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Crestron responds to Control 4, Adagio at CEDIA - Page 2  

post #31 of 279
Any indication what the sales channels will be for Adagio? Will they try to stay with the existing installer/dealer network, or move into retail channels?
post #32 of 279
can audio be distributed via CAT-5 or speaker wire / line outs only? can Adagio also stream music from a PC and support other formats such as FLAC?
i'm currently looking at reasonably priced audio distribution systems and would like to be able to use existing speakers in most zones rather than in-walls. xm satellite radio support is a requirement. i like netstreams approach but it does not scale much outside of audio distribution. front-runner to me right now is Yamaha's updated MusicCast that includes XM Connect-and-Play support. i like the flexibility of the desktop client.
i haven't got the chance to look at all of Adagio's features but the press release sounds very interesting. it is absolutely expandable, being directly supported by Crestron, but i'm sure Crestron can also control the Yamaha. so if i decide to expand my home automation outside of audio distribution, the Yamaha can still be integrated.
the Yamaha i can insert into my system with absolutely no additional wiring necessary (without going wireless either). i'm not so sure yet with the Adagio...
post #33 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
I disagree.
Comon Alan, Have a sense of humor. You gotta admit he is a funny guy.
post #34 of 279
Not to interrupt the Pro vs DIY debate again, but did anyone get a MSRP on the keypad/lcd wall units? They look pretty nice in the PR......can the meta-data be fed by non-Crestron systems such as Escient..etc...

Also, someone stated that the Adagio is a full control unit as well..is that correct?

Does that mean later I can add touch panels without having a separate Crestron processor?

If so, that provides a nice starter system, and then a more reasonably priced upgrade price for those of us that may only have 1-2 touch screens....

thanks,
DC
post #35 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by collomd
Also, someone stated that the Adagio is a full control unit as well..is that correct?
Correct, it has a control proessor built in with RS-232 ports etc. I can think of no reason it should not be able to receive meta data from non Crestron systems.
post #36 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by collomd
Not to interrupt the Pro vs DIY debate again, but did anyone get a MSRP on the keypad/lcd wall units? They look pretty nice in the PR......can the meta-data be fed by non-Crestron systems such as Escient..etc...

Also, someone stated that the Adagio is a full control unit as well..is that correct?

Does that mean later I can add touch panels without having a separate Crestron processor?

If so, that provides a nice starter system, and then a more reasonably priced upgrade price for those of us that may only have 1-2 touch screens....

thanks,
DC
While I didn't get the list price the Adagio has a basic CP2E for control system. See the link below.

http://www.crestron.com/features/adagio/

Can you add without another processor? Yes. That unit can actually serve web page control because it does have an ethernet processor.

Dealer Dave (Not DIY Dave) :D
post #37 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Richardson
While I didn't get the list price the Adagio has a basic CP2E for control system)
I know what you mean by basic Dave but just to clarify for those not familiar with Crestron, there's really nothing basic about it. It'll do everything the Pro2 or AV2 processors do but just doesn't have as many RS-232 ports or expansion slots for additional RS-232 cards etc. So if you need more than (2) RS-232 ports you'd need to add a Crestron external RS-232 expansion module.
post #38 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by memnoch2
can audio be distributed via CAT-5 or speaker wire / line outs only? can Adagio also stream music from a PC and support other formats such as FLAC?
i'm currently looking at reasonably priced audio distribution systems and would like to be able to use existing speakers in most zones rather than in-walls. xm satellite radio support is a requirement.
i haven't got the chance to look at all of Adagio's features but the press release sounds very interesting. it is absolutely expandable, being directly supported by Crestron, but i'm sure Crestron can also control the Yamaha. so if i decide to expand my home automation outside of audio distribution, the Yamaha can still be integrated.
the Yamaha i can insert into my system with absolutely no additional wiring necessary (without going wireless either). i'm not so sure yet with the Adagio...
Adagio supports traditional centralized speaker distribution. XM is in either of the two versions. Adagio would be the wrong solution if you wished to interface into a third party music system. Go with a control processor which can be had much less expensively ( although you have the issue of programming ). In theory, any control processor can utilize Crestron's Windows Media application and steam music and control. Adagio does indeed have a Ethernet card. I am not certain if the new OEM'ed servers support FLAC or wav. I have cost prices on most of the products and ship dates are from December '05 to March '06.

AD-PAD $400-500
TPS-4L $1300
ADAD $2400
CEN-IPOD $700

I will withhold retail on ADAS1,2 and 4 until I find out what MSRP. I was told in the booth that the ADAS1 would retail for 2400 but I do not know for certain.

Joe:

I think you misunderstood that I was referencing myself with the pompous ass deflated comment. QQQ is indeed very funny.

Alan
post #39 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiblesolutions
New panels now require Ethernet as well as cresnet. Alan
I have 2 runs of Cat5 at each keypad location, can Cat5 wire be used instead of Cresnet ? I know that with Lutron, you can combine some of theCat5 wires, in effect increasing its gauge to what their control wire requires .
post #40 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJF
I have 2 runs of Cat5 at each keypad location, can Cat5 wire be used instead of Cresnet ? I know that with Lutron, you can combine some of theCat5 wires, in effect increasing its gauge to what their control wire requires .
Most certainly. I use the orange pair for data high and data low and split the rest of the pairs for power ( blue, Bl/wh and BR for +24 and Gr,GR/wh and BR/wh for ground ). That provides sufficient cooper for power and the twisted pair ensures that the data on the RS-485 data bus arrives without issue. The second CAT5 is for Ethernet. You were smarter than I. My CT-1000 prewires only have cresnet ( whereas my TPS locations always get Cresnet and at least 1 and sometimes 2 CAT5 cables ). Most TPS panels support video and bidirectional audio. Thus if you wanted to use the panel as an intercom you would need a third CAT5. I do not use touch panels as an intercom station but one could. You structured wiring is fine. On the TPS-4L you will get to use .png files and if you wish to move up to the TPS2000 or 3100 use the extra CAT5 for video on the touch panel.

It is also possible to inject power remotely. But you would need 3 wires ( Y,Z and G ) as well as the +24 from the local power supply.

Alan
post #41 of 279
Thanks Alan .
BTW, you're a funny guy too . Those spelling errors are hysterical . :)
post #42 of 279
I recently attended CEDIA. Was impressed by both Control4 and Crestron Adagio. Am looking at focusing my companies efforts on one or the other. I understand there are Control4 dealers that also have been using Crestron for a long time. Does anyone have any initial thoughts on the two systems. My understanding is that Adagio is Crestron's answer to Control4 and the lower market user. Any comments would be appreciated. We're a small company and don't have the resources to to focus on both systems
post #43 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob0408
Was impressed by both Control4 and Crestron Adagio. Am looking at focusing my companies efforts on one or the other.
I was impressed...I am looking...and company's not companies....just kidding!!!

On a serious note, Crestron seems to have the history, but Control4 seems to be quite popular here (judging by the thread length). In all honesty, I haven't taken the time to read that thread due to the length, nor have I used either system, so I can't provide much more help than that. I couldn't resist cracking a joke though.
post #44 of 279
I am a bit confused about the ADAD vs. the ADES. Is the first required for control and the second for input sources? The Crestron web site has the same description for both.

For a 12 zone system with dual am/fm tuners, xm, the large server, ipod connection and LCD keypads in each zone, does it total about $20,000 (this is kind of extrapolating costs earlier in the thread)? Would that be (1) ADAD, (1) ADES, (1) ADAE, (1) ASAS-3, (1) centipod & (12) AD-pads? Then some tuner cards on top?
post #45 of 279
[quote=query]I am a bit confused about the ADAD vs. the ADES. Is the first required for control and the second for input sources? The Crestron web site has the same description for both.

QUOTE]

ADAD is the main unit and the ADES is an audio expansion unit. The first is the brains and the second allows you to expand the system. Don't need the ADES if your system is smaller than 6 zones but you do if you have a larger system.

Extrapolating costs is some what difficult as you can use keypads or touch panels -- and I suspect there is more equipment coming that is just not ready to ship. C4 has no problem announcing products that may never ship but Crestron is only showing products that are to ship within 3 months. However, I did a qucik calculation earlier and the ADAD, CEN-IPON and ADAS-1 would retail for just above $5500 dollars. 12 keypads may cost an additional 4800-6000 depending on whether MSRP is 400 or 500 ( and I am uncertain. At any rate, even excluding the price of the ADES, which you would need to expand the system to 12 zones it is substansially under 20k. I should think 13-14k is more realistic price. Speakers, wiring and installation could very well bring the cost of a 12 zone system with CD server, XM tuner and IPOD to 20K--but that might also depend on the cost of the speakers you selected

Alan
post #46 of 279
Alan, those prices are installed, or list before installation?
post #47 of 279
Prices are for equipment. My price cannot reflect what any particular dealer will charge. Obviously, wiring, materials and the price of speakers are excluded. You might find that installation of this sort of system would be in line with what might be charged for Russound, Niles or C4. Programming could be done by the dealer or by many of you on this forum. No expertise in porgramming languages is required. No software is necessary. It requires you to enter the driver for the source equipment save for those parts of the system such as the IPOD or CD server which will auto discover. If you had a separate CD player you would only need to enter the appropriate driver for it. A plasma? The appropriate serial driver. The system would automatically be programmed.

This would require an other thread but I see some 20,000 views for the C4 thread for a company with a suspect history and a product that has taken forever to come to market. Yet Crestron has a proven track record, is the leader in the category and has finally made available a product at a price point with a feature set that ought to set the wires chattering. Yet the response has been tepid here.

Alan
post #48 of 279
Alan, not meaning to fire the DIY vs. Dealer debate much more, but I think the tepid response has to do with the fact that this is a product that pleases a small market. As a hobbyist I want a toy; while the end result (an automated home with audio distribution) is nice, what I really want is a toy to tinker with (much to the chagrin of my family). While C4 might have a "suspect history and a product that has taken forever to come to market" they appear to be turning a blind eye to dealers that are selling them to the hobbyist market. Crestron does have a "proven track record" (and they do make great products) but part of that track record is a rather hostile stance to hobbyists. I know that there are dealers that are willing to bend the rules, but they are the exception, not the rule.

I am curious as to how the dealer community will receive this product. I asked about the install cost because I wonder if this product is much easier to install than the older products. If it takes an installer x hours to install a $20K product and the same number of hours to install a $30K product it poses a challenge to the installer. Lets say that in the past the installer charged 50% for install ($15K) is the installers time now worth less because the product is cheaper; or do they change the same install price? If the latter how many consumers will choose a product that has a 75% markup for installation? Honestly I feel C4 has the same pricing issues as Adagio does. There will be resistance from the well established installer community, newer (hungrier) installers won't have as much to lose. I hope Adagio does well, competition is good. I will continue to look at Adagio and C4, I just hope that one day, either (preferably both) of them will be more friendly to the hobbyist.
post #49 of 279
Could we please stop with the myths (directed at Steve) and the attempts to create scenarios that don't even exist. Personally, I don't see how the reposnse here is "tepid" Alan. The product has just been announced, what are people supposed to do dance for joy and yell from the rooftops? Secondly Steve, Control4 is not turning a blind eye to dealers that sell to the hobbyists market because they don't mind selling to the hobbyist market any more than AMX or Crestron does. And Crestron does not have a "track record that is a rather hostile stance to hobbyists". I'm a large Crestron dealer and Crestron could care less whether I sell to hobbyists. There has been a large Crestron community on yahoo for years that is full of DIY partcipators. The product was simply not an "off the shelf" product, pure and simple. Adagio is much more of an off the shelf product and that means many more DIY will be purchasing it. This would have been a fun thread if we could talk about the product.
post #50 of 279
Steven

While I love toys they still need to work after all the DIY hours that I put in. If the price for the same design of a C4 system and Crestron Adagio were the same I would pick Crestron hands down. The reason why is reliability from my personal experience. These systems we install all have a more or less even playing field price for install of speakers, keypads, etc.

Very very often dealers don't make money if much at all on installation of products. Labor costs are crazy to figure out. If we only made money on install labor we couldn't afford to be in business. Custom is very much like that.

One customer I left earlier who has 10000 questions and is very new to home automation, touchpanels, plasmas, CD manager etc asked what his DirecTV bill would be as we activated some satellite receivers for him. He picked out the plan etc but still asked. I'm kind of like it is what it is! Kind of like gas prices.

There are two way for installs to be billed. Fixed bid or time and materials. Both are a crap shoot with who wins. If a company is really pressed to come under bid on labor will they cut corners to do so? Some will and some will step up to the plate and eat some labor to maintain quality.

Dave
post #51 of 279
Who is the OEM for the ADAD? Was there any discussion of adding a feature allowing the ADAD to stream files from a remote server or NAS box instead of just the internal disk? I'd like to see them support streaming from a NAS box and ditch the internal hard drive in one model. There are a few RAID 5 1TB+ NAS boxes that are pretty cheap that can store a lot of uncompressed music.
post #52 of 279
The prices for the equipment still seem to be almost twice the price of C4 .
post #53 of 279
And a BMW is more than twice the price of a Yugo.
post #54 of 279
QQQ, yes there is an underground community for Crestron but you can hardly say that makes for a friendly stance to hobbyists. I am not looking for "an off the shelf product"; I program for fun at work and home, why not extend that to my love of home theatre & electronics? I am not sure why my post generated such vitriol, I always try to have an even tone, apparently I have failed.

Dave, I completely agree; Crestron has been in business a lot longer, the chance they got this right out of the box is very high, and as such if it provides the same functionality at a similar cost the decision is in Crestrons advantage. To that point back to the topic at hand...

What can Adagio do for lighting automation. This is one of my big draws to C4. I like the idea that I can have one system with common keypads and programing that handles both audio and lighting (but where is the video :mad: ). From the literature on the site I'm not clear as to what you need to add to control the infiniNet dimmers. As to programming of lighting I assume that Alan's comment as to "no software" would not apply? I really like the idea of the Cen-Ipod. it mentions that it can control multiple Ipods, any idea how many? Can you rate songs through the interface?

Steve
post #55 of 279
Speaker A is more than twice the price of speaker B. I guess someone is just making more money. I always tell my customers wallly mart speakers are just a good as any other speakers.

My wife bought two racks are few weeks ago. One cheap plastic $7 one from walmart the other was a $18 from Lowes. Care to take a guess which one works better than the other.

I'm not talking about 5% better I'm talking about 200% better. Plastic stiff fingers or flexible metal ones. There is a difference. Only the person who uses both would know how much better one is over the other.

Dave
post #56 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Richardson
And a BMW is more than twice the price of a Yugo.
And a Ferarri is 5 times the price of a BMW, so what's your point ?

MY point is that Alan said earlier that this system will cost about the same as C4, it's not .
post #57 of 279
Steven

The Processor in the new Crestron line can control anything Crestron makes as well as IR and RS-232 devices. Number of Ipods it can handle would be over 200 as the interface box 'hangs' on Crestrons network. Just a different ID for each box.
post #58 of 279
I think the system will be closer to Control4 than is being presented here. I don't think it will be twice the price.
post #59 of 279
AJF

I don't shop for the cheapest. I shop for reliability as I only want to buy something once or one that will last. Your milage will vary.

If you want cheap go to walmat. Want to be a beta tester go by way of C4. Want a true tested proven track record .............

That is my point. Crap or get off the pot. Don't complain. Do something about it. Prove us wrong. Eat enough crow from C4 and I'll program your Crestron system for free.
post #60 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
I think the system will be closer to Control4 than is being presented here. I don't think it will be twice the price.
Thanks for replying in an intelligent manner rather than using that very, very, old car analogy that Dave used in his usual abrassive manner .

The discussion involved comparing Adaggio to C4 very early in this thread . Doing so on price is elementary in such a discussion .
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