Team AVS-DIY Black Screen Project! - Page 3  

Any news on the new RS-MMMaxx-LF screen?

I hope you guys let us in on your secret formula before jimbra does :) all us DIYers are just waiting to see what the team has come up with .


Bruce

mission....do you have a part number list of the BEF material you were trying to get. I can see if my 3M rep can sample me. I might be able to trash an old 20" LCD to get some BEF, but there are so many different layers in there it is hard to tell which films are the BEF, and DeBEF.

Ok, here we go.

Once upon a time, recently..., I stumbled upon a garage that was being left unused. I was bored, with nothing to do

I heard a rumor that maybe 45,000 people might wander into it soon, so being rather extroverted, I decided to go "Exibitionist" and throw up a 140" version of Light Fusion.

A happy camper I know who recently procured a 122" LF w/MMud-SM and a JVC HX2U D-ILA w/500 lumens was so very nice as to allow me to utilize that PJ to project an image.

Why would I use such a low lumen PJ for a location that had white walls, garage windows on the double wide door, and a light Grey floor? Am I stewpid or sumpthin'? And I'll have to set it up 21' feet away from the screen, thereby reducing those 500 lumens to approx. 200-250? I must be CRAZY!!!!

Naw. I'm being 'crafty'. It seems that somewhere else close by in the neighborhood, there are 10 other people who have built extensive Home Theaters, ranging from 25K to 35K, and all of 'em stickin' to "under 100" in dark environs to assure optimum viewability.

Me? I got a Garage. In the attached House is a actual "Family Room" Theater w/60" DLP over a Fireplace, (...how it go there is a wonder... :rolleyes: ) but it's located right inside the Front Door, so I'm supposed that the oiwner of the home decided it would have been improper to have it running when people just wandered in. So apparently, he just abandoned the garage to whatever I could temporarily make it into.

My Playroom.

So I got my Toys together:

Ingersoll Rand 720 HVLP Spray gun
Husky 32 gal. 5.5 HP Compressor

1-- 122" x 69" Plexi mirror (140" diagonal 4" short of 12' !)

.....and something very special.

A Brand New version of MMud.

Base Mix 1:1:1 MMud using all the required components. NO substitutions. No altering of amounts recomended.

.....and then the wierdness started.

After having read here on AVS of attempts by others to use "Clears" to acheive gain, all the while with my having focused on inproving viewing in "moderate" Ambient light, I ran across some promising Ambient light results by one "pb_Maxxx" that got me ta thinnin'

"What if...." the use of such "Clears" combined with the MMud-SE varient could produce both the "Fusion Glow' as well as maintain or improve Contrast without Crushing whites?

The trouble with using too much Behr SM in the MMud-SE mix (...over 3 Oz per 3 Quart mix..) is that the resulting darkening of the Top Coat restricts it's use to PJs that have not just adaquate light output, but to those having "Laser-like" projection beams, lest the 'off the screen' brilliance LF is so noted for be unduly attenuated.

pb_Maxxx's particular mix utilized a different Silver Metallic, a "Radiant" variety with a very much lighter hue of Grey in the base.

......as well as a magical ingrediant that while mentioned on AVS before, had never had it's use amount to anything spectacular, just somewhat promising.

So I wrote to pb_Maxxx, and he graciously consented to collaborate and work to combine what IMO is the best of both worlds.

So without further ado:

You take 1 Quart MMud 1:1:1 Mix
--- consisting of the following "NON-NEGOTIBLE" ingrediants ----
1 qt. Behr UPW Flat Exterior
1 qt. Behr Deep Base Flat Exterior
1 qt. Behr White Opal Pearlescent "Premimum Plus with Style"
16 Oz Distilled Water

Total cost of above is approx. $40.00

To that quart of MMud you add:

1 additional quart of UPW Flat
16 Oz. 'more' of Distilled water
16 Oz of MinWax Acrylic Polyurethene :Satin Finish: (...the magical stuff...) -$14.95 -
32 Oz* of Delta Ceramcoat Metallic Silver #02603
(the latter comes in 8 Oz. Bottles @ 3.99 per at Michael's stores everywhere. )

*...and you read me rightly. a FULL QUART's worth of the new SM. That should tell everybody how much Silver there is, but without all the "Grey" pigmentation in the Behr S.M. I was reluctant to try a full 32 Oz so I opted for 24 Oz. instead, and all the coming posted images resulted from the weaker variety. Had I but only known.......@^*(*^$#@^(!!!!! :mad: I would have used another 8 Oz.

I shall NOT make such an ommision again, I assure you!

All ingrediants, when mixed together, produce a very much thinner MMud mix than ever before. This resulted in an extreamly fine and wet spray, and also resulted in what at first seemed a disaster! Using my normal method of spraying, and the same approximate speed and distance accross and from the Mirror's surface, I at first was delighted at the amount of coverage I was receiving. On I went, merrily squirting to my heart's contentment. Down from the top I went, row to row. I reached the bottom, stepped backwards for a overview.

GAAAAaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There were THREE, mirror wide (10' !!!) lines of runs cascading down the screen !
Desperate, I stripped off my white Tshirt, and wiped away the bulk of it. I rinsed the shirt out, wrung it as much as I could (....the garage had a bathroom w/Sink...Thank you, Jesus!) and then wiped the area again, and repeated this at least 5-6 times, until I had the area of the mirror where the runs were completely restored to clarity.

Now all I had to do was to repaint the cleaned area, and try to blend into a distintly obvious line of paint that stretched across the screen from one side to the other at approx 1/4 of the way down from the top. Never had I attempted anything so remotely as drastic a 'repair'. And get this....I had on 2 remaining days before perhaps someone would wander in and see the fruits of my labors.

But the new mix made it easy!!!!

I increased the speed (not the distance) I moved acrossed the mirror by 4 fold, to the effect I was 'thickly dusting' the surface. I let that "DRY" for 2 hours, then repeated that step about 5 times, trying to keep from overlapping the existing paint all the while. Once I acheived a parity of coating, I let the screen dry for 10 hours, then gently dry sanded (Large fine grit sponge ) the bottom 3/4s to knock down the coverage a tad bit, then I did likewise across the union of the new and old coating.

I then went over the entire screen with a coat applied so rapidly that the entire 140" diagonal Monster got coated in 5-6 minutes! I let that dry for 2 hours, then spot applied across the dividing line. Once dry, it was completely gone. Completely!

So I had my RS pb_MMMax LF Screen complete.

And whaddya know what?

..............dis is what.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...lightDarla.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...inthelight.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...mbientshot.jpg

.and these results, in the worst example possible of over 600 watts of Lighting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...omuchlight.jpg

As in many such cases, the performance was/is better than the camera can capture because of the higher degree of room lighting than what is coming from the screen. Next post will show the differences.

The following is an example of what the image looks like in real life, when zoom removes the overbearing light from the equation somewhat.

Please note, these lighting levels a FAR in excess of anything represented before here on AVS, and considering the application is NOT a Black Screen approach, pretty much it aces out all that has come before.

And it will only get better, lemme tell ya!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...etlightfar.jpg

Zoomed

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...mbietlight.jpg


Depp in lottsa light

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...omuchlight.jpg

Depp in Ambient

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...aytimeDepp.jpg


Depp in Darkness

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rknessDepp.jpg

Ok now.

Caveats.

No, it's not a Blackscreen app.

..but, NO Blackscreen can give you this, even in the Darkness.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...loosidways.jpg

NEVER has a mix with so much Silver within has such an unlimited viewing cone. Thank Light Fusion and it's equality of light disbrusement behind the Image for that, if you will. (...and you MUST!)

Now for some classics to which all ya all can judge the quality of the image.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ADesertBoy.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...vaandCrowd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...stheplunge.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...azedpriest.jpg

Here are some more ambient light shots.


Tully
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...llyAwakens.jpg

Snowman
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...leSnowhead.jpg

A shot in ambient from afar (22')

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...nsterGroup.jpg

.and zoomed to eliminate extraneous light;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...roupzoomed.jpg

Black levels? It's got 'em

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...foranApple.jpg

So as not to subvert this thread with too much empasis on one application, I'll move all this stuff to a new dedicated thread in the near future. But I did promise to post up my results first on this, a thread dedicated to everyone realizing some decent ambient light application.

Mirrors are available, more so I dare say at present than any Film or Filter in any sizes even remotely approzimating what LF can accomplish.

I'm hoping that soon, some one of of you will locate or make available the material to compliment what Light Fusion can already accomplish. Combining the attributes of Black Screen "Filtering" with the extremely excellent "Glow" and wide viewing angle afforded with Light Fusion should effectively destroy the need to spend more for less in the pursuit of "the Best".

It's in all ya all's hands to improve on this app, or do something better.

Gettchyerselfs busy.

BTW,

By my estimation, the LF Screen in question actually increases perceived gain while allowing exceptional ambient light viewability. Without hotspotting or reducing the viewing cone.

Now waddya thin will a'happin' when I up the Silver Metallic ratio in this Mix?

Zounds! Things ARE looking brighter!

Wishing all ya all well. I mean that. And I hope this app helps those who want something NOW get the results they want NOW. I'll always be available to aid or assist. All it takes is an Email, as mony in the past will attest too.

And also the following of the instructions, and the usage of the materials to a "Tee".

Anything else, and it's YOUR creation, not mine.

....ain't that right pb_Maxx? I a couldn'tda done it witout cha!

A lesson for all. Work together. Rely on another's efforts. Don't disparage. Encourage. Together, we all can do what no single R&D Dept can aspire to.

Here's looking atcha all!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...oulookinat.jpg



....and all ya all Mfg Screen makers and sellers?

You can go ahead and follow Leeloo's example here. We'll all understand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...a/AgoodCry.jpg

313...

Sounds like maybe that 3M material might not work out. If people won't be able to get the sizes they want, it might be better to look else where.


What about 3M Scotchlite VIP Reflective Sheeting. They use it for making street signs. Actually they use a Diamond Grade but that contains a grid pattern through it that would create a bad SDE.

-Sean

MMan: Thanks for your detailed posts. That sounds very promising. What would be very helpful would be to place some black-out cloth over half the image to get a good comparison shot. (It's just tough to make any determination on screen shots in a vacuum--they really need to be compared to something). Any chance of snapping a few more photos?

Sorry for the double post--but where do you pick up a plexi mirror?

MMan, that's a very complicated application process. Is it required to use a wet Tshirt to wipe down the first coat, or would a wet towel work as well? :p

So lemme see if I understand your proportions:
So the 1 qt of MMud contributes approx. 9oz each of UPW, DB, and WOP, plus 5oz water. So the final mix is:
41oz UPW
9oz DB
9oz WOP
21oz water
16oz Minwax Poly
32oz Ceramcoat Metallic Silver

...which works out to 32% UPW, 25% CeramcoatMS, 16.5% water, 12.5% Minwax Poly, 7% DB, 7% WOP.

I wonder how much the DB and WOP contribute (especially the DB) in such small proportions. I wonder if even the WOP does much when it's only 1/14th of the final mix. Could you get results virtually as good with 37% UPW, 29% CeramMS, 19% water, 15% Poly? (Same proportions with DB/WOP removed.) Or 46% UPW, 36% CeramMS, 18% Poly before thinning. Could make it much more economical for someone who only plans to paint one screen and doesn't want to buy a can of DB and a jug of WOP just for a few ounces.

Of course, with that simplified mix you are getting fairly similar to benven's silver mix, which is 75% aluminum, 18.75% white, 6.25% poly. He used a lot more aluminum in his mix. If that CeramMS is as bright and non-gray as you say, maybe benven's mix would benefit from using it instead of aluminum. (And then it would be latex instead of oil, another win for most of us -- 12 parts CeramMS, 3 parts UPW, 1 part Minwax poly.)

So I think you gentlemen are converging on something pretty similar, once you boil it down to its essentials. The biggest differerence in your application, of course, is that you do it on a mirror. For those who are unable/unwilling to do that, maybe the higher silver content in benven's mix is a good thing? Thoughts?

Gary

it depends on how you look at it. maximizing purity and visual quality with a slight increase in gain. or maximizing gain with a slight decrease in purity and visual quality.

if you're going to change the mix up that much... then get out your sprayer, spend some money, do some R&D, test and then let us know if 'your mix' even comes close. that way, we can deem a smaller ingredient in your mix to be of little relevance... and omit it as well.

when you simplify and cut corners with little regard as to why something or a particular ingredient works the way that it does or what makes it important... you end up with inferior results... and then the complaints and naysayers come out. it doesn't matter if it's 1% of the total mix... it's part of the mix for a reason.

this mix was designed specially for Light Fusion. if you choose not to do a Light Fusion screen... you will not get the same results. it's just that simple.

therefore, the mix is just as MM stated. no deviations. do not remove the WOP, do not remove the BASE. if you do, you can kiss your $200 mirror good-bye... as they are critical to the overall transparency of the topcoat while keeping the finish flat. without it, you will end up with a topcoat that is both too opaque and with too much sheen. and an opaque topcoat on a mirror results in decreased vividness, less pop, crushed whites, decreased viewing cone, etc.

just my 2 cents worth...

The longer distance doesn't reduce things like that unless the lens itself has different light output at different ends of its throw. Light dropoff with longer distance to the screen is one of those myths that keeps going around, as light dropoff like this doesn't apply to things that are zoomed to the screen size. In fact, the longer throw can help your uniformity (reduce hotspotting) and give you more gain out toward the edges of a gain screen to a middle viewing position.

--Darin

Did you guys come up with a formula for a non light fusion screen?

Well........., that "myth" is stated as fact by just about everybody I've ever heard of in this business, especially at the longer throw distances.

But everything else you said seems to make good sense.

It does bear some checking out though, fer sure.

Thanks, Darinp2

Just take the new mix and apply it to a UPW Gloss surface until the Gloss is gone. Spray for acceptable and dependable results.

(BTW....when the new RS-MaxxMmud mix is applied, it goes on so wet, you'd think it would have to dry with a sheen. It doesn't. It's Flat with a Silver undertone in the quantity of SM I added. I can see that amount effectively doubled, so in the long run, the opportunity for all ya all to experiment is ripe for the pluckin'. Pluck away, and enjoy the fruits of yer labers.)

Also:
I fought spraying like a Madman early on, and it resulted in my giving advice on Rolling to a very many, and a substancial number of those folks had a hard time of it anyway.

Spraying this new mix is a dream, as long as you keep moving across the surface.

MMan.

yes, i have tested it without a light fusion screen, and on it's own merit... it's a very nice screen. it puts behr's ss to shame. durotherm and plastex are not even it's league... and it's defintely and upgrade BO. if you like rich vibrant colors and excellent black levels, this mix is for you. with respect to gain... it has only a small amount of gain but not at the expense of 'viewability'. viewing cones and hotspotting are non-issues. and it certainly shows it's colors in ambient light.

but let me say again... this mix is at it's very best as a LF topcoat.

here's a pic of the mix on a non-lf test panel against durotherm (on the far left) and maxxx-digital grey (on the far right)

http://www.zr-tech.com/graphics/incredibles4.jpg

In fairness to mission 313 's thread, I think the discussion of this new LF mix should have it's own thread. However, I would really like to see my oil based aluminum mix up against that giant LF! By the way there is a little something extra in the mix to improve black levels. MM any chance (time) to paint up a panel to have this duel?? PM and I will give you the correct mix. I'm still working on the latex based solution. Very close now.

First, MM excellent results.

A few of things come to mind to ask, if you would be so kind.

1. On your HVLP gun what diameter nozzle did you use or recommend?

* My unit is a Campbell Hausfeld HV1001 Turbine and its gun is equipped with a nozzle/needle that is recommended for medium viscosity such as Latex, Enamels, Glazes, Acrylics, and Oil Based Interior paints. Ratings are 54 CFM @ 4 Psi.

2. Plexi Mirror, does it matter which side is to be spayed?

3. I will be using a 4' x 8' sheet the best size for my application, it comes in 1/8" ($103) and 1/4"($169). Do you have a recommendation here?

*I am leaning toward the 1/4" for stability (no bowing)

My next available time to spray will be about 2 weeks off ( hopefully sooner)

Thanks,

Rich

RS-MMMaxx (this is for the non LF and cost conscious folks)...

1 QT of Behr UPW - Flat ($10)
1/3 QT of Behr Deep Base Flat - ($10)
(3) 8oz. bottle of Delta Crafts - Ceramcoat Silver Metallic #02603 ($4 each)
1 8oz. bottle of Delta Crafts - Ceramcoat Gleams Pearl #02601 ($4)
12 oz. distilled water
12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin Finish ($14)

mix and i mean SHAKE for 2 to 3 minutes before spraying...

enjoy.

pb....so do you think the non-lf mix will be too thin to roll on? I have an HVLP gun, but my screen is pretty big (110") diag, and hate to have to take it down and into the garage. Not to mention quite heavy (2 pieces of drywall spliced, and covered with 1/8" plastic).

ok, in your case, if you can't put some tarp down and mask off your screen... then by all means give it a try. for you, i'd recommend 8oz. of distilled water instead of 12oz. rolling..., even with a fine nap roller, is inherently much thicker than with a HVLP sprayer... and you likely won't get some of the glow effect from the gloss of a high gloss white basecoat... but you'll still end up with a solid visually sound paint solution.

my only concern is... the nap of the roller will tend to 'pick up' some (actually a lot) of the metallics.

hope this works out for you...

I hope you follow my advice, and check back fer sure before you squirt as well.

PM or email for future instructions.

Sure! The SM/MM screen and LF both resulted from good natured duels by CMRA and myself.

Consider this a positive reply and PM me the details needed.

BTW....,
I was asked to post up my results here, so I obliged. But I also stated I'd move the posts elsewhere soon for exactly the same reasons you stated.

Mission313, care to pipe in on this? Your reply will help deterimine how soon the "move' occurs.

Many places. But the larger sizes come direct from the Mfg, and only the best quality & prices come via "connections".

PM or email me for "direct from Mfg" details to avoid any possibility of censure.