Attn Newbies: You Cannot Record in Hi-Def Resolution on Current DVD Recorders - Page 2

Squonk,

Your right. The HIGHEST resolution(currently) one can record at is 480i, PERIOD.

Even when DVD recorders eventually come with a digital tuner, 480i will "most likely" still be the max resolution one can record in. Even with the eventual arrival of Blu-ray or DVD-HD discs, 480i will be the max resolution allowed copied to a disc. A HDD will allow for HD[1080i/720p] recording, but it will all be downrezzed to 480i onto a regualr DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW/RAM, Blu-Ray, or DVD-HD disc.

I saw an upconverting DVD recorder at Best Buy yesterday (RCA) and I kinda got excited for a second until I looked on the back and only found Composite/S Video inputs. My guess is that it probably cant upconvert the recorded 480i material..

Also, I had a Philips hard drive based DVD recorder and it had component inputs..however buried in the manual was the fact that it couldn't record progressive scan content. I still figured that setting my HD-Tivo to 480i and hooking it up to it via the component cables would work, but that didn't work either, so I ended up giving it to my parents.

Hi, I'm also a newbee to DVD recording - just opened and set up my Toshiba RD-4 this morning (a Hanukah and Christmas gift from my wife). I also have a Sony KD34XBR960 and a HD-DVR from Cablevision to store movies before copying to DVD.

I have a few questions

1) I set the video mode to 16x9 when recording HD. Is this setting the same as "amamphoric" as referred to by those in this thread?

2) I recorded a football game that was in HD. On playback I had to set my Sony HDTV to "Zoom" - using full only stretched the picture with letterbox bars on the top and bottom (my DVD recorder output is set for 16x9). Is my "zoom" the same as "full" on other sets?

3) I have a second 4x3 set with a 3-2 pulldown. Does this eliminate the problem of recordings in 16x9 appearing squeezed on 4x3 sets?

I recorded "Quo Vadis" a color 4x3 film from Turner Classics this afternoon in 4x3 mode and three-hour speed since it's 165 minutes. Came out beautiful and played on both sets perfectly.

I know these questions might have already been posted and am sure I'm not the first newbee not to completely understand the answers provided in full detail.

Thanks for taking the time "again" to help me out.

Best,
Joe

The recorder records in 480i period. Setting anything to 16:9 only has to do with formatting on playback.


Your recording of a HD football game, was downconverted to a letterboxed 480i format, and by selecting "zoom" on the TV you are enlarging the image back to the size of the TV. It is still a 480i "letterboxed" recording.


NO, it has nothing to do with that at all. It refers to converting the 480i signal give a smoother, sharper image from movie sources.

Thanks Phototone.

I got concerned when reading 16x9 material could appear squeezed when viewing back on a 4x3 set. Did I misunderstand this simply meant when recording anything letterbox the setting mode should be 16x9 so it will not appear squeezed when playing back on a 4x3?

Thanks as always,
Joe

Joe, I don't know what brand your Cablevision HD PVR is but most of these only output 480i letterbox video via the S-video port from HD channels. So it is unlikely you are recording 16:9 video.

You are correct that anamorphic and 16:9 480i are the same. What happens with 16:9 anamorphic video is that the black bars that would be present on a letterbox 4:3 video are not recorded into the 4:3 video frame. Instead, the space for the black bars is used for picture information by squeezing in the width which in turn pushes up the height. On playback the DVD player unsqueezes the picture for display on a 16:9 TV. On a 4:3 TV a properly set up DVD player will unsqueeze the picture while adding bars to the top and bottom to fill the 4:3 frame so it displays at the proper aspect ratio on the TV.

Hi Healy,

I have the Scientific Atlantica 8300 HD DVR. I can't use the s-video output for dubbing since the "copy to VCR" function works only through composite video. I'm dubbing a letterboxed movie right now with the picture fixed for 16x9. Would it better making all recordings at 4x3 or does this not affect the quality of playback?

Joe, you need to get some advice from someone who has your Toshiba recorder and hopefully the Scientific Atlanta box. My sense, though, is you can only record 4:3 letterbox from the cable box so setting the Toshibat to 16:9 isn't of any effect. I suggest doing some experimentation with different settings and see for yourself what you end up with and what looks best.

HG,

Thanks so much for getting back to me. I tend to agree that the aspect ratio setting is of little consequence regarding the aspect ratio of the TV screen but that it has something to do with bit rate during recording. I'm going to contact Toshiba later this week and will let you know what they say.

Like most, Toshiba's owner's manual was vague in many areas. The company didn't provide an explanation of what the aspect ratio setting does - they just said to do it. Same thing with the manual for my brother's Panasonic hard drive recorder.

HealeyGuy is correct, with the Scientific Atlanta boxes any HiDef programming sent through the s-video or composite outputs will be automatically letterboxed.

Well, I spoke with a Toshiba representative and while no longer worried am still a little confused. The 16x9 aspect ratio should be used when recording a program in HD. Even though it does not record in high definition it sends a signal back to the TV for screen size and mentioned the picture might appear stretched if recorded in 4x3. I'm dubing now but later will experiment recording a HD program in both aspect ratios - I'll let you know if this had any effect on the automatic screen mode for my set.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

- Joe

Hope this will be the last posting regarding the aspect ratio for recording.

A letterbox or 16x9 film recorded in the 16x9 mode correctly fills a 16x9 screen proportionaltly when viewed in the "zoom" mode. 4x3 recorded in the same manner cuts off the top and bottom when in zoom but can be used in the "normal" mode.

Anything can be recorded in 16x9 and be viewed properly on the screen, however, when recording a 16x9 at 4x3 I thought the picture was slightly stretched during playback.

Thanks again for everyone's help on this.

This thread looks dead but does anybody have a list of recorders that have a seting for 16x9 input? Besides the gx300 and gx7 ?

Starting with an HDTV source, Should it make a quality difference if the 480 lines of resolution are captured in the 16x9 ratio instead of 4x3 and then stretching it?
Rob

There was some talk in the beginning of component digital recorders and 16x9 that we should use a higher sampling rate like 18 Mhz to take into account for the extra width of the widescreen. Panasonic had this mode on D5 recorders but few took advantage of it. When I saw the demo, I thought all I could see was a little more film grain. The picture was not improved much.

All SD DVDs use the same sampling rate. To get an excellent picture, wait for the high definition units this year.

Sorry, I don't have that list. But if you record a 16x9 picture, it should play back that way, unless you want to set a special flag for the players.

The Sony HX715 and HX900 do I believe.

I don't understand your second question but PQ by recording an anamorphic 16:9 video and watching it in "Full" mode on an HD 16:9 widescreen TV is better than if it is recorded in letterbox and using "zoom" mode to watch it.

I'll try the 2nd part again. Although 2 of you have helped already..
Right now, I record hdtv from my hughes dish dvr / via svid / with my pio 510.
Rip it to my PC and use IFO edit to change the 4:3 flags to 16:9.

I would assume that capturing the 16:9 frame at 480i would give a better end result than capturing a 4:3 frame and stretching it later. Comments?
That's why I'm interested in a recorder that captures 16:9.

I've tried using the USB ports on the back of the DVR with no luck and
I've tried using my Sony TRV350 D8 camera for firewire pass thru to the PIO but haven't been successful either.

Which Sony was considered higher end? The gx7 or gx300?
Thanks for the help.
Rob

The Pioneer 510 does record 16:9 video as 16:9. I've done it from my DV camcorder via both S-video and DV link. It isn't the Pioneer that is letterboxing the video but the device (your Hughes DVR) that does this when downsampling the HD video to 480i. For example, my Motorola 6412 always letterboxes its 480i output of the HD 16:9 channels. If I had a D-VHS deck I could capture the HD video from the Motorola via Firewire and use its option for 16:9 480i output to send widescreen video to the Pioneer 510 and produce a 16:9-formatted DVD.

If the Pioneer 510 failed to recognize a 16:9 source what you'd see is a vertically stretched 4:3 video. If you're seeing letterboxed video then that is what your Hughes PVR is sending to the Pioneer.

It's cheaper to buy a dvd recorder To solve the problem than it is to shell out for a new HDTV dvr.
Are you also trying to tell me that the Sony won't fix the issue? Even if I flag the sony to capture 16x9 ~ The signal from the dvr will only allow it to record 4:3?

I have been playing the HD shows on 'full' via 480i output.
It stretches it vertically and I just change the flag via IFO edit before burning.
Rob

I attached a document that should help you. The important thing to figure out is whether your HD STB is putting out an anamorphic image. If you can change its output to 480i and you need "Full" mode to view it then it is probably anamorphic. If you need to use "Zoom" mode to view ithen it is not anamorphic. The attached document covers using the Sony GX7, Sony GX300, Panasonic ES10 and Pioneer 510.

Some people would say that the GX7 is higher end than the GX300 but I have both and the results are similar. The GX7 has a Firewire input.

 

Recording onto DVD experiment v4.doc 138.5k . file

Since you're seeing the vertically stretched 4:3 recording on the Pioneer then it is failing to automatically recognize the 16:9 source. My previous post turns out to be pretty irrelevant in your case. There are situations where the Pioneer does automatically recognize 16:9, though. You apparently need a recorder that lets you manually set for 16:9 recording.

nikknightt,

It sounds like you have a DirecTV HD DVR with TiVo (originally made by Hughes), along with a Pioneer 510H DVD recorder.

I have a similar setup, except that I have the Pioneer 520H instead of the 510H. But they both behave the same with respect to widescreen recording.

Here is how it works for me, which I believe is the same as your description.

I originally record an HD 16x9 program on the HD TiVo. Then, to make a DVD copy of the program (in 480i of course), I set the HD TiVo for 480i resolution and Full aspect ratio (instead of panel). Viewing this on a 16x9 TV gives a full-screen, widescreen picture at 480i. Viewing the same source via s-video on a 4x3 TV results in a horizontally squished (or vertically stretched) picture filling the 4x3 screen. This mode gives you the best available picture detail from the HD TiVo on the s-video output. I believe you described the same setup on your HD TiVo.

Unfortunately, the HD TiVo does not provide the widescreen flag along with this anamorphic output. Recording this on my Pioneer DVD recorder results in no widescreen flag on the recording, even though the Pioneer would capture and record it if it were available. Playing this back on a widescreen TV is no problem because the original horizontally squished 4x3 picture is now horizontally stretched to fill the 16x9 screen. All is well so far. As you likely already know, this is exactly how a commercial DVD provides an "enhanced for widescreen" picture.

A problem occurs when watching the same recorded DVD on a 4x3 TV. Now you see the horizontally squished 4x3 picture. If there had been a widescreen flag present on the DVD, the DVD player would "letterbox" the video by adding black bars above and below the picture to give you the proper 16x9 video. Or, the DVD player might crop the sides of the picture (a.k.a., pan and scan) and display a full-screen 4x3 picture, minus the left and right edges that were cropped in order to fill the screen. The 4x3 TV display options you set in your DVD player determine which of these display modes applies.

So, to set the widescreen flag that will enable DVD players to display the video properly on a 4x3 TV, we import a copy of the original DVD produced on the Pioneer recorder into our PC or Mac, and use the appropriate programs to force the widescreen flag to be set properly. Then we burn the resulting files onto a new DVD "master" with the properly set widescreen flag.

You are getting the maximum available picture detail on your recorded DVDs using this process. The only way to improve the picture quality would be to obtain a newer DVD recorder that might have better analog to digital conversion and/or better MPEG-2 encoding.

A simpler process with fewer steps would be possible if you had either:

1) A source of 16x9 programs that actually sent the widescreen flag at the time of playback (no such device exists for DirecTV HD DVR service);

or;

2) A DVD recorder that lets you manually force the widescreen flag while recording from the HD source playing back at 480i. Some Sony recorders and a few others provide this capability.

I looked into the cost of buying a Sony with HDD and decided it cost too much for me. So I continue with my current process. I am quite pleased with the results, which video-wise rival commercial DVDs, IMHO, when viewed on my HDTV.

I wish we had a way to preserve the DD 5.1 audio through this process.

2) A DVD recorder that lets you manually force the widescreen flag while recording from the HD source playing back at 480i. Some Sony recorders and a few others provide this capability.


Thanks for everyone's detailed help.
Just to clarify, I have the hughes hr10-250 like you thought and the pio 520h. [not 510]

The one last big question i have, Is regarding the statement i quoted above this message.

Since i currently record hdtv from the dvr / via svideo / to my pio 520 using the "full" / 480i output. [which gives it that tall skinny look]
Rip it to my PC and use IFO edit to change the 4:3 flags to 16:9.
It's now the way most of you have suggested. Looks good BUT.

Wouldn't it look better if I started with a sony gx300 and flagged it as a 16x9 capture first? Or is it pretty much the same thing? You'd end up with a better looking 16x9 movie when finished wouldn't you? Better than a stretched 4x3?

I know how to make it work now, I'm just looking for the smart thing to do until HD recorders are reasonably priced. I know where i can get a warrantied refurb gx300 for $169.00.

And in case somebody has other ideas, I also have the devices listed below.
jvc hd-ila tv with firewire in/out [gonna try that next]
liteon 5001 dvd recorder
sony trv350 dig8
philips 985 dvd+rw

cheers.
Rob

Thanx akastp.
I think i figured it out about the same time you posted.
It's comes out of the dvr as 4x3 so if the sony does it or i do it on the pc ~ It's still just stretching it.

You guys saved me 169$$
Now since i [think] have this figured out. It's pretty close to the time dtv is supposed to change all these dvr's to new mpeg4's isn't it? That might change the flag thing too.
That's probably for another thread..
Rob

AksStp is correct. Note however that you need to set the TV Aspect Ratio (under Setup/Video/TV Aspect Ratio in the menu) to Widescreen 16:9 on the DirecTV HR10-250 HD Tivo STB. This is more important than setting the TV Aspect Correction (under Setup/Video/TV Aspect Correction in the menu) to 4:3 or Panel - I use Panel for all my recordings but I don't see a difference in recordings made with either Aspect Correction setting from HD content. However on the HR10-250 SD content will be distorted unless you use "Panel".

I use my Sony GX7 and my two GX300 DVD reorders so that I don't have to upload the DVD to my PC to set the 16:9 flag so that the DVD will play undistorted on a 4:3 SD TV. This works using DVD-Rs for DVDs two hours or less. I believe that the HX715 extends this capability to 2.5 hours but you would need to confirm that in the HX715 manual. I use my Panasonic ES10 for recordings longer than two hours because it retains the resoultion out to 4 hours which the Sony recorders do not. I believe that the newer Pioneers also retain their resolution beyond 2 hours but it varies from model to model. In any case you would need to upload the DVDs to a PC (and burn a new DVD) if you want to reset the 16:9 flags using a software program such as IfoEdit when using the Panasonic and Pioneer DVD recorders.

I would buy the Sony for $169.95 if I were you and the bulk of your recordings were two hours or less. You will save time and effort.

Here is a reference to anamorphic DVDs that will help you understand how and why the strectching occurs:
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_...anamorphic.htm

I'm still thinking about the Sony but I record everything on dvdrw then usually reauthor it on the PC anyways. Change the menu and normalize the audio. Recorders seem to keep the audio level low. Sucks for concerts and music vids.

But it sounds like i don't need it with my PIO, If i can somehow get 16x9 out of a HD source, problem solved.

My JVC tv says only jvc firewire devices can be used with the ports...I thought I had a shot there. Does JVC make any recorders?
Rob

A friend of mine with a GX300 doesn't know how to set it to capture 16x9.
Can someone post instructions on how to?
Thanks.
Rob

Since you're recording with the Pioneer's line inputs you can boost the audio signal +3 or +6 db in the Initial Setup>Audio In menu.


I believe the Firewire link on the TV is for TS streams and not for DV video. Therefore it won't work with a DVD recorder's firewire link. It would work with a JVC D-VHS recorder.

See page 48 0f the manual:
1) in stop mode press Tools on the remote
2) select Rec Settings and press Enter
3) select DVD Rec Picture Size and press Enter
4) select 16:9

Good luck finding one. Such a beast does not exist for DirecTV and as far as I can tell there is no HD STB that puts out a 16:9 flag that would be recognized by a Pioneer DVD recorder.

I thought I read somewhere that one of the Hughes HD DirecTV receivers was found to output the widescreen flag--the HTL-HD (or something like that--my memory is not that great for details). Of course that is NOT a DVR, just an HD DirecTV + OTA tuner.