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Official Pioneer 4360/5060/Elite Experiences, Set-up, Questions & Pictures Thread!!! - Page 16

post #451 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I had both remotes and the sources were Time Warner Cable HD and BB's video loop of trailers and commercials.

Looking forward to your observations!
post #452 of 5593
Yeah, me too.

- Chris
post #453 of 5593
I should have my 1130 tomorrow afternoon...
post #454 of 5593
Hello all,

Sorry it took me so long to post this review but it's been a long day. As I previously stated yesterday, one of my local Best Buy had just setup a new Pioneer 5060 right beside a Panasonic 50PX50u. I would like to thank the local departmental staff for allowing me to play with the settings on both panels as they normally don't allow customers access to them. Another good thing was that they were preparing to move plasmas around later near closing time and after some conversations with the manager I was invited back to view the displays in the RPTV area (low lighting) while they reconfigured the plasma shelves. Both plasmas were connected by monster component cables to the BB video loop. This best Buy sells Time Warner cable programming so they were able to switch between the Best Buy DVD video loop and Time Warner HD offerings. Here are the settings I used for both plasmas:

Pioneer 5060:
AV Selection: User
Contrast: +40
Brightness: +4
Color: -12
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -1

Pioneer 5060 ADV Settings:
Pure Cinema: Standard
Color Temp: Mid
DNR: Low
Mpeg NR: Low
CTI: Off


Panasonic 50PX50u:
Picture Mode: Standard
Picture: +25
Brightness: +3
Color: -4
Tint: -2
Sharpness: 0
Color Temp: Normal
Color Management: Off
Video NR: Off
Mpeg NR: Off
Black level: Light

Now on to the review.


Normal store lighting:

These two juggernauts were placed in a reviewer's store viewing preferred location, the last isle of Best Buy's flat panel displays where there are no overhead lights directly shinning on the panels.

When I first saw them, they were playing the standard Best Buy video loops. I immediately noticed that both were in torch mode with the Pioneer looking like pure garbage. I have never seen a Pioneer look so uglyjagged lines everywhere, color bleedingjust disgusting. On the other hand, the Panasonic looked more pleasing but, to a lesser extent, it showed some of the same jagged lines and color bleeding. Luckily there was a sales rep close by and he pulled out both remotes from the remote treasure chest on the bottom plasma display shelf.

After adjusting both displays to the settings listed above, I could once again see why there are so many faithful followers in both Pioneer and Panasonic camps. Both displays were amazing compared to the 50 Philips on the bottom shelf and the Samsung to the left of the Pioneer. However, keeping my attention only on the Pioneer vs the Panny, viewing a Cnet clip and a Chicken Little movie trailer resulted in Pioneer's colors looking fresher and crisper while the Panasonic's looked like a red shirt after its first wash kinda washed out. Not the really dull washed out, but the you know this red shirt is not new anymore washed out.

The clips continued and some Discover HD underwater clips began to show. Once again I was just awed by the Pioneer's rendering of the clips as I stood 5 feet away. Extremely rich colors with a very 3D look to them. One Best Buy customer who happened to walked by immediately stopped and said Wow. It looks like a real aquarium. The clip started to show some blue glowing jellyfish with a black background and I instantly saw a difference in black level. The Pioneer definitely had deeper blacks compared to the Panasonic. The blacks almost reached the glossy black of the Pioneer's bezel. As far as producing deep blacking in bright ambient light, the Pioneer wins here (must be that pure color filter).

More wildlife clips continued and my eyes were just glued to the Pioneer. Everything looked like I could reach and grab it where the Panasonic had a look to it that I just could not place my finger on at that time. More and more customers passed by and commented on how beautiful the Pioneer looked.

After a while I started to remember Rich Harkness review and wondered why he reported so much noise in the picture. At 5 feet, the Pioneer clearly was superior to the Panasonic. Then I got within 1 foot of both screens and I finally saw what Rich was saying. There appeared to be more noise in the Pioneer picture than the Panasonic. A WB TV show clip was showing and the time and I definitely could see more noise (looked like mosquito noise) around the characters on the Pioneer. The Panasonic really shinned on this clip with the smoothness it presented.

As a Tim Burton's Corpse Bride movie clip started to play I saw something..the Panasonic..its smoothness was flawed. Standing 1 foot away from the panels, I noticed the Panasonic was smoothing out the picture detail that the Pioneer showed flawlessly. On close-ups of the characters clothing I could clearly make out the black chenille fabric like details on the Pioneer while the Panasonic looked plain black. Trying to increase the sharpness on the Panasonic helped but it also introduced video noise.

I asked one of the sales reps to switch to the Time Warner feed and show the Georgia/Tennessee game. Once again I saw the same thing.the Panasonic was smoothing picture detail. On one close-up shot of a Georgia player, I could see his jersey stitching on the Pioneer while they were completely void from the Panasonic's picture. Smoothing the picture is great but losing picture detail as a consequence is unacceptable to me.

As the game continued I also started to notice a slight green tinge to the goal posts on the Panasonic where the Pioneer showed pure yellow.

Again I was glued to the Pioneer's picture. Absolutely breathe-taking in the color rendition department. The turf had more true-to-life greens on the Pioneer.

I had seen enough. In bright ambient lighting, the Pioneer wins in my book. The Panasonic looked great but it just wasn't the Pioneer. The colors just did not excite my visual cortex like the Pioneer. I could really see myself having ADD with the Panasonic.it just could not hold my attention. Deep blacks were superior to the Pioneer in ambient lighting, but most here agree that low-level lighting conditions is where it counts..


Low Level (RPTV area) Lighting:

Around 8:45PM, I returned to the store to take another look at these 2 displays in movie time light settings. Although this was not a completely dark situation, the video staff placed the two panels with their screens facing the rear wall of the RPTV area and turned off all RPTVs.

First up more Best Buy video loop clips

A Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire clip started and both displays were excellent in the deep black territory. It was a draw. The Pioneer was not any brighter or darker than the Panasonic. However I saw slightly more detail in the dark areas of the Pioneer compared to the Panasonic. At the beginning of the clip there is the Warner Bros logo on a black wooden door that opens. I could detect the door outline faster on the Pioneer as it opened verses the Panasonic. Also the wood's texture was slightly more legible on the Pioneer.

The usual Safari West clip showing the Las Vegas strip reared its head and although both displays showed the same deep blacks, the Pioneer wins in my book due to the colors it can produce. I felt like I was there on the Pioneer verses viewing the Las Vegas strip from behind a extremely clean glass that the Panasonic presented. Both panels showed camera pans smoothly with Panasonic winning as its pans were slightly smoother. Again I noticed that the Panasonic was smoothing out picture details.

A little after 9:00PM, they turned the feed to a Time Warner offering of HBOHD. Alien vs Predator was showing and I was completely engulfed in the picture the Pioneer displayed. Explosions were rich with color. As the characters ran thru the maze of the temple, I could make out the stone wall textures. It was just beautiful. When the girl and predator made it back to the surface, the snow was pure white with a hint of blue on the Pioneer while the Panasonic had a slight red tinge to it. Both displayed the dark, snow falling sky equally.

To summarize my babbling, I was extremely impressed with the Pioneer 5060. Once properly calibrated, it showed all of the visual stimuli that Pioneer is famous for. On top of the extremely rich and accurate colors, Pioneer has included ablack phobic's acceptable rich deep blacks. Frame all of that in its gloss black bezel and it's just a work of art. Although I did see some of the additional noise in the Pioneer that Rich saw in his review, I can conclude that it is from the source. Yes Panasonic excels in producing a milk chocolate picture, but it inadvertently smoothes out fine detail. As I said before, that is unacceptable in my book. I prefer the less filtered but still taste great presentation of the Pioneer. I know others will think differently.

The Panasonic is also a great display but it just doesn't have enough for me to allow it to be one of my primary displays. It looked too much like a crt to me. I prefer that one technology not mimic another (if I wanted the crt look I would go buy a crt). If you like the somewhat flat, less 3D look that a crt gives you, then the Panasonic is for you. I prefer that my eyes be stimulated. It sure comes close but, the Panasonic just doesn't do it for me.
post #455 of 5593
Thread Starter 
D-Nice, thanks for your observations and your excellent write-up. You described exactly what I've been seeing since I got my 5061--as I've stated, it gives me a sensation of a fog having been lifted as compared to my previous Fujitsu plasma. Friends have also commented on the 3D appearance of HD on the Pioneer.

It's good to have another data point on the Pioneer vs. Panasonic comparison issue. The differences of opinion underscore the subjective nature of these comparisons. I guess it comes down to one's particular sensitivities and pet peeves--black levels, picture noise, picture detail, motion anomolies, etc. Obviously, anyone thinking of buying should see these plasmas for themselves.
post #456 of 5593
D-Nice, thanks for the great review. I also saw the Panny 50u and Pio 5060 side by side this weekend. I think your observations are very accurate. I especially like the fact that you posted the settings for both displays.
post #457 of 5593
Thanks for your work D-Nice!

I continue to build excitement in anticipation of my 1130. All you observed with added callibration ability.

Questions for the sake of science:

1) How did you decide on the settings for each? The Pio contrast seems mighty high. When you observed the Panny looking slightly flatter than the Pio, did you consider upping the color a notch on the Panny to try to equalize?

2) When you saw noise on the Pio, it read like it was not noticible at > ~ 4ft. Is that accurate? And I wonder if DNR and MPEG NR settings on a higher setting would make a difference for the Pio.

3) I wonder about turning up sharpness on the Panny to counter the "smoothness". I guess it wouldn't make stitches appear if you can't see them at all though.

3) You had the Panny black level at "light". What would happen at "dark", maybe with brightness up or other compensation? Does it lose gray detail?

In any case, it adds to the conclusion that both are great TVs and, at the very least, the Pio is equal in PQ to the Panny.

Thanks again........
post #458 of 5593
Tnanks guys. It's only fair to include the settings that were used in the observation.

I'm now going to sit back and wait on my local Tweeter to place a 1130 on the wall right beside the 50PX500u.
post #459 of 5593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

When you saw noise on the Pio, it read like it was not noticible at > ~ 4ft. Is that accurate? And I wonder if DNR and MPEG NR settings on a higher setting would make a difference for the Pio.

I've seen this noise as well on HD, and upping the DNR to mid greatly decreases it...in case you want to watch from 1 foot.
post #460 of 5593
Just wanted to say thanks to D-Nice as well. Thanks for your time and effort.

The idea that Pioneer has improved their black levels is just huge for those of us that prefer the pio image overall.

Thanks again...
post #461 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

Thanks for your work D-Nice!

I continue to build excitement in anticipation of my 1130. All you observed with added callibration ability.

Questions for the sake of science:

1) How did you decide on the settings for each? The Pio contrast seems mighty high. When you observed the Panny looking slightly flatter than the Pio, did you consider upping the color a notch on the Panny to try to equalize?

2) When you saw noise on the Pio, it read like it was not noticible at > ~ 4ft. Is that accurate? And I wonder if DNR and MPEG NR settings on a higher setting would make a difference for the Pio.

3) I wonder about turning up sharpness on the Panny to counter the "smoothness". I guess it wouldn't make stitches appear if you can't see them at all though.

3) You had the Panny black level at "light". What would happen at "dark", maybe with brightness up or other compensation? Does it lose gray detail?

In any case, it adds to the conclusion that both are great TVs and, at the very least, the Pio is at least as good in PQ.

Thanks again........

Great questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

1) How did you decide on the settings for each? The Pio contrast seems mighty high. When you observed the Panny looking slightly flatter than the Pio, did you consider upping the color a notch on the Panny to try to equalize?

The Pioneer settings are extremely similar to my 5050 settings with the contrast setting compensating for the bright lights in Best Buy. With the Panasonic being in Standard mode in those lights, anything less than +25 for the picture setting made it look very dull. The other settings I borrowed from the Panny thread. I actually toned down the both contrast levels (+29 for the Pioneer and +10 for the Panasonic) when I viewed them in the RPTV room. Bumping up the color on the Panasonic made fleshtones too red for my tastes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

2) When you saw noise on the Pio, it read like it was not noticible at > ~ 4ft. Is that accurate? And I wonder if DNR and MPEG NR settings on a higher setting would make a difference for the Pio.

Yep. Silky smooth picture on the Pioneer at > 4 feet. I didn't like what I saw when I bumped the DNR and Mpeg NR up, but please see what you think when you get your 1130.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

3) I wonder about turning up sharpness on the Panny to counter the "smoothness". I guess it wouldn't make stitches appear if you can't see them at all though.

When I bump the sharpness up, it did bring more detail out but also introduced mosquito noise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

3) You had the Panny black level at "light". What would happen at "dark", maybe with brightness up or other compensation? Does it lose gray detail?

Setting the black level to dark will kill all detail in the dark areas. I also got this from the Panny thread.
post #462 of 5593
Thanks for your answers D-Nice. Sounds like a reasonably valid test thus far. Kind of wish it was in its own thread though. We might not see many Panny owners' comments here.
post #463 of 5593
I know just the thread to duplicate the post
post #464 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

We might not see many Panny owners' comments here.

That could be a good thing.

The wars, they never end.
post #465 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post

That could be a good thing.

The wars, they never end.

It won't be a war if we look at things fairly and openly.

I guess I'm an optimist.
post #466 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I know just the thread to duplicate the post

Great idea. A great thread to build on too!

Here's the link if anyone wants to beam up:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6328226
post #467 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

It won't be a war if we look at things fairly and openly.

Agreed. I was just horsing around.
post #468 of 5593
Great job, D-Nice. Having them side by side like that finally gets us a really good contrast and comparison! Thanks.

- Chris
post #469 of 5593
Great review and makes my waiting for my new toy ever so frustrating.
All though I think there are some anomalies in the settings that may perhaps in this case pull one display up or down over the other.
But even if these two sets were properly calibrated by a professional and then tested side by side, that would possibly create only a minor shift of a few percentage points in either direction in terms of over all picture quality. Both companies over the years have pretty much perfected plasma technology to its best. I can only imaging how things play out next year in the 1080p zone
post #470 of 5593
D-Nice,

Thanks for your review. No offense to you man but it sure is obvious who the fanboys for each brand are...hehe! On one hand, we have Rich, whose reviews favor Panasonic and on the other we have D-Nice whose reviews favor Pioneer. It's funny how difficult it is to get an objective review when people are influenced by their preferences and feelings but that's what these things are all about!

It all boils down to the fact that each display is very good and it's definately going to depend upon what you prefer as far as PQ is concerned as well as price and features. Tough call for most of us!

Thanks again,

Drivie
post #471 of 5593
Thanks for the review D-Nice. You continue to reinforce the notion that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Your choice for best picture quality comes down to whether you prefer a smooth, film-like quality with a tradeoff in detail or a crisp, detailed quality with a tradeoff in smoothness. There is no objective "better" set. Determination of better is an individual choice.

Since I've already pre-ordered by 1130, I'm happy to see a review from a different perspective. I appreciate that both you and Rich have gone to all the trouble to develop and publish your reviews.
post #472 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivie View Post

D-Nice,

Thanks for your review. No offense to you man but it sure is obvious who the fanboys for each brand are...hehe! On one hand, we have Rich, whose reviews favor Panasonic and on the other we have D-Nice whose reviews favor Pioneer. It's funny how difficult it is to get an objective review when people are influenced by their preferences and feelings but that's what these things are all about!

It all boils down to the fact that each display is very good and it's definately going to depend upon what you prefer as far as PQ is concerned as well as price and features. Tough call for most of us!

Thanks again,

Drivie

Thanks for the complement. Both sets are excellent but I preferred the Pioneer look. That said, my money will be given to Pioneer for my main displays. However, I am looking at purchasing 2 37PX50u for the guest bedrooms in the house I'm having build in 1st quarter '06.
post #473 of 5593
My 1130 arrived Saturday and I spent all day Saturday and half of Sunday running wires, intalling a wall mount etc.

Im new to the HD arena so I wont bother posting my detailed opinions because Im just amazed at the quality of HD and probably miss the subtle differences. I plan on diving into the details over the next week or so. I will say the 1130 looks very nice (how is that for a technical observation).

The one problem I do have is that there is a hum. Perhaps a 60 cycle type hum thats coming from the 1130 speakers. It seems more pronounced with the DVD signal (HDMI) than from the cable box signal (HDMI). I plan on switching wires and supplying power from different circuits to isolate the hum if I can.

Anyone have any idea what would cause this.

I do not have power conditioning on the line.

Thanks

John
post #474 of 5593
I have a question for you guys as I'm a bit lost here.

I haven't gotten my 5060 yet, but I'm so excited that I'm looking at threads, reading the owners manual and jotting down notes.

I have an HD8300 DVR from Cox that will be used for my TV Guide so to speak. But yet, I see there is an option for the TV guide as well for the TV. Is this only if you have the Cable Card will this option work ??

D-Nice... Love the write up man... put away some of my fears about getting this TV. We are upgrading from a Sony Trinitron 32" that we bought back in 95 and are hoping we didn't go wrong. My question to you is... are the setting you posted for NORMAL Viewing or would those be the burn in settings ??
post #475 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trblmkr View Post

My question to you is... are the setting you posted for NORMAL Viewing or would those be the burn in settings ??

I think for burn-in you will want to turn down the contrast from 40 to around 25-30. You may even feel that you like it set at this lower level after the initial burn-in period. I have mine set at 28. D-Nice explained that he had the contrast up at 40 because of all the harsh lighting conditions at BB. I'm sure D-Nice will provide his opinion when he has time.
post #476 of 5593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trblmkr View Post

I see there is an option for the TV guide as well for the TV. Is this only if you have the Cable Card will this option work ????

No, you don't need CableCard for this. In fact, my CableCard seems to block the TV Guide info, requiring an antenna hooked up to the B input to retrieve it. TV Guide seems to work reasonably well, although people's main complaint is that the channels are not listed in numerical order.
post #477 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trblmkr View Post

D-Nice... Love the write up man... put away some of my fears about getting this TV. We are upgrading from a Sony Trinitron 32" that we bought back in 95 and are hoping we didn't go wrong. My question to you is... are the setting you posted for NORMAL Viewing or would those be the burn in settings ??

Thanks for the complement. I would not use a contrast setting of +40 until after the burnin period. I currently have my 5050 set to +30 and find no reason to push it any higher. Brighness, Color, Tint, etc. are fine for pre and after burnin settings, but please tweak them to your liking.
post #478 of 5593
Last Friday I took delivery of my PDP-5060. I just wanted to take a minute to comment on the dealer I bought the TV from, since I don't see them mentioned here very often. For those shopping for Pioneer consumer sets, you already know there are a limited number of authorized places to buy from. avdeals.com (same company as plasma.com) is in fact authorized. I had a great experience with them. They took the time to explain the process in detail when I placed the order (never ordered something this large in cost or size via the internet). The product shipped approx. when they had indicated, and they used SEKO to ship it to my front door. SEKO wasted no time getting it here, and they were also easy to work with. The box arrived in perfect condition.

I do believe the hallmark of a good company is how they handle issues when things do NOT go as planned. To that end I can't comment on avdeals, as everything went exactly according to plan. But based on my first experience, I would gladly do business with them again.

Pics are attached for those who are interested. The new furniture hasn't arrived yet, so everything is strewn about. I have to say I absolutely love this TV from an aesthetic standpoint as well as the image quality! The pictures don't do it justice as it seems the screen coatings interfered with the picture taking (obviously this isn't a problem for the nake eye...just the camera). I didn't get the exposure quite right either, so it appears it's on torch mode...it's not.
Home Theater in shambles
5060 - Monsters Inc
5060 - Gladiator
post #479 of 5593
Ok I'm wondering what is the "dynamic" settings used for, as it looks awfully bright and I would deffinitly not watch movies or TV in that mode, what's the use for it, specially when you can't even adjust it?
post #480 of 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gfraiha View Post

Ok I'm wondering what is the "dynamic" settings used for, as it looks awfully bright and I would deffinitly not watch movies or TV in that mode, what's the use for it, specially when you can't even adjust it?

To catch your attention in the store when the plasma is only one of a dozen adjacent models.
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