or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › New calibration disc
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

New calibration disc - Page 3

post #61 of 2307
Thread Starter 
OK guys. I took the time to polish a couple details today. If you have Beta 1.x throw it away please. It has a few minor errors. I have corrected all known on Beta 2.0.

I have also:
Added a brief readme.txt file which explains the levels used in each pattern
Changed gray window pattern's labelling to indicate percentage instead of IRE. I also have levels indicated on gray windows.

My original grayscale was built using 16-236 so the individual step bar's levels would come out as integers. (steps of 11 for 5% steps). I have changed it to the more proper 10.95 steps and rounded each bar appropriately for 16-235. Exact calculations and 5% step levels are indicated in the readme.

Vern:

Maybe you could take a look and verify my colors are at least as accurate as DVE pro. When I compare to it, my numbers look like yours. The colors never come out perfect (i.e. I get 15 and 17 instead of the original 16 occasionally), but mine were as, if not more accurate (less deviation from the original level) than the reference discs I tested.

I am now providing a link here for the folks helping to take a look at it. It is not for noob use at this time, please do not D/L it unless you have something to contribute. I will leave it there for a limited time so the gurus here can have take a look. Let's be sure my colors are OK before anyone takes it and calibrates their display using it. I'm confident they are, but I'd like a second opinion when comparing apples and apples (i.e. vs a commercial DVD, not a PC pattern).

It's about a 3Mb download:
http://tn1.companypostoffice.com/sco...ta_2-0_VTS.zip
post #62 of 2307
I can verify your patterns directly in YCbCr.

Ron
post #63 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

I can verify your patterns directly in YCbCr.

Ron

Great. I think. To be clear, are you saying you got the beta and tested it and it tested OK?, or that you have the ability to and will do it then let me know? Thanks
post #64 of 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Great. I think. To be clear, are you saying you got the beta and tested it and it tested OK?, or that you have the ability to and will do it then let me know? Thanks

Something interesting and funny... I recorded this to a cd and put it in my computer dvd player to test the write and it shows "now playing - New Sex Now..Life's Ultimate Pleasure..."...LOL. Where the hell is it getting that from? Mind you, this was at work , on a machine that had PowerDVD installed, but movies aren't played on it. I wonder if that was grabbed from some online movie db, according to the name of the cd or a file on the cd?
post #65 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yarrumc View Post

Something interesting and funny... I recorded this to a cd and put it in my computer dvd player to test the write and it shows "now playing - New Sex Now..Life's Ultimate Pleasure..."...LOL. Where the hell is it getting that from? Mind you, this was at work , on a machine that had PowerDVD installed, but movies aren't played on it. I wonder if that was grabbed from some online movie db, according to the name of the cd or a file on the cd?

No, definitely not. You have a problem or at least issue with your PC.
post #66 of 2307
GetGrey:

Downloaded the beta, looks good. I show +-1 on the 75% patterns and everything else looks spot on.

BTW, I did discover that ATI cards behave very differently from NVidia cards. The ATI color controls are apparently implemented at an earlier point in the data path and do affect the values retrieved by MWSnap.

Also, you need to watch the chroma value on the ATI cards. It needs to be set very close in TT to the default of -42 (NOT 0!!!!) so as not to mess up the color tracking. Raising it appreciably will clip the reds long before it affects the green and blue.

Vern
post #67 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Vern:Thanks very much for looking. I don't use a HTPC but I hope the information on the cards is helpful to the other guys.

As for color patterns, I saw the same +/- 1 (digital levels) on my disc but I also saw it on the other commercial discs on the 75% color patterns. Typically in the black component of the colors (i.e. 15 instead of 16, etc.) Gray patterns and windows were dead on.

Since my creation is as close as the commercial discs I'm now comfortable letting it rip. It is definately close enough for a DVD. It was painful to figure out, this method was about the 8th method attempt.

Before I remove the Beta version from it, I'll probably add in a few more extra patterns. Specifically:
* 5% step gray windows (vs 10)
* 100% color windows
* green and blue ramp patterns (just for completeness)
* possibly some variation on the colorbars.

re: colorbars, I'm considering some sort of animated pattern which may make it easier to see. I've always had a hard time with color and hue, finding the just right spot was always tough. I liked Avia's pattern better than DVE but it's just a personal preference. Maybe something better than both? Any suggestions of ideas for this item anyone?

I'll see if I can find a way to do a resolution pattern but don't have high hopes for that. It's not something I use, but I'll try to do it anyway.

Right now it happens to be setup to match the Accucal software (per Bob). For my own purposes, I'll probably stick the 5% gray windows in place of the 10% steps. For those with Accucal they can always skip the "multiples of 5" windows. Jeff can let me know f he'd like to see a custom version to fit Accucal.

dr1394: I would sure like to have a Y/C delay pattern. Do you happen to have one you would be willing to contribute? It would save me some time. I don't have anything to open the .ts files linked in your signature, and wouldn't use them without permission anyway.

If anyone sees anything wrong with the brief explanations and logic in the included readme file (specifically regarding the levels for contrast patterns) please chime in and let me know.

Thanks guys,
Scott
post #68 of 2307
I've finished looking at the test patterns. Here's the results:

1) 75% color bars and windows are just a little off. Your YCbCr values are (with correct values in parens):

Red = 65, 100, 210 (65, 100, 212)
Green = 112, 74, 60 (112, 72, 58)
Blue = 35, 210, 115 (35, 212, 114)
Cyan = 131, 156, 46 (131, 156, 44)
Magenta = 84, 182, 196 (84, 184, 198)
Yellow = 161, 46, 141 (162, 44, 142)

2) The checkerboard pattern is 0 for black and 255 for white. Is that what you intended?

3) The Ansi Lumens pattern and white field after that is 255. Is that what you intended?

4) The red chroma ramp is on a background of 5 instead of 16.

As for the Y/C delay pattern, what is your preferred format? I actually "author" in YCbCr, but I could give you a .bmp or .tga (or any other format that Photoshop can save to).

Ron
post #69 of 2307
Hi Scott,

Any word on when us non-pros can get a copy of your test disk file? I'm interested.

Thanks.
post #70 of 2307
Noob question Earlier in the thread you mention this was created for DLP, will it be beneficial for a person wishing to calibrate an LCD projector, like my Z2

Thanks, Randy
post #71 of 2307
I have a stupid question:
What's the prper way to burn this to a DVD for playing on a DVD player?
I have ezdvd creator 6. Should I use nero or something other than roxio's sw?
It plays fine from the HTPC, but it doesn't do black's and whites as well as the DVD player.
I'll be calebrating a PLVZ2 & Westinghouse 37 over component & DVI.
I'll provide feedback on my findings.
Thanks in advance.
post #72 of 2307
I only played with this briefly - I like the simplicity and the order. Very useful and I expect to replace DVE and Avia for no-nonsense calibration.

Thanks Vern for checking out the patterns - too busy to look at the patterns on my HTPC lately, and I can use your findings as a reference too.
post #73 of 2307
GetGray

I prefer the checkboard patterns for tint/hue rather than the little flashing squares. The more area of each color - like AVIA PRO. The tint/hue patterns on AccuPel are good too.

SethS from A/VPRO has a real simple DVD he authored that has a great pattern design that made absolute sense for doing tint/hue - but you have to get a training to get it - and it is a copyrighted DVD anyways.

Between A/VPRO, Accupel and AVIA PRO I have way to much $$$$ invested in patterns! I also have DisplayMate, ColorFacts, CaliBug, and Nokia Monitor for computer usage. Then to show the calibration customer - more down to earth stuff they should buy - I have AVIA (2 copies) and Sound & Vision. Never did buy VE, DVE or DVE/PRO....yet. I am sure I forget some....Did I mention that AVIA PRO includes the SMPTE, CEA and GENESIS patterns?

So I get a chuckle out of you guys trying to scrounge up some DIY patterns!
post #74 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Quote:


I've finished looking at the test patterns. Here's the results:

1) 75% color bars and windows are just a little off. Your YCbCr values are (with correct values in parens):

Red = 65, 100, 210 (65, 100, 212)
Green = 112, 74, 60 (112, 72, 58)
Blue = 35, 210, 115 (35, 212, 114)
Cyan = 131, 156, 46 (131, 156, 44)
Magenta = 84, 182, 196 (84, 184, 198)
Yellow = 161, 46, 141 (162, 44, 142)

Ron, thanks very much for taking a look at them. Being a perfectionist, I'm concerned about the erorrs. Do you know if DVE has the corresponding small errors? Are these very small errors insignificant or are these bad? I don't want to release a disc with my mark on it that's not right. I would hope these errors would be very small and imperceptable from mortal instruments? Even better, I would be tickled to know the same errors existed on DVE/Avia Pro. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me. Along those lines, I see the same errors on RGB from DVE as are on mine (+/-1 here and there), but I have no way to measure the component values, that I know of

Quote:


2) The checkerboard pattern is 0 for black and 255 for white. Is that what you intended?

3) The Ansi Lumens pattern and white field after that is 255. Is that what you intended?

Yes, this was intentional. My logic was that when measuring the ANSI contrast/lumens, one is looking for maximums. I figured by using 0 and 255 that any user calibration that allowed for BTB or WTW would not result in maximum brightness or extingusiment. By using 0 and 255 one would be insured the display was as black and as white as it could be.

If it was set so reference black and white (16/235) were the darkest/lightest the display could do then it woudln't matter. But if the user had for instance allowed WW information to pass, checking ANSI at reference white (235) would not have turned the PJ as bright as it was set to go when displaying say 240.

If this is wrong, I'm happy to set the ANSI patterns to 16 and 235. I did add this information in the readme so folks would know.

Quote:


4) The red chroma ramp is on a background of 5 instead of 16.

That is an error, I will correct it. Thank you.

Quote:


As for the Y/C delay pattern, what is your preferred format? I actually "author" in YCbCr, but I could give you a .bmp or .tga (or any other format that Photoshop can save to).

.bmp woudl be great!

Thanks again Ron!
post #75 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvoncolln View Post

I have a stupid question:
What's the prper way to burn this to a DVD for playing on a DVD player?
I have ezdvd creator 6. Should I use nero or something other than roxio's sw?
It plays fine from the HTPC, but it doesn't do black's and whites as well as the DVD player.
I'll be calebrating a PLVZ2 & Westinghouse 37 over component & DVI.
I'll provide feedback on my findings.
Thanks in advance.

The beta is just the files. Final version will likely be an iso. For the files, you use your software just like you would burn any DVD. How to do that is a subject for another thread. But basically you put the ziped files in the VIDEO_TS folder off the root of the DVD.
post #76 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Quote:


I prefer the checkboard patterns for tint/hue rather than the little flashing squares. The more area of each color - like AVIA PRO. The tint/hue patterns on AccuPel are good too.

Sorry, I have access to neither so I dont' kow what they look like. Maybe Greg would let me use a varation of his. I can make the checkers huge if that helps.

Quote:


SethS from A/VPRO has a real simple DVD he authored that has a great pattern design that made absolute sense for doing tint/hue - but you have to get a training to get it - and it is a copyrighted DVD anyways.

Cool, but I can't use anything copyrighted obviously. I would like to know what they look like.

Quote:


Between A/VPRO, Accupel and AVIA PRO I have way to much $$$$ invested in patterns! I also have DisplayMate, ColorFacts, CaliBug, and Nokia Monitor for computer usage. Then to show the calibration customer - more down to earth stuff they should buy - I have AVIA (2 copies) and Sound & Vision. Never did buy VE, DVE or DVE/PRO....yet. I am sure I forget some....Did I mention that AVIA PRO includes the SMPTE, CEA and GENESIS patterns?

Yep, thre's aton of cool stuff out there. I got permission to add a very nice multi-test pattern yesterday. I want to encode it before announcing it to be sure I have no issues with it. It will meet one of 2 missing items on my disc, maybe both.

I certaintly dont' mean for it to replace a pro's disc set. No way to do that. The commercial tools will always have more tests, bells and whistles. But for me, I find I only need a handful of stuff. On several threads there's always noobs trying to figure out if they can do BTB or WTW and folks pointing this way and that to get it. FOr home users, I like some of Avia, some of DVE. Mostly DVE which I have no trouble navigating, but others find it difficult. So tis will lump all of what I use, plus a few into one easy to use spot. I hope.

Cheers,
Scott
post #77 of 2307
Scott - To be fully standards compliant, you want "peak" black at 1 and peak white at 254. Unfortunately, since I am back on the road, I don't have access to any of my toys from home. However, I'll take a gander for any general comments later in the week.

Thanks for all of your work!

Best Regards,
Bill
post #78 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Thanks Bill.

I will change all locations where it is appropriate to have peak black/white to 1 and 254 instead of 0 and 255.

Scott
post #79 of 2307
Scott - One other thing (I just ran through the README, not the actual disc itself): Can you also add 100% RGBCMY patterns into the disc as well? Also, is there any way to get green and blue ramps, too?

Later,
Bill
post #80 of 2307
Quote:


So I get a chuckle out of you guys trying to scrounge up some DIY patterns!

Kevin, this disc wasn't created because Scott had nothing better to do...It was created out of NECESSITY!!

If someone had created a nice, easy to use disc for us hobbyists who wish to do our own calibrations, or even an easy to use tool for the professional, then this disc would have never been created. The problem is that there is not a single low cost disc out there that meets the needs of the home calibrator, so it just had to be done!

If anyone, amateur or prefessional alike, wants to perform a calibration, then he faces these issues:

1. Any of the low cost discs (Avia, DVE, or S&V) either does not have a complete set of patterns, has bad color levels, or is unnecessarily difficult to navigate. All three are too hard to navigate, while the others simply do not provide enough patterns to get the job done, even if you mix and match from all three.
2. The only discs available that have the needed patterns are Avia Pro and DVE Pro, which still suffer from unnecessarily difficult navigation, and they cost $400 and $300 respectively...way too much money for what we need!
3. The last option is to use a pattern generator, and the Accupel is probably the best buy here at something like $1300...Again, way too much money for the hobbyist, but probably quite reasonable for the professional.

So the only way for a hobbyist to get a disc based set of patterns is to purchase one of the Pro packages, and Scott and I both agreed that for the handful of patterns that we actually need, as well as the poor navigation we must endure, it just doesn't make sense.

Thus the need to create the perfect pattern disc among ourselves, as there is no reasonable alternative!
post #81 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa View Post

Scott - One other thing (I just ran through the README, not the actual disc itself): Can you also add 100% RGBCMY patterns into the disc as well? Also, is there any way to get green and blue ramps, too?

Later,
Bill

Yep, see note above. Plans are to:

Quote:


Before I remove the Beta version from it, I'll probably add in a few more extra patterns. Specifically:
* 5% step gray windows (vs 10)
* 100% color windows
* green and blue ramp patterns (just for completeness)
* possibly some variation on the colorbars.

Still wanting to keep bare bones, but would like to add for completeness of what I use, Y/C delay. Looking into that one, and resolution per Chirs' request to find 1:1 pixel mapping. Don't know if I can do those or not. I beleive dr1394 has a Y/C pattern he's going ot let me have a look at.

I'd also like a different colorbar pattern. Although mine's just boxes in a row, it's similar to another one. Maybe nothing to worry about, have to be careful.
post #82 of 2307
Cool! Will the licensing terms stay constant from the current beta?
post #83 of 2307
Thread Starter 
You mean free ? Still thinking about it, but probably. What I will probably do is make it donationware with a paypal address for "tips" if you like it. That won't do much so maybe dangle the carrot of adding registered owners (those who donated or bought) to a list of those who whill be notified of updates. Distribute it in iso form so new folks, less technical ones, and those without a DVD burner will want to buy a nice disc with a label and case, etc. And it wil be cheap. Thinking $5.00 + S&H. I hate to make it nagware, but maybe let the totally free version with a required main screen that pauses, or something like that. We all know copyprotection is a waste of time on DVD's, so maybe I'll just make it free period.

Trying to think of other carrots. I'm certaintly open to making "custom" versions with maybe a store's logo, or an owner's theater name on the opening screen, etc. It would be nice to get a little something out of it, not too much. Maybe get Tweeter/Circuit City to buy copies to give away with every display they sell (now I'm day dreaming ).
post #84 of 2307
Scott, I think the donationware idea is probably best. As you mentioned, there really is no sense in trying to protect it, and I really think that it would take a real shmoe not to send you $5 for this incredibly useful disc. If nothing else, it will serve as an experiment in human behavior.

I dished out $20 for S&V, between $30 and $40 each for DVE and Avia, and then another $300 for DVE Pro, and this is the only disc I will use 99% of the time. The people who don't need this disc won't bother with it, and the ones who do need it will be eternally grateful.
post #85 of 2307
I'd agree, but I think you're underpricing the packaged disc. I think raw materials alone would set you back $1 - $2/disc, not counting your time. However, we can take that discussion offline...

Later,
Bill
post #86 of 2307
Scott -- $10+S&H for a disk would not be too much, considering the time you've put into it and the hassle of S&H. For those of us that can do our own ISO burning, the donationware sounds good. Let me know how to send you the $5 (it's worth that to me certainly - for an easy to use for basic calibration source). Email update notification (or something similar through AVS?) would be great.
post #87 of 2307
Will this calibration disc work with my Westinghouse 37" that is connected via VIA to my computer???
post #88 of 2307
Yes. The caveat is whether the PC will output correct color.
post #89 of 2307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Scott -- $10+S&H for a disk would not be too much, considering the time you've put into it and the hassle of S&H. For those of us that can do our own ISO burning, the donationware sounds good. Let me know how to send you the $5 (it's worth that to me certainly - for an easy to use for basic calibration source). Email update notification (or something similar through AVS?) would be great.

Claus, et.al:

Thanks. [edit - link removed for compliance]

For now, progress and update announcements will be via this thread. I'll play it by ear after that. AVS is certaintly my first choice for any general announcements.

BEst,
Scott
post #90 of 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by riDuh7 View Post

Will this calibration disc work with my Westinghouse 37" that is connected via VIA to my computer???

Hello there my friend.
It looks like we're both getting around.

The post following yours is correct. I had the same issues playing this disk from My HTPC as I did with the Avia disk. That is, I saw no bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. I haven't made any adjustments to the PC's setting yet to see if I can get it to even put out black & white let alone btb & wtw. I will in the next day or so. Please let me know what you get on your West 37 & PC.

I did just now used this on my IBM (its own flat panel) and was able to adjust it to see all four moving bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. This means it can display btb & wtw.

Nice looking disk!
I like the arrangement and simplicity. The Avia disk is agrevating to use.

John
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Display Calibration
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › New calibration disc