HQV: Vantage-HD processor - Page 2  

Tim,
Since you're taking requests, how about a lower price? ;)
Sorry couldn't resist :D

TM

Tim,

Great to have you here on the forum - looking forward to hearing more information and getting some customer reports about the unit.

We're rather fickle creatures down here - we like things done "our way", that usually means internal test patterns, custom timing output, SDI input, discrete commands and custom aspect ratios...

Ofer,

this has nothing to do with "fickle creatures down" or do it "our way". The information about the capabilities of the scaler are rudimentary, understandable because of its early stage.

We only ask for features which are a standard in competitor products!
But you are right, we always want more and more perfect. ;)

At this attractive price we all want to know what the unit is able of in detail and if the price-performance ratio is as good as we expect from the HW-basis.

Regards
Bernhard

Yes, its not like just hooking up RGB to an autosync projector any more, especially with digital interfaces. Scalers are complex things to interface because there are so many variables, and some displays are very fussy. There's not much point having a scaler at all if you can't achieve proper pixel-matching and frame sync, and that is "all" that people want to achieve.

I think any scaler manufacturer would want to ensure that their users achieved that. Unfortunately, it's not enough to simply set VACT & HACT, and hope that it will work properly. It probably won't. Some displays need to change VTOT, HSYNC etc by just a few pixels. I think a top scaler does need user-programmable output configurations (preferably with inbuilt test patterns and genlock!).

Nick

I miss a couple of SCART connectors for the european customers.

Looking at somebody buying an external processor in this price class, what kind of equipment with Scart connectors should he sensibly want to connect?

The SCART connector has a lot of unnecessary signals for a scaler and the quality of the SCART connector system is questionable.

The Vantage-HD has two YPbPr/RGBS component inputs, 2 composite and 2 S-Video inputs for analog SD. With a SCART-RGBS adapter cable you can connect any SCART-RGBS-SD source. Of course it is questionable, whether two inputs per signaltype are enough. But also the competitors does not offer more analog inputs.

e.g. Laserdisc, do you know of a laserdisc unit with HDMI? :D
TDT receiver, satellite receiver. I know these two will soon come with better outputs, but not the ones I got now.

A DVD player, or satellite or cable box, of course. These do not necessarily have RCA outputs, and RGB from scart is probably OK for interlaced SD, but nothing more. And if that is not good enough, then you would probably want to use a digital interface anyway.

Many DVD players have progressive and upscaled outputs these days, but if you had a Vantage-HD, why would you want the DVDP to do the de-interlacing and scaling? Sources and displays should interface at their own native resolutions.

Nick

Here are some more answers, but what I would suggest is that you check back on the Calibre UK website over the next 2-3 weeks since we'll be posting config info, setup info, distributor info and also you can download product data whcih answers most of the questions which are being posted here.

Answers you want are:

1. Vantage-HD does not support custom output mode/timing/sync programming since it is a consumer product at a very competitive price for an HQV-based unit; we only put that level of functionality on our professional grade products. We are working on professional HQV products but these are not due to market until Easter next year.

2. Vantage-HD will support HDMI/DVI to RGBHV transcode at all compatible input and output resolutions, provided the input is non-HDCP.

3. We presently don't provide point-programmable gamma mapping since the firmware we have written has no concept of this, but we are considering this for a future upgrade. We do provide per-input color temperature selection, but not fine adjustment. I think this is unlikely to be provided as an upgrade in the short term, but it will be present on our forthcoming professional HQV products.

4. We don't provide 5x BNC connectors since we don't have room on the box for them! Also, as HDMI with HDCP becomes more prevalent, RGBHV signals will (unfortunately in my opinion) become a thing of the past. If you want to connect to 5 BNCs on your display, you can use a third-party 15HDD to 5xBNC breakout cable. Our use of a 15HDD (SVGA) connector doesn't degrade the image in any way due to our being particularly careful in the circuit board design to ensure that all the pcb tracks have the correct 75 Ohm characteristic impedance. You might also be interested to know that all the PCBs inside Vantage-HD use gold plated pads where any components connect - we don't just gold-plate the connectors you guys see, we use goldplate internally too.

5. Teranex filters - Vantage-HD has all the currently available Teranex filters preloaded which are compatible with single Realta HQV chip architecture There are other filters such as temporal recursive frame rate conversion algorithms, but these will not run on a single Realta HQV chip if all the other filters are also running, plus, Teranex charge a $6,000 per install license fee for these so we can't include them as standard on our $2,899 box! We are working on a broadcast grade (studio) HQV unit which will be able to run these special filters, but it's going to be serious money.

6. Frame rate conversion - let's straighten this one out since it seems to be causing some misunderstanding:

i) Whether your display says it is compatible with various refresh rates, that doesn't mean it actually runs its internal display device at those rates. Some do (such as the professional displays which Calibre makes) but most don't, they convert everything to 50Hz or 60Hz. There are some notable exceptions, but that kind of detail you need to ask of your display manufacturer.

ii) NO frame rate conversion algorithm can convert rates without some motion judder, whether it be in our Vantage-HD unit or in your display. However we are particularly careful to ensure we don't cause frame tear due to mixing frames or back-stepping 2 interlaced fields. Some displays get this wrong, so if you must convert, do it in Vantage-HD, but avoid it if you can. The exception is if the signal is 480i60 from 24 frame film - Vantage-HD has special cadence correction algorithms which are adaptive to the actual frame sequence rather than just running 3:2 or 2:2 whether or not the encoding was actually 3:2 or 2:2 (many competitor solutions get this wrong). This means Vantage-HD really can decode film-originated material without causing motion artifacts.

iii) The only judder free means of frame rate conversion is temporal recursive filtering, or true phase compensated motion compensated image conversion. We're planning a studio grade product to do the former, expected later next year, expected to cost around $30,000-$40,000 per unit depending on how many algorithms are pre-loaded. The latter is only available in units costing over $100,000 so is not typical in a home theater installation.

iv) Vantage-HD is the only HQV product which has a frequency-agile output mode. I think this is what you guys need to use: On the output menu, you can choose fixed 59.94Hz (yes, we really do generate 59.94Hz as accurately as we can, not just 60Hz as many competitors do), fixed 50Hz, or an 'Auto' mode.

In 'Auto' mode you must connect a display device which can track 50Hz/59.94Hz field rate changes since Vantage-HD will dynamically change its output rate in accordance with the input rate of the video signal you connect to it. Connect a 50Hz input and the output runs at 50Hz, connect a 59.94Hz input and it runs at 59.94Hz output.

Auto mode is disabled by default some displays can't run at 50Hz input, but you can go turn it on via the OSD.

7. We have RS232 control - see the datasheet.

8. Firmware updates are via USB - see the datasheet.

9. We are going to release distributor information over the next 2-3 weeks. We don't sell direct unless you want to purchase 50+ units.

10. The HD-SDI expansion module is due at the end of 2005. It will also do SD-SDI. We don't have a firm price as yet, but expect it to be around $900. This is a true broadcast grade HD-SDI module so is more expensive than the SD-SDI modules some competitors sell.

11. The HDMI expansion module is due early next year, there has not been a decision on price as yet. This gives you 2 extra HDMI channels on top of the 2 you get already. Not sure who has more than 2 HDMI sources as yet though.

Do please check back on our website, this forum still won't let me post the enquiry email address or website info, but you can find it in previous threads.

That's a simple answer - No.

Vantage-HD is the lowest priced HQV product you can buy and already offers more connectivity, more features and more algorithms than its more expensive rivals. In the forseeable future the price will not be coming down.

It's your call - pay $2,899 for Vantage-HD, pay a whole lot more for less on other HQV products, or pay a little less but don't get the awesome image processing and improvement capabilities we offer you. I reckon we are the best value for money already, but you are of course free to spend more and get less, or spend a little less and get far far less, if that is what you want to do......

Am I the only one who feels that manufacturers who brave these forums deserve sainthood for dealing with fickle AVSers? :D

Thanks,
Mike

I though someone mentioned $100 per filter... or is it $50? Well never mind! :D

regards,

Li On

No Mike you are not :o .

Tim, I am grateful for your answers. Thanks!

Tim,

I thank you very much for the detailed answers.

Unfortunately this is an absolute k.o. for me. Without this feature, the Vantage-HD is unusable for me and I am sure also for many other home theater enthusiasts. All serious competitors provide this feature, even with their below $999 price range consumer scalers (e.g. Lumagen Vision DVI). In my opinion it is an essential feature.

I believe the price is fine, especially if the practical image performance delivers what our hopes imagine.

You mentioned "Vantage-HD has all the currently available Teranex filters preloaded which are compatible with single Realta HQV chip architecture". Does this include what Alan mentioned as Teranex' special Enhancement filter?
Or is this reserved to your later professional units?

Tim,

the "Auto" refresh rate mode seems to go into the right direction. But it's still not far enough for my needs. Would you consider to slightly change the refresh rate OSD screen?

Right now you have:

How about this instead:

This would allow everyone to specify exactly what the display supports (again: without internal frame rate conversion). And it would allow the Vantage-HD to output the most optimal refresh rate for the display. It would simply increase the choices for us without increasing the complexity of the OSD screen.

What do you think?

Tim,

Is your mosquito noise filter only on 480i or 1080i as well?

Madshi,
I think Tim has already replied to that question. Even if a display will accept 24 Hz , it will almost certainly FRC it up to 50 or 60 Hz anyway, which will surely make things worse.

Tim,
You seemed to be reluctant to lose RGBHV connections. Is that because you are a fan of CRT projectors? Have you connected a Vantage HD to a CRT yet?

I appreciate what you have achieved with the Vantage HD, and I expect you will sell them like hot cakes, but I do have to agree with what Bejoro said about custom resolutions and timings. Even my cheap and unsatisfactory Centre Stage scaler has that sort of customisation. Lumagen, DVDO and Crystalio wouldn't be seen dead without them.
Have a look at the Output Settings for Fixed Pixel Displays thread on the Lumagen Support Forum at convergent-av.co.uk. That has a large number of custom settings for a wide range of displays. That clearly shows that one size does not fit all, even though it is generally the displays fault. I think this is really important.

Best regards, Nick

Some displays will do FRC on a 24Hz signal, others will use a true internal 72Hz refresh rate. Why limiting the Vantage-HD to output 60Hz, if you have a display which is *really* able to show a 24Hz signal in true 72Hz without any FRC? That simply doesn't make any sense!

Madshi,

I'm a great student of processors and displays, but I'm struggling to think of any that will handle 24 Hz.

Edit: Even with the most versatile of CRT projectors, and I've got lots of specs, the vertical scan frequency almost invariably starts at 37 or 38 Hz.

50 and 59.94Hz is good. 72 and 75Hz might be nice, but DVI (single) and HDMI (A) do not support more than 1920x1080p@60Hz.

I never heard of any processor that went below 50 Hz. Remember if you go too slow, even DVI stops working.

Lets worry about the important things.

Nick

Tim,

Thanks for the info!

Bejoro,

SCART is a European standard and *sadly*, we still have a while before we can discard it. For now, I still have an STB and a PVR that have SCART outputs...

madshi,

Nothing does 24fps today. If it does 72Hz, feed it 72Hz...

I think he's referring to CRT's? Those can have variable scan rates, but then again not even my old sony CRT monitor goes down that low. It starts around 30.

I think they should be 24fps, 50, 50.94, 72 and 75. That would about cover everything. I am a CRT guy and I need 59.94 and 72.

Again: The 6G Pioneer plasmas do accept 1080p24 through HDMI and they support 72Hz internal refresh rate. I've not been able to confirm it yet, but I'd bet they'll repeat each 1080p24 frame 3 times to get to 72Hz. That would be perfect (motion judder free).

That's why 24Hz should be supported. The displays which accept 24Hz will show it as either 60Hz or 72Hz. Of course only the models which natively support 72Hz will benefit from 24Hz.

So do YOU decide what's important?

Excuse me! If I have a display which can show motion judder free 72Hz by getting 24Hz input, then I damn sure want my scaler to offer that! Why should I live with motion judder, just because the scaler refuses to output 24Hz, what it easily could do? HD-DVD and BluRay will output 1080p24, too (at least they are encoded that way)!

What do you mean? Sure, no display will really show 24fps - that would flicker like crazy. But there are some displays which accept 1080p24. I've read in the Pioneer 6G manual that they do accept it, and IIRC, the commercial Panasonics do accept it, too. Unfortunately the Panasonics will show it as 60Hz (I guess), but I'm quite positive the Pioneers will show it as 72Hz.

Sure, a 1080p72 HDMI input would be nice, too, but do you honestly hope for that? I don't think anybody will implement that.

However, there's quite some good hope that BluRay and HD-DVD players (at least 2nd generation players) will optionally output 1080p24. So there again we have 1080p24, which is going to be an important format in the future, I believe. It's going to become "the" format for HD movies. And I expect all displays which support 72Hz internally to accept 1080p24 signals sooner or later.

What he said.

Yikes. So much for the $50-$100 per filter that was mentioned elsewhere. Tim as another posted asked, does it include the filter that Alan was mentioning?

Hi everyone, I don't want to sound like a dummy, but in this field (video processing), I'm afraid I am: in what respect (in a nutshell is fine) is the Vantage-HD from Calibre a better unit than say the iscan VP30? I make this statement based on the cost of both units ($2k range vs. $2.5k range).

I'm looking at getting a 50" Plasma monitor in the next 2 months and I have no object in spending a fair chunk to get the right pre-processor to process DVDs and satellite feeds.

Thanks.

The VP30 is a great unit, but it's deinterlacing capabilities are somewhat limited. It's great for SD movie deinterlacing (480i60 -> 480p24/60) and scaling (e.g. 480p -> 768p). It's less than stellar for video (TV/sports) deinterlacing, though. And it's also rather bad for HDTV deinterlacing.

The Vantage-HD is (probably) quite good at all the mentioned tasks. However, it doesn't seem to offer custom timings for 1:1 pixel mapping.