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Attn Newbies: You Cannot Record in Hi-Def Resolution on Current DVD Recorders - Page 8

post #211 of 585
Squonk seems to have disappeared off the face of the Earth long ago.
post #212 of 585
Not from the earth, he just got himself banned from the forum. His acid tongue finally got the better of him.
post #213 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwefring View Post

Squonk:

Could you update this Sticky from Nov. 2005?

Lwefring

Ask your questions. There are many experienced folks that monitor this thread.
post #214 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget_HT View Post

Ask your questions. There are many experienced folks that monitor this thread.

Noob alert...

New to HDTV, it's great

OK, I've accepted I don't have much to choose from for an OTA/ATSC DVR, unless I want to try buying something obsolete or get a subscription to something.

So I've decide to get a DVD recorder, accepting that I cannot record HD format.

So is there one out there that will at least record in Dolby 5.1 format from OTA and get something comparable to existing (non-HD) DVD standards?

I thought the HD recording market would be more advanced at this stage in the game.

Thanks

Brian
post #215 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02fx4dude View Post

Noob alert...

So is there one out there that will at least record in Dolby 5.1 format from OTA and get something comparable to existing (non-HD) DVD standards?

I thought the HD recording market would be more advanced at this stage in the game.

Thanks

Brian

The way to get 5.1 audio is with a D-VHS recorder hooked up via Firewire to a set-top box that has a Firewire link. You'll find info about those in the HDTV recorders forum. You'll have a D-VHS tape, not a DVD. If the recorded channel is not 5c copy protected (i.e. it is a netowrk HD channel) you probably can export from box's Firewire link to a PC and use PC software to author it to DVD without changing the audio.

The audio recorded by a DVD recorder comes from analog inputs and those are only 2-channel stereo.

There are devices that let you record the OTA HDTV stream directly to a PC. Oftentimes that also can be re-encoded to the video DVD spec without changing the audio.
post #216 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy View Post

The way to get 5.1 audio is with a D-VHS recorder hooked up via Firewire to a set-top box that has a Firewire link. You'll find info about those in the HDTV recorders forum. You'll have a D-VHS tape, not a DVD. If the recorded channel is not 5c copy protected (i.e. it is a netowrk HD channel) you probably can export from box's Firewire link to a PC and use PC software to author it to DVD without changing the audio.

The audio recorded by a DVD recorder comes from analog inputs and those are only 2-channel stereo.

There are devices that let you record the OTA HDTV stream directly to a PC. Oftentimes that also can be re-encoded to the video DVD spec without changing the audio.

The 2-channel stereo analog audio inputs on a DVD recorder can also pass through matrix-encoded Dolby surround, which is provided at the analog stereo outputs of many (all?) HD source devices. While it is definitely NOT Dolby Digital 5.1, some folks believe it is passable for many situations.

I was hoping the new integrated HDTV tuner/DVD recorder devices might retain the DD 5.1 audio in their recordings. I have not heard anyone verify this, so I doubt it is there in the current generation devices.

Perhaps next year's DVD recorder models will add some important features, like proper widescreen recordings (anamorphic with widescreen flags) and DD 5.1 audio from HDTV sources.
post #217 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget_HT View Post

The 2-channel stereo analog audio inputs on a DVD recorder can also pass through matrix-encoded Dolby surround, which is provided at the analog stereo outputs of many (all?) HD source devices. While it is definitely NOT Dolby Digital 5.1, some folks believe it is passable for many situations.

I was hoping the new integrated HDTV tuner/DVD recorder devices might retain the DD 5.1 audio in their recordings. I have not heard anyone verify this, so I doubt it is there in the current generation devices.

Perhaps next year's DVD recorder models will add some important features, like proper widescreen recordings (anamorphic with widescreen flags) and DD 5.1 audio from HDTV sources.

Thanks for pointing this out. Indeed, recording the two channels does get information that a receiver can matrix for a enjoyable surround sound experience.

As for anything that will allow transferring 5.1 audio to a standalone DVD recorder, I just don't see the industry ever giving us that. MPEG 2 and AC-3 are old technology and the industry's engineers have moved on to work on what's next such as H.264, Blu-Ray, HD DVD and AAC 5.1 surround.
post #218 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy View Post

Thanks for pointing this out. Indeed, recording the two channels does get information that a receiver can matrix for a enjoyable surround sound experience.

As for anything that will allow transferring 5.1 audio to a standalone DVD recorder, I just don't see the industry ever giving us that. MPEG 2 and AC-3 are old technology and the industry's engineers have moved on to work on what's next such as H.264, Blu-Ray, HD DVD and AAC 5.1 surround.

You and others might be interested in this post, which tells us what's in store for next year's LSI Domino 5 chip.
post #219 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabjxo View Post

You and others might be interested in this post, which tells us what's in store for next year's LSI Domino 5 chip.

Interesting. What I sense is that chip provides the option to record transport streams or to record SD MPEG 2 with 2-channel AC-3. I believe it still won't create something that meets the video DVD specs with 5.1 surround unless the transport stream already meets those specs (which it typically does not). There also is the question of how much HD transport stream content can fit a single- or dual-layer DVD and what will be able to play back that disc. Hopefully I'm wrong about my skepticism and this actually will bridge the muxing of transport-stream 5.1 audio with encoding of SD MPEG 2 video.

Meanwhile the only clear transport streams available on my Comcast service are a some (but not all) of the HD network channels. I can transfer those streams now to my computer. Everything else is 5c copy protected so only their box can record and replay those channels. The industry does not want us to record archive copies of video or audio at its highest-available quality even if we have hardware that can make it possible.

My attitude is to accept that what we have with recent DVD recorders is pretty darn good and not to sweat that we don't have it all.
post #220 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy View Post

My attitude is to accept that what we have with recent DVD recorders is pretty darn good and not to sweat that we don't have it all.

We can only use what is made. It's hard to use anything else :-)
post #221 of 585
DVHS is the only method of recording 1080i, 5.1 material in all its glory from the most channels. DVHS can record channels with 5C.

You gotta have a an active firewire source. I archived almost 300 DVD recordings before I went pure HD. Now I have hundreds of hours of 1080i, 5.1 material archived. My media closets are a joy to behold
post #222 of 585
OK, so I know these recorders won't record in HD. But will any of these DVD recorders with an HD tuner output an HD signal/stream live from the tuner, so that one can at least use it as an HD tuner?
post #223 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

OK, so I know these recorders won't record in HD. But will any of these DVD recorders with an HD tuner output an HD signal/stream live from the tuner, so that one can at least use it as an HD tuner?

Unfortunately, no.
post #224 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

OK, so I know these recorders won't record in HD. But will any of these DVD recorders with an HD tuner output an HD signal/stream live from the tuner, so that one can at least use it as an HD tuner?

I don't know if this is the same thing that you are asking or not, but I have the Philips DVD-R3575H/37 DVD Recorder (with Digital Tuner and a HDD).

I recently made a list of all the Digital Channels it will tune in and noticed something that surprised me. My cable company is Verizon Fios and you can get either a Standard Def Box, or a High Def Box for each TV. We have a High Def Box in our TV Room (one that also records similar to a Tivo), and we have Standard Def Boxes in the bedrooms. In our TV room we can view all the HD channels, but in the bedrooms if we tune in the same channel we only get Audio and no Video (due to the SD boxes).

When I was making the list of channels the Philips 3575 tunes in, I discovered that it actually tuned in all the OTA HD Channels with Audio and Video.

The HD Channels it tunes in are:
CBS HD
NBC HD
ABC HD
FOX HD
WPIX, CW11 HD
WWOR, MY-9 HD
and WNET, PBS HD

Now, I am sure that if I recorded from those channels it will give me a Standard Definition recording from the HD Channel, but the fact that it tunes them in...when even my SD Cable Box doesn't (and the Philips 3575 is certainly not HD)...is a mystery to me.
post #225 of 585
These devices can receive all formats of digital TV signals that are currently broadcast over the air or delivered via unencrypted cable. This includes both SD and HD resolutions. However, they can output only SD resolution, whether for recording or for direct viewing on a TV screen. They always down-convert HD signals to SD.

Next year we will probably see second-generation devices that can pass HD signals to a TV for viewing (without down-conversion), but they will still be able to record only in SD, because the DVD standard specifies SD resolution. In order to record in HD, we will need a Blu-ray or HD-DVD recorder, and there are no such standalone units yet, at least in the USA.
post #226 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

These devices can receive all formats of digital TV signals that are currently broadcast over the air or delivered via unencrypted cable. This includes both SD and HD resolutions. However, they can output only SD resolution, whether for recording or for direct viewing on a TV screen. They always down-convert HD signals to SD.

jtbell:

Would it be more beneficial for me to record a program on the HD channel (versus the SD channel) for better quality? What I mean is, lets say there is a program I want to record on FOX, will recording it on FOX HD (which will down-convert to SD) still yield better video quality than if I recorded it from the SD FOX channel?

Is HD down-converted to SD better than regular SD?

Just curious.
post #227 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by suplex View Post

jtbell:

Would it be more beneficial for me to record a program on the HD channel (versus the SD channel) for better quality? What I mean is, lets say there is a program I want to record on FOX, will recording it on FOX HD (which will down-convert to SD) still yield better video quality than if I recorded it from the SD FOX channel?

Is HD down-converted to SD better than regular SD?

Just curious.

I can't speak for jtbell, but I can relate my personal experience with your question.

I record a lot of HDTV widescreen programs on my DVD recorder. I "down-res" the HD program playback within my HD TiVo box to 480i for input to my Pioneer 520H DVD recorder. I keep the recorded program length to 2 hours or less and I optimize the use of disk space by setting the manual "MN" recording length settings in the DVD recorder to the final length of the recording after deleting commercials. Thus, I squeeze as much quality as I can into the recording that will ultimately result after dubbing in high speed from the hard drive to the DVD media.

I use a Video Filter in series with the S-video connection from my HD TiVo to my DVD recorder to insert the widescreen flag as needed to ensure proper DVD letterboxing when playing back on a 4x3 TV (this is not needed if all DVD playback will be on a 16x9 TV).

The end result for me has video quality that rivals an "enhanced for widescreen" commercial DVD.

Recording a DVD from SD channels is not bad if the channel was received directly as analog, either over-the-air via antenna or a high-quality analog cable channel. But recording a DVD from an SD digital cable channel or SD digital satellite channel is not near as good, since the cable/satellite provider has already encoded and compressed the video to medium-to-low quality to fit it into the limited bandwidth they choose to use. After converting that to analog for s-video input to the DVD recorder and then re-encoding to MPEG-2 within the DVD recorder, the resulting video quality is mediocre in my opinion.

To recap, IMHO, the is a HUGE quality difference between recording in SD on a DVD recorder from an HDTV channel over an SD digital channel. An analog SD channel falls in between quality-wise, dependin a lot on the analog signal quality received.
post #228 of 585
I get all my TV over the air with an antenna, and can get both analog (always SD) and digital (usually HD, but some SD) versions of all my channels. I always watch or record the digital version because it doesn't have any interference (speckles or distortion) or video noise ("snow").

For a few channels, I have both HD and SD digital versions. For me, the HD version is always somewhat better because all my SD versions are subchannels which doesn't get enough bandwidth for a really good picture. Those SD subchannels always show some "grain" and motion artifacts.

On cable, I suppose there might not be much difference between a good analog signal and its HD counterpart, but this is likely to vary from one company to another and one service area to another. You'll just have to try both and see which gives better results for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget_HT View Post

But recording a DVD from an SD digital cable channel or SD digital satellite channel is not near as good, since the cable/satellite provider has already encoded and compressed the video to medium-to-low quality to fit it into the limited bandwidth they choose to use.

[Edit... you were writing at the same time I was!] In fact, I've seen comments that some broadcast stations send their digital SD subchannel versions mainly to feed the local cable company's digital system! In that case digital cable viewers would see the same artifacts that I do.

Fortunately, few stations around here do this because it takes bandwidth away from the main HD channel and reduces its picture quality.
post #229 of 585
Sometimes if I switch back and forth between a channel that comes in as SD or HD, the HD channel makes the image look a little larger. I suspect that this is normal.

Well when I start recording from any channel that also has a HD station, I will try the HD and see how it works out.
post #230 of 585
The other good thing about recording HD down rezzed, is that you will usually get the original aspect ratio, or at least closer to it, when you are recording wide-screen movies. Personally, I will not burn a pan-and-scan version of a film to disc. I'll keep looking for it in the wider aspect ratio, and the HD channels are where I usually find it. I really wish that the guide info listed "WS" when the film will be shown wide screen, especially on the SD channels, where pan-and-scan is the norm. Better yet, why don't they have an all WS movie channel?
post #231 of 585
What DVD Recorders/Burners will actually take a 16x9 image and then allow you to burn a letterboxed DVD? (or add the 16x9 flag so a DVD player hooked to a 4:3 TV will automatically letterbox it) ??

SV
post #232 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget_HT View Post

I use a Video Filter in series with the S-video connection from my HD TiVo to my DVD recorder to insert the widescreen flag as needed to ensure proper DVD letterboxing when playing back on a 4x3 TV (this is not needed if all DVD playback will be on a 16x9 TV).

The end result for me has video quality that rivals an "enhanced for widescreen" commercial DVD.

Recording a DVD from SD channels is not bad if the channel was received directly as analog, either over-the-air via antenna or a high-quality analog cable channel. But recording a DVD from an SD digital cable channel or SD digital satellite channel is not near as good, since the cable/satellite provider has already encoded and compressed the video to medium-to-low quality to fit it into the limited bandwidth they choose to use. After converting that to analog for s-video input to the DVD recorder and then re-encoding to MPEG-2 within the DVD recorder, the resulting video quality is mediocre in my opinion.

To recap, IMHO, the is a HUGE quality difference between recording in SD on a DVD recorder from an HDTV channel over an SD digital channel. An analog SD channel falls in between quality-wise, dependin a lot on the analog signal quality received.

Great post Budget HT, my experience in regards to quality is the same as yours. One question though, what "video filter" do you use to insert the widescreen flag marker and where did you buy it? Thanks.
post #233 of 585
A couple of old Sony's could be forced into 16x9.
RDR-GX7 & GX300. I have them. I'm not sure about new ones. You must use -R discs tho. [not +R]

You can always burn it then modify the flags via IFO edit .
I learned all of this here, So search old posts for how to's....
Rob
post #234 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Great post Budget HT, my experience in regards to quality is the same as yours. One question though, what "video filter" do you use to insert the widescreen flag marker and where did you buy it? Thanks.

I use a unit called 'Video Filter' from here:
http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/
I only use the unit for setting the widescreen flag while recording HDTV widescreen programs down-res'd to 480i in my HD TiVo. The HD TiVo S-video out connects to the Video Filter S-video in, and the Video Filter S-video out connects to my Pioneer DVD recorder (520H) S-video in.

This arrangement saves me the time and trouble of copying to/from my computer to edit the widescreen signal/flag.
post #235 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget_HT View Post

I use a unit called 'Video Filter' from here:
http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/
I only use the unit for setting the widescreen flag while recording HDTV widescreen programs down-res'd to 480i in my HD TiVo. The HD TiVo S-video out connects to the Video Filter S-video in, and the Video Filter S-video out connects to my Pioneer DVD recorder (520H) S-video in.

This arrangement saves me the time and trouble of copying to/from my computer to edit the widescreen signal/flag.

Thanks! I take it you set the flag with one of those little dip switches I see in the picture, yes? Or is there a switch on the front side they don't show?
post #236 of 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Thanks! I take it you set the flag with one of those little dip switches I see in the picture, yes? Or is there a switch on the front side they don't show?

Yes, the DIP switches are used to force the widescreen flag on.

There are no controls on the front side.

What brand and model of DVD recorder would you be using?
post #237 of 585
Philips DVDR985 (NTSC), it has 480i component in as well as "S-vid" in. My cable box DVR has trouble sending out a 480i in squished 16x9 but if I route its firewire out first to my JVC D-VHS deck (5U) it is capable of it, however up until now the 16x9 tv for playback of the DVD had to be set to 16x9 manually, the "auto detect flag mode" showed the squished 4x3 as its default image until I invoke the manual setting. I no longer have any 4x3 TV's but having my recordings work properly on those makes sense too. I think your box will fix this , thanks again.
post #238 of 585
The Video Filter is supposed to work for component video connections also. I have not tested this because I don't have a DVD recorder that accepts component video input. I believe the green component cable is connected to the composite input/output of the Video Filter.

Good luck!! Let us know how things work out for you.
post #239 of 585
[quote=jtbell]I get all my TV over the air with an antenna, and can get both analog (always SD) and digital (usually HD, but some SD) versions of all my channels. I always watch or record the digital version because it doesn't have any interference (speckles or distortion) or video noise ("snow").

Jtbell,

How do you record HDTV from OTA? What is your setup? I get all my TV over the air with an antenna. Thanks.
post #240 of 585
Hi all,

This is an amazing thread, and I have learned alot, and also been confused by alot as well. Hopefully, someone out there will be able to educate me a little more in regards to a DVD recorder. I hace a HR10-250 Tivo fom D*, and I am looking to transfer alot of the content on it I have to DVD, some of it being movies in HD (that I know I can only transfer as 480i, which is fine) that are widescreen, but I would like a recorder that can burn them anamorphically, as we all know how much better an amamorphic DVD looks that non-anamorphic.

I am hoping to not have to get the PC involved wich changing tags and such also.

So, does anybody have a unit, or even better a list of DVD recorders that can do this, when coupled up with the HR10-250? I really need to purge my DVR, but alot of it would be awesome iof I could transfer it anamorphically.

Thank you very much.
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