HQV: Vantage-HD processor - Page 3  

What he said. Hee Hee.

Great. Be sure to make the Output and the Supported Ouput Formats sections of the specs more clear. Saying 1920x1080 means nothing. Saying 1920x1080p@60Hz on HDMI tells me what I need to know.

Ofer,

you are very right and that's why the video processors still have RGBS, Composite and S-Video inputs, that's important. But we don't need that SCART socket in the video processor with questionable connection quality, unnecessary signals etc. - would you agree? :)

madshi,

You're talking about 1080sf24 - a completely different animal. I fully agree that everything should support 1080sf24 (note, it's not 1080p24!!!).

bejoro,

Yes, 4xBNC will be quite sufficient. The thing is, the HQV algorithm requires significant audio delays, so the full SCART connector might actually work better as it also includes analog audio inputs as well.

OK, time for a reality check.
What would the collective AVS wish-list for a reasonably priced high definition video processor include?

Multiple inputs of every type, from SPDIF to HD-SDI.
Each input accepting every possible standard, rate and resolution.
Every HD output, available in every rate and resolution.
Per-pixel and film-mode processing from any input to any output.
Customised everything, configured for every source.
Audio delay compensation, internal test patterns …….

Some might wish for dual independent outputs, firewire, choice of de-interlacer, DD decoding, internal HDD, Terranex video filters, SCART sockets etc., but let’s not get greedy. So I think that’s covered the essentials - does that list sound reasonable?

Well, sorry, no.
No processor has ever done all of that, and probably never will do. There are always gaps in functionality - always. It looks like the Crystalio II and Radiance XT will get closest when they arrive, but look at the price!

Now the proof is in the watching, but Calibre appear to have done a great job with getting that combination of functionality and performance at that price. Tim should be proud of his company’s achievement, and should rightly expect to sell all they can make. Offering 1080p50&60 inputs so quickly may have raised expectations too far, but which were abruptly re-aligned by saying $2899 - take it or leave it. So could anyone reasonably any more?

I’ve been chewing over the 24Hz issue overnight - sad, I know. Personally, I hope this is not implemented for three good reasons, but I can appreciate why some may wish to have it. Raising the frame rates for either inputs or outputs is usually a big deal, but maybe reducing it to 24Hz would not too difficult or expensive. No display runs at 24 Hz native, so Tim will rightly argue that a processor should not output that. But HDMI (A) will not run at 1080p/72, so if your display can 3:3 up-convert, then why not give it the opportunity? Then again, those that accept 24Hz and 72Hz only do that over analogue (which the Radiance will not do at all). Still got mixed feelings about that.

Who really wants the Radiance-HD to be a full-feature, unlimited-budget processor? Like many people here, I would spend $2899, but I would not spend double that.

Regards, Nick

@Ofer: The 6G manual speaks about "1080p@24Hz" and "1920x1080p@24Hz". Is that 1080p24 or 1080sf24? I've always confused those.

@Nick: Why don't you dig up the 6G Pioneer manual and check it out? I've mentioned it many times now. It clearly states that the HDMI input accepts 1080p with 24Hz. So you're clearly wrong saying that 24Hz is only accepted over analogue.

The HW-basis is impressive for the price, no doubt. The list of features is fine for the standard user, but the standard user will not spend $2900 for a video processor. He will stay with the built-in processor that comes with his display or his DVD player.

The home theater enthusiast will not accept, that he gets less than the standard features which are already available in much less expensive products (e.g. Lumagen, DVDO).

Fully customizable resolution timings and a detailed multipoint grayscale/gamma calibration are essential to achieve a very good, film like picture quality. Additional the missing custom timings will prevent the usage of many present and upcoming displays and projectors.

If we have to wait for an expensive professional product by Calibre that provides these basic features, then we can also wait for CrystalioII for $4500 to $5500 or even Lumagen's Radiance for $6000.

Dan or KenLand can correct me, but I'm still aiming for the SX50, and if we can't dial in timing to 60.02 for it then we'll get occassional tearing, so that leaves me out.

I can only whole-hearted agree.

The pattern of "this and this is a must for every serious..." often gets out of proportion and for me starts to feel somewhat embarrassing.

Up to now I wanted to buy a Dragonfly/Mosquito combo, once they have passed through reality reviews, and now it looks I will take the Calibre. Depending on how it performs in NR possibly even without the Mosquito.

Fair enough.

But no processor currently supports 24 Hz output. Calibre have made it clear that they will not, and explained their technical reasons. There will in addition be commercial and strategic reasons - sales gained vs development costs, and the need to leave scope for a better specified professional model.

Anyway, I just thought of another way of considering these issues. Imagine for a minute that Calibre were actually launching two new processors:

1) Vantage-HD, $2899, with the current spec.

2) Vantage-Pro, $5799, with in addition:
Wide range of programmable output rates & resolutions,
Full gamma and grey-scale control,
HD-SDI & SCART inputs,
BNC analogue output,
Multiple source configurations for each input.

Which one would you buy?

What is this? A trick question? The Pro. The Pro is what I need for my FP CRT. Watching film at 60? Please. That is what 72 or 48 is for.

well i was told for PAL its best to sync to 48hz to get things moving like silk, as im not a processer pro i have to go by what i was told but i do know my Sim2 supports this so i would want a video processor at any cost that can do this. I believe the current DVDO HD+ can so i would expect a $28++ HQV unit to do so.
I doubt it would cost alot of bucks to implement this feature.

dustin,

50Hz is optimal for PAL, not 48Hz.

Hi welwynnick,

a very good summary. ;)

Answer: none of them! The first one has not what I need (at least programmable output rates & res.), the second one is too expensive (for me).

Every unplanned change costs bucks in a project, often even more than the developers thought. And every unplanned bucks lowers the profit.

I am also the opinion that Calibre did a fine job with the Vantage-HD. I have to respect Tim's decision and I am not angry about that. I am angry about the fact that I thought I would have found the video processor I was waiting for (like many others) and now it does not support the most fundamental features to drive my CRT-projector or my plasma display. Now I would have to buy a Lumagen VisionHDP for $1500 to get what I need but with less picture quality compared to the Realta HQV and with mutch more less future-proof technology. That is what annoys me. (o.k. I would have saved 1400 bucks, even more if I would have taken the SDI-option).

Hi,

..and every unsold unit because of lack of features lowers profit as well. I cannot understand that processor manufacturers are still designing the same stuff that has been invented many times before.

I even hesitated to use the word "designing". If they all use the same platform in this case, the designing is more an excersize in hiding that they sell the same stuff than presenting something new.

Leaving something out that the chip could do and what was advertized by the chip manufacturer correctly as great feature is just not very smart in my opinion.

To me saying that 24Hz is not possible sounds like they havn't implemented inverse telecine at all. Once you are done to the single frame, you can do everything with it, can't you ?

All a processsor manufacturer has to do, is listen to this forum and writeup a design plan. Can't be that hard, and given the engineers have a heart for a perfect picture, we will see a perfect scaler quite soon. The hardware platform is there - they just don't use it.

Maybe we all should team up, fund some engineers and show them what we want.

Best Regards,
Andreas

Keep dreaming...

Or, as the German writer Hoelderlin once said: "O ein Gott ist der Mensch, wenn er traeumt, ein Bettler, wenn er nachdenkt".

Again incorrect. The newer Lumagens supports it, the Faroudja DVP1080 supports it, and the Crystalio II will support it, too. (I'm speaking about 1080p24sf this time).

Better buy one of those, then.
I wasn't talking about segmented frame format - is that what you really want?

So why all the fuss then about if projectors can pass 48hz, think darinp was saying this was a must have? (not poking you with a stick here just trying to glean an opinion but this has been commented on more than just one forum)
Perhaps 48hz is not directly related to pal?

EDIT

forget that its to get film based material to run 3:2 pulldown real smooth(or 48hz will negate the need for 3:2 and run at 2:2 pulldown) basicly it gives a real fluid picture and the HD+ lets you do that. So i would like that feature please as i dont want any judder after spending near $3000.

Basically I want some form of 24Hz transport. If the displays all want 1080p24sf instead of 1080p24 then that's fine for me, too. Still not sure what the Pio plasmas want. They only say "1080p@24Hz". Not sure whether they mean 1080p24 or 1080p24sf.

actually looking at the prices the pro model isnt so bad, $5799 is £3206
which in truth will be more in line with the top flight Lumagen radiance and cyrstalio models.
Vantage HD is $2899 which in turn is £1603 (im hoping our UK price will be slightly cheaper due to no export costs) which is cheaper than current vps2300 (£2000) and lumagen DVI HD pro (£1900) which is quite a sweet deal then considering its HQV

I think the pro model for just under $6K is a poster's hypothetical, not a real product at that price. Obviously the price of anything determines partly who will buy it. I won't buy something I do not want or need just because the price is low. Yep. Guess I'll buy a bla bla right now even though it uses outdated 480i video deinterlacing and 1080i bob, come on I'll buy it because it is one bit better. No thanks, I'd rather wait a bit and spend up to twice as much and get what I need or want. No, I can't spend $50K to get it. But if I can send $3K, I can spend $6K. Remember $3K is really often $2.5K and $6K is really often $5K.

So you are saying I am a dreamer and would be better off with thinking about the stuff I said? Thanks for your input.

I could backup what I said with stuff already present here in the forum. Watch closely at the facts in the spec sheet of the realta chipset and you will find that it already contains plenty of features people here are asking for. Add to that a custon gamma control (video equalizer), an input switcher matrix and high level menu system with plenty of presets.

Anyway, you don't have to agree, but it would have been helpful if you had added reasons why such a plan would not work out. You seem to know...

Regards,
Andreas

You're welcome :cool:
Products are made by companies and/or entrepreneurs, and not by aggregated wishful thinking, which declares partisan benefits as the measure for commercial success :rolleyes:

So is it safe to assume without requiring an engineering degree to figure out all of this stuff that to maximize film and video performance of the Ruby, you need to send it 1080P24SF?

Will the newer Lumagen, the Faroudja DVP1080 and the Crystalio II be the only video processors to support this in the near term?

I don't think that would apply to most people. Algolith, Optima, NEC and Calibre will sell a lot of scalers to people who would rather have a Crystalio 2 or RadianceXT. I can justify spending $3k on a processor, but not $6k, and I think a lot of other people are likely to be in the same position. Buying on value, not just on quality; that's not unusual.

Yes

1080sf24 is to maximixe film on the Qualia, NOT video. To maximixe video on most anything you want 1080p59.94.