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Official 2005 Sony KDSR-50/60XBR1 SXRD Owner's Thread - Page 789

post #23641 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM4963 View Post

Yes, astronauts and more broadly, commercial aircraft passengers - but I know little of the electrical characteristics of that lamp, however it's definately sealed to outside air pressure. In fact, the Philips bulb technology termed UHP is a short form for Ultra High Pressure.

Actually.....nothing to do with this topic..... but, I don't think commercial aircraft are totally sealed, (like a bulb) at least they weren't in the 70's. Because I get ear pressure effects when rapidly changing altitude.
post #23642 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM4963 View Post

How would the lamp resistivity (incl. vapor characteristics) be affected by altitude given that it's contained within an encapsulated, pressurized, sealed glass enclosure? i.e. How would the gas be aware of any change with altitude in either the ambient pressure outside its enclosure or the air density for that matter? I realize that effective cooling will require increased air flow (fan speed) to offset reduced density of the air with altitude, but I would have thought that mechanical heat transfer from the OB and electrical resistivity of the lamp would be unrelated due to the lamp's encapsulation.

I agree that it's a strange reality, but the laws of physics dominate. It's essentially the reverse concept as to why pressure increases with water depth against the outer, sealed hull of a submarine. The artificial atmosphere inside must be constantly regulated ....Or better yet the same principle is at work when a weather balloon expands as is rises in altitude (although no more gas is being added to the balloon). The balloon inflates further because atoms within the balloon are distancing apart.

Now back to the lamp. The lamp itself is the small sealed quartz capsule about 1"x1/8" in dimention and fixed smack dab in the center of the bulb. The capsule is charged with approx 40 atmospheres of mercury vapor, about 600 PSI @ sea level. However during the intense heat of operation, the internal pressure increases to about 2350 PSI @ sea level. The quartz capsule wall will balloon slightly more during operation.

Heat does in fact increase gas pressure within a sealed capsule...think pressure cooker (pressure cookers have that name for a reason).

How about another example of matter expansion/contraction in a sealed capsule due to temperature change?: a mercury thermometer.

...Or another due to fluctuation of atmospheric pressure: a barometer

As operation altitude increases, so does the atom spacing and very slight ballooning of the quartz capsule's wall. Electrical resistance increases requiring more voltage to drive the lamp. As I mentioned earlier, the same concept applies to sealed pressurized plasma TV tubes. It does not apply to CRTs because they are void of gas (practically perfect vacuum).

While true that the air gradually thins with elevation, leading you to believe that the increased air flow is required in order to provide sufficient cooling for that fact alone...the amount of air thinning even at an altitude of up to several thousand feet is not detrimental to air-flow convection efficiency. Rather, it is the phenomena mentioned earlier that is the actual cause of heat increase.
post #23643 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrider2 View Post

Actually.....nothing to do with this topic..... but, I don't think commercial aircraft are totally sealed, (like a bulb) at least they weren't in the 70's. Because I get ear pressure effects when rapidly changing altitude.

All commercial aircraft are totally sealed and pressurized, it's a matter of life and death. Pressurization is mandatory far below even normal cruising altitude. Check out the Wikipedia article on "Cabin pressurization" for a great explanation.
post #23644 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrider2 View Post

I didn't understand that either.....As long as the box was ridged, no change in outside pressure could effect the inside. Else, astronauts would be in serious doo-doo.

The lamp capsule's thin quartz wall does fluctuate ever so slightly in response to external air pressure. Especially during the increased stress of operation. It is not as rigid as you think. The bulk of the UHP bulb itself is just a glass enclosure with a reflective back, and it is not air-tight. One of the conductuive wires (either the anode or cathode) is threaded into a non-sealed eyelet through the bulb's side. The light is entirely emitted by the tiny gas filled capsule at the center of the bulb. This is the active part (aka, the lamp) and source of the discussion.

See my reponse to Steve, it explains things better.

Change in outside pressure, does affect the inside. For example, space suits. The very first space walk (which was done by Russian cosmonaut Alexey Leonov) almost resulted in catastrophe. His suit expanded and ballooned in response to the vacuum of space. He had to release some pressure in order to jam himself back into the space capsule. ..Came very close to getting the bends or even losing consciousness by doing this. Didn't have a choice though, very lucky. They later learned to engineer the suit with more rugged, yet flexible enough materials and built advanced internal atmospheric regulation systems.
post #23645 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

+1^
I was thinkin the same thing as it does sort of defy the laws of physics unless there's something going on we are completely unaware of.

It's actually because of the laws of physics that these things happen.
post #23646 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM4963 View Post

I'm having difficulty locating and extracting the details on the Fan #2 that you describe above in the Service Manual, either in images or parts list although I note it's signals in the schematics. Could you provide a little more than a 'casual description', please? I'm trying to identify and acquire the fans (and the lamp) before I begin disassembly in order to minimize downtime.

I'm pretty sure, but no longer absolutely certain that fan #2 is iidentical to the OB fan. Yeah, I remember it being tucked away in a black ventilation duct in the vicinity above the lamp ballast.

Like I said earlier, I have long since lost the XBR1 service manual and have not taken my TV apart for several years now. When I first revisited this thread, it was mainly out of nostalgia purposes, but it was inevitable that I'd start dispensing advice again.

I do plan on completely gutting it soon knowing that it needs a thorough cleaning. Might even get to it this weekend, I'll get back to you with the exact location and part number after taking a look at everything again.
post #23647 of 23978
OK, final nail in the coffin concerning altitude and containment fluctuation of encapsulated gas.

Just found this article which discusses the problem with Plasma TVs. Funny how the submarine analogy I thought of is mentioned here as well. The same science applies to halogen and UHP lamps.

Read paragraphs two through four here: http://carpesomediem.hubpages.com/hu...cts-plasma-tvs
post #23648 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by KewlK View Post

OK, final nail in the coffin concerning altitude and containment fluctuation of encapsulated gas.

Just found this article which discusses the problem with Plasma TVs. Funny how the submarine analogy I thought of is mentioned here as well. The same science applies to halogen and UHP lamps.

Read paragraphs two through four here: http://carpesomediem.hubpages.com/hu...cts-plasma-tvs

......Once that occurs, the pressure inside the fixtures changes to match the pressure on the outside to equalize again..... The article doesn't address what actually changes the internal pressure.

I understand...The deeper a sub goes, the higher the internal pressure must be increased, or the sub's shell will implode...makes sense. I assume that's done via releasing compressed air inside the sub.

Why do ears pop when you change altitude in an aircraft? Could it be the the plane's atmospheric controls are regulating the internal pressure to prevent the craft's shell from being breached?...I bet so.

So there are tiny regulators on the plasma cells and SXRD bulbs that control the internal pressure?

I see none on my bulb....Where are these little buggers?

This is an interesting discussion, because it peaks my curiosity of how things work. But I totally, still don't see it, and I guess.....a bit OT to carry it on here. Perhaps we need a physics forum to address these concerns.
post #23649 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrider2 View Post

This is an interesting discussion, because it peaks my curiosity of how things work. But I totally, still don't see it, and I guess.....a bit OT to carry it on here. Perhaps we need a physics forum to address these concerns.

I wouldn't get too concerned about that as this thread is dying an accelerated death now that the exchange program has ceased.
post #23650 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by KewlK View Post

OK, final nail in the coffin concerning altitude and containment fluctuation of encapsulated gas.

Just found this article which discusses the problem with Plasma TVs. Funny how the submarine analogy I thought of is mentioned here as well. The same science applies to halogen and UHP lamps.

Read paragraphs two through four here: http://carpesomediem.hubpages.com/hu...cts-plasma-tvs

I have a question......... a Submarine is exposed to far far greater pressure variants than our light bulb. Also, a Sub is pressurized to help negate the effects of many many times more atmospheric pressures than at sea level. The light bulb is encased in a sealed, rigid shell that as far as I know, does not expand. So again, how does this work in the physical sense? It just ain't hitting my smell test meter but again, in my best Sgt Schultz imitation...... "I know nut-ting"!
post #23651 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrider2 View Post

......Once that occurs, the pressure inside the fixtures changes to match the pressure on the outside to equalize again..... The article doesn't address what actually changes the internal pressure.

It does a fine job, but he did fail to mention one critical point. The internal pressure skyrockets within the plasma fixture (and halogen/UHP lamps) during operation. Plasma screens and UHP bulbs are manufactured at sea level and gas charged to be within perfect operating specs at sea level.

Thin walled high PSI gas charged glass capsules do flex ever so slightly during operation. They are not totally rigid, glass will give a little on an extemely small scale. The higher the altitude, the more the glass will flex outward...and we're talking tolerances measured within millionths of an inch here. There is no pressure regulation system to compensate for the issue. Such a design for a UHP bulb would require a ballast containing pure mercury vapor interfaced through a regulator crossed-linked back into the glass lamp capsule. From a cost and engineering perspective......that would be one $$$ and complex design. It's just not feasible for the consumer market.

Quote:


I understand...The deeper a sub goes, the higher the internal pressure must be increased, or the sub's shell will implode...makes sense. I assume that's done via releasing compressed air inside the sub.

To minimize hull warpage, let alone an implosion. Right, you get it. No pressure regulation at all for plasma tv tubes or lamps however.

Quote:


Why do ears pop when you change altitude in an aircraft? Could it be the the plane's atmospheric controls are regulating the internal pressure to prevent the craft's shell from being breached?...I bet so.

Your ears pop in an aircraft because the plane's atmospheric controls allow the cabin pressure to drop to a certain point. It's just enough for us to feel comfortable and most importantly, remain in an alert consciousness. The pressure regulation is to maintain comfortable breathing atmosphere and to minimize stress on the fuselage. Fuselage breaches have occurred in the past due to metal fatigue stress cracks, I don't recall any breaches due to high cabin pressure alone with healthy aircraft.

Quote:


So there are tiny regulators on the plasma cells and SXRD bulbs that control the internal pressure?

I see none on my bulb....Where are these little buggers?

As mentioned earlier, nada.

Quote:


This is an interesting discussion, because it peaks my curiosity of how things work. But I totally, still don't see it, and I guess.....a bit OT to carry it on here. Perhaps we need a physics forum to address these concerns.

Well hopefully you see it now. I agree it is OT to discuss it here, but what the heck.

Read my response to "Torqdog" for added info.
post #23652 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

I have a question......... a Submarine is exposed to far far greater pressure variants than our light bulb. Also, a Sub is pressurized to help negate the effects of many many times more atmospheric pressures than at sea level. The light bulb is encased in a sealed, rigid shell that as far as I know, does not expand. So again, how does this work in the physical sense? It just ain't hitting my smell test meter but again, in my best Sgt Schultz imitation...... "I know nut-ting"!

See my response to "ccrider2". The mercury vapor filled quartz-glass capsule actually does expand, on an extremely small almost immeasurable scale.
...But that same insignificant expansion is a huge factor as to how the sealed gas reacts to electricity.

Although the increased expansion that occurs above sea level is practically nothing, we're talking at least 2350 PSI internal mercury vapor pressure during illumination. The higher the elevation, the more the glass will give on a miniscule level.
*Found an article that claims it's more like 3000 PSI internal operating pressure with typical UHPs: http://www.ercservice.com/lamps/phil...sUHPLamps.html
Unfortunately the author avoided discussing the altitude issue.

Two quotes from same article, more food for thought:

Quote:


UHP Projector Lamps operate at red-hot temperatures of up to 900, sometimes even 1050 degrees C (approx. 1650-1900 degrees F) and contain very high pressure usually in excess of 160 atmospheres and often near or over 200 atmospheres, and in a few cases 300-plus atmospheres.

UHP lamps have pressure well above 30-50 atmospheres even when they are cold. You don't want to drop one and have it break......... think of a hand-grenade!

Finally, of course fan performance decreases as altitude rises due to air thinning. ....But reduction of cooling efficiency (convection) is negligible at even up to one mile of elevation.

Ask yourself this: Why is it that plasma TVs which buzz in Denver, ***_still buzz_ even when their fans are cranked up / running even cooler than the same model sets at sea level***? Now do you see that this is not solely a heat issue? It's a pressure balance issue.
post #23653 of 23978
Sony restarted a new discount program, but the discounts are far less than before the optical block program was shutdown. I posted this information on all of the Sony threads, but somebody apparently thought it would be a good idea to delete them all.
post #23654 of 23978
post #23655 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by splinke View Post

Sony restarted a new discount program, but the discounts are far less than before the optical block program was shutdown. I posted this information on all of the Sony threads, but somebody apparently thought it would be a good idea to delete them all.

Thanks Steve, yeah I noticed your informative posts vanishing and wondered what was up? We greatly appreciate them and see no reason as to why the hard facts were being snuffed out by a busybody.

Do you have any clue as to what the average monetary value of the discounts are? It's probably based on a per model basis, original purchase price and length of ownership...but what do I know?

Anyway, is it a voucher-like program through the Sony store? ...Or is it something more flexible? Do we still have to mail in the serial # label and provide a screenshot?

More details, please.
post #23656 of 23978
I am new to this forum , so forgive me if I am adding redundant information. I contacted Sony regarding my 55" KDF55XS955 due to a bad optical block (just like everybody else) on 11/8/11. Being a little late to the party, I only recently discovered the issue. I was offered the following options:

KDL46EX500 for $710 plus local sales tax
KDL55EX500 for $870 plus local sales tax

To call this a small increase from what I have noticed other people were offered prior to the expiration of the program is being politically correct. I have responded to them trying to negotiate significantly lower options and will post if I have any success.
post #23657 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by KewlK View Post

I'm pretty sure, but no longer absolutely certain that fan #2 is iidentical to the OB fan. Yeah, I remember it being tucked away in a black ventilation duct in the vicinity above the lamp ballast. ...
I'll get back to you with the exact location and part number after taking a look at everything again.

Thank you KewlK. Would you like me to send you the service manual?

Fascinating discussion on the lamp and sorry if I opened a can of worms with a lot of email traffic for you. I certainly learned something, as I'd presumed that the lamp enclosure was sealed to air and pressurized. Good example of how one false assumption can lead to a string of flawed deductions.
post #23658 of 23978
I have to replace the lamp in my 60XBR1 myself for the first time since my extended warrantee expired. Can anyone recommend a store/website with decent pricing?

Thanks in advance.
post #23659 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM4963 View Post

I certainly learned something, as I'd presumed that the lamp enclosure was sealed to air and pressurized. Good example of how one false assumption can lead to a string of flawed deductions.

Yep, just the tiny quartz ampule located at dead center is pressurized with the Hg vapor. It is the sole source of the light.

The rest of the bulb is open to atmosphere and acts as a fancy containment vessel with some very important functions:

-reflectiive aluminum backing widens and converges the light beam (we wouldn't want the middle of the screen to be brighter than the rest)

-external part of the bulb is thickened to be able to withstand the force of the capsule exploding within

-acts as a heatsink for the capsule

-keeps our fingers off the capsule (skin oils would weaken it, causing early failure)
post #23660 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gweeds View Post

I have to replace the lamp in my 60XBR1 myself for the first time since my extended warrantee expired. Can anyone recommend a store/website with decent pricing?

Thanks in advance.

Since this is your first experience replacing the lamp, I recommend you purchase the whole assembly. It's possible to save a few more bucks by purchasing a standalone bulb and transplaning it into the plastic housing, but it may be too much of a pain for ya.

What you need is an XL-5100 with a 100/120watt UHP Philips bulb, Osram and other alternatives tend not to be as bright or reliable.

Search Amazon, It has several sellers with very fair pricing. Many with free shipping to boot.
post #23661 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by splinke View Post

Sony restarted a new discount program, but the discounts are far less than before the optical block program was shutdown. I posted this information on all of the Sony threads, but somebody apparently thought it would be a good idea to delete them all.

Hi splinke,

My 60" XBR1 recently developed a yellowish tint across the entire screen. I think the issue only surface now because this tv set was very lightly used. Wished i had read this thread earlier. I have not contact Sony support yet but reading your thread, it sounds like I pretty much missed the boat already right? What are my options if any?

Thanks,
pc527
post #23662 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by KewlK View Post

Since this is your first experience replacing the lamp, I recommend you purchase the whole assembly. It's possible to save a few more bucks by purchasing a standalone bulb and transplaning it into the plastic housing, but it may be too much of a pain for ya.

What you need is an XL-5100 with a 100/120watt UHP Philips bulb, Osram and other alternatives tend not to be as bright or reliable.
Search Amazon, It has several sellers with very fair pricing. Many with free shipping to boot.

Even then be very careful as to who you purchase from. I bought a bulb online that was advertised as a phillips OEM replacement. When I received the bulb it was obvious that it wasn't the phillips bulb that was supposed to be sent. The bulb didn't even match the photo on the webpage. Fortunately, with a bit of persuasive communicating, I was able to return the bulb and had them credit me for the return shipping. I wish I could remember which merchant it was.

As always, "may the farce...... uh, make that force be with ya"!
post #23663 of 23978
The link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1373179

I have tried for years to crack how to do this with only minimal success.

Sit back and be patient, I'm certain that at least some professional calibrators have discovered the secret by now. Here's hoping that one if them is generous enough to spill the beans.
post #23664 of 23978
Sony's new program, which started on 11/1/2011, works the same as the old one, including removing and mailing your serial number along with pictures of your TV. However, the deals are significantly lower. See the OPTIONS section of my web site for details.
post #23665 of 23978
Earth to SteveM4963. Do you ever check your PM box?
post #23666 of 23978
I need everyones opinion asap. My ballads is broken, and the shop wants $200 to fix. Would you just dump it, or pay $200 to fix? The shop needs to know by tomorrow morning. Thanks guys.
post #23667 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by enyouartist View Post

I need everyones opinion asap. My ballads is broken, and the shop wants $200 to fix. Would you just dump it, or pay $200 to fix? The shop needs to know by tomorrow morning. Thanks guys.

You mean the lamp ballast is broken. That is a very easy fix. The part is only worth $50 and can be found at many parts dealers online. Like here:

http://www.tristatemodule.com/p-4647...df-e50a10.aspx
post #23668 of 23978
Is it really easy to fix? I'm not that technically savy.
post #23669 of 23978
Quote:
Originally Posted by enyouartist View Post

Is it really easy to fix? I'm not that technically savy.

Yes, it is a 15-20 minute job tops. It's so easy that I would do the install for a relative or friend free. I wouldn't ask for much more than $20 for someone nearbye.

Find a buddy who feels comfortable turning a few screws and your in luck. You'll also need a pair of tweezers or needle-nose pliers to release the original ballast board from a few plastic snap tabs. I used to remove it from time to time to clean all the dust off. It's a dirt magnet.
post #23670 of 23978
I called the shop and told them the job is easy and they're charging me too much. Now they are saying that they fixed it already and that I have to pay them or else they are keeping the tv. I don't know what to do now.
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