able to get a confirmed order placed for one of the silver units; also, who is a good online source for these players that would also be a certified Pioneer dealer?

Thanks in advance...

I pre-paid for one at the Pleasant Hill Magnolia for $999.99. I also purchased the Audioquest 1394-3 and HDMI-3 cables to connect it to my 74Txvi reciever....can't wait to get it!!

Thanks -- I'll have to discuss this with the manager at the Santa Rosa Magnolia, who just quoted me $1199 about 2 hours ago...

This sounds like its going to be a really great player. After my very positive experiences with both Pioneers dvd recorder and most recently the 588, I'm really looking forward to hearing how this baby performs.

Is the silver U.S. version 100% confirmed, or is it just a rumor at this point?

Kai

Just one correction to my first post about the 868avi: last night I checked it again, and my memory had betrayed me: The HDMI Enhanced Colour option IS the RGB one. The HDMI Standard Colour option outputs YCbCr.

So what is the 79avi going to do differently? Newer components for one - MPEG decoder and deinterlacer, IIRC. Yes?

larry

RGB enhanced just set pc levels and RGB standard set video levels. Setting rgb to enhanced will make your image darker at the sake of detail, unless your projector is set for RGB enhanced levels.

The 868i/59avi Does send out either ycbcr or RGB. with my PJ if i set it to RGB all goes green as it only supports HDMI YUV digital, set to yuv and the pic is normal.
This applies to the interlaced and progressive output via HDMI.

RGB enhanced just set pc levels and RGB standard set video levels. Setting rgb to enhanced will make your image darker at the sake of detail, unless your projector is set for RGB enhanced levels.

Beware there is a confussion lurking there. The 868avi doesn´t give you the option between RGB-Video and RGB-PC. Its HDMI "Enhanced Colour" option is simply RGB-Video as opposed to HDMI "Normal Colour" which is ycbcr. The format is the same: Video, not PC levels. The only change is that the 868avi takes charge of the unavoidable ycbcr to RGB conversion, saving the pj from doing that work later by itself (and my reasoning is that the 868avi seems to have much better computing power to have this done correctly than my pj).
HDMI "Enhanced Colour" through the 868avi is RGB-Video, not RGB-PC (the info menu at the TW-500 informs about this). It certainly allows passthrough of btb and wtw (I have to set my TW-500 pj to "Expanded"). Contrary to what has been said about other pjs, with the TW-500, DVI-Expanded means Video levels, not pc levels (this option gives btb, wtw; while DVI-Normal blocks btb and wtw). If the 868avi HDMI "Enhanced Colour" and the TW-500 DVI-Expanded options were pc levels, I wouldn´t have wtw and btb, but I have checked all the possible combinations time and again, and this is the option that gives me a wider dynamic range to begin with (the widest dynamic signal including btb and wtw that I can see with the DVE callibration dvd, to allow for perfect calibration).
So I assume I am not taking any detail away; all the contrary.

..hmm interesting.. I had thought the Enhanced/Standard are really PC/Video levels, at least when it outputs RGB. I had a DVI PJ that only accepts RGB, and it has an option to say Video/PC. The pio "Standard" + PJ "Video", and pio "Enhanced" + PJ "PC" look almost identical. (I was unable to notice any difference.)

With my other HDMI PJ, there is no option to select either RGB/YPbPr nor Video/PC. And the only settings that work well is Standard. Neither the PJ nor the dvdp shows whether it's RGB or YPbPr, I really don't know in HDMI what it outputs. (btw my PJ does not support 480i over HDMI )

to gandley: I think u r the first to confirm the pio does YCbCr in HDMI 480i. This will be *very* interesting for external video processor users. Actually I'm not aware any PJ that takes 480i HDMI. ( I know I'm just ignorant ) Just curious, what PJ r u using ?

re: enhanced vs standard and BTB etc.

A good way to make sure BTB is being passed is to lower the brightness on the player (if it has an adjustment). If you keep seeing the BTB pattern (with appropriate brightness adjust "up" on the target) with each "tick" down in brightness, then BTB is not being clipped. If for some reason the "neutral" PQ settings as indicated on the menu really raise luma by one, then the BTB pattern will be just "black" and would be seen with PC and video levels. Forcing the BTB pattern to be "blacker" will make sure real BTB data is being output (hopefully).

larry

Did they give you an ETA?

No, they wouldn't give a date...