Sony Pushes Blu-Ray Adoption With PS3 - Page 3  

Pardon me but what analysis? All I have seen you post is unsubstantiated opinions. Anyone can pull numbers out of thin air and call it an analysis but that doesn't make it accurate. I'd really like to see where (and how) you came up with numbers better than one of the world's largest brokerage firms. If it wasn't by using your super duper secret decoder ring please provide a link.

********....you are one of a kind (thank god).....

Oh, and as far as that chart is concerned, it was made by Naughty Dog, who is an SCEA 2nd party developer....

Cost of next gen game development will rise across the board.......to suggest this "problem" is only PS3-specific is ludicrous...

Content creation-3D modeling, programing, testing, debuging, texturing, physics, AI, SFX-will be more complex and, therefore, more expensive accross the board......this truth will apply not just to "PSX3" but to Xbux Three $ixty and Revolution as well.....

Consumers in the market for a next-gen system will demand a next-gen experience....bigger, better, longer, faster, flashier.....to create games in a timely fashion next gen will require bigger teams to do more work, faster....and game development has progressively become more expensive with each console generation since, like, forever....anyone who *isn't* an anti-sony spin Dr. realized this from the start :)


******** says there are "so few" PSX3 games in development but doesn't name an exact number.....funny that...

As of TGS 2005, there are 102 PLAYSTATION 3 games from 71 publishers in development for the japanese market alone.....

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/09...s_6133515.html


Keep in mind this list is just for PS3 games with planned Japanese releases and doesnt include many western developed PS3 games from publishers like Activision, Midway or THQ and doesnt even include some US/EU developed Sony PS3 games....Lair, Formula One, Heavenly Sword,L.A. Noir, Getaway next gen and Killzone 3 to name just 6 SCEA/SCEE games...

Have no fear, there will be no "shortage" of PS3 games :)

********, find out what the PS3 uses in terms of blue laser diodes and than you can start using blue laser diodes in your estimates for how many PS3 consoles can be made per month. Until than they are merely making biased guesses.


********, the chart was presented without a link to the full article which to say the least is a biased way to present information. Also the second chart was mistaken since they meant to say millions spent per year of development.


Also ******** I am right about the CELL CPU being better at physics than the Xbox 360 CPU and if you don't believe it than explain why it isn't true. The 7 SPEs in the CELL CPU can easily out perform the Xbox 360 CPU in terms of something like physics calculations based on their design. Shortly after the Reference Tool for the PS3 comes out we will see what the CELL CPU can really do with the PS3, which I explained here.

More bad news for ********, Midway will not have games ready for 360 launch

Arguing with ******** will be a fruitless venture, believe me...

His M.O. is usually to infiltrate various message boards and slam anything Sony related.....historically, he will continue to bash/spin Sony-related data until he is banned from that forum.....even after several clear warnings from mods (just giving some backstory here).....

He has been doing this since the Dreamcast days (remember SuperKyro, DM???)
:rolleyes:

He is a permenent outcast of Gaming-age forums and Beyond 3D forums, AFAIK...

IMO, Julie is a powderpuff pretender compared to ********...


P.S. and as far as X360 being cheap to develop for??

http://www.the-magicbox.com/gaming.htm


Game development budgets on ALL NEXT GEN consoles will not be for the faint of heart.....

You've basically just asked him to moon you.

That made me laugh. :D

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000220066600/

The PlayStation 3 is expected to cost between $300 and $400, according to a new data point buried deep in an article in the Hollywood Reporter about Sony’s overall business strategy. In addition to the PS3 price hint, there are some other interesting factoids in the article:

Sony will be releasing new portable media player devices that “will focus primarily on video and transferring user-selected content from digital video recorders and other devices using Sony Memory Sticksâ€
The Sony PlayStation business is worth approximately $20 billion out of Sony Entertainments’s entire $37 billion valuation. (The entire company rakes in $65 billion per year.)
The PS3 is a Blu-ray trojan horse. According to an anonymous â€high-level studio executive,†the PS3 will be a “subsidized Blu-ray play that will sell 20 million units. The first HD player will be on the market for $1,000. PS3 could be at $300 or $400. Sony will be selling them at a loss the first six months to a year just to get Blu-ray players out in the market. So studios realize they need to have their content on it.â€
â€PS3 will be bundled with a selection of preloaded films, TV programs and gamesâ€

Phantagram CEO stated that MS picked up 100% of tap. And it does not cost $18 million just to set up a Xbox 360 development environment..

Too bad that media player device cannot rip any video from a BR-ROM player.

Game development cost is under control on Xbox 360 and Nintendo GameCube Turbo(aks Revolution)'s side; it is only out of control on PSX3's side.

Consider, Armored Core 4 looks much more finished and complete on Xbox 360 in spite of it being a project that started on PSX3 and then ported to Xbox 360, as demonstrated by From Soft side by side. How did this happen? It is simple, Xbox 360 development tools are so much better and mature the productivity is several times higher on Xbox 360 side than PSX3 side. Which cost less to develop for? Xbox 360 by a mile.

Better environment reduces development time and cost, this was already proven even back in the PSX2/Xbox days where a typical Xbox title cost 40% of a typical PSX2 title to produce, the effect is becoming more profound in PSX3/Xbox 360 generation. For a lot of developers, skipping PSX3 entirely and migrating to Xbox 360 is not a matter of choice but survival, since they cannot cope in PSX3's high cost/low productivity development structure.

Not to throw the argument one way or the other, but it should be noted that Sony and Nichia have a cross-licensing agreement in place (covering 800+ patents) for 405nm diodes, and as such, Nichia is the only cost effective option for Sony on PS3 405nm diodes...if Sony had to turn to other sources, all the gory costs detailed by ML and others for the BD-ROM component would jump...significantly. Until Sony can sufficiently self-supply (their plan), Nichia will be a factor, for better or worse.

Alex, that is an interesting detail but have the production plans for Nichia changed in the past year since this article has been made? Something tells me that Sony would not rely on any single source for blue laser diodes unless they were very confident it could produce the needed number of diodes. And considering that Sony is hopeful they can sell 10+ million PS3s in the first year either Nichia has changed their plans greatly in the last year or Sony has other sources.

Oy vay!

Xbox game development costs 40% of PSX2, huh?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/08...s_6130901.html

********, since the onus of doubt is now on you, this might be a good time to give proof of your "Xbox development is 40% that of PSX2"


Have a nice day :)

You make me laugh.

Well, I was going by 2004 CESA report. PSX2's development cost did take a nose dive after all, must be all those hentai dating sims and gyudon cooking simulation titles that is lowering the overall cost down.

A summary of 2004 CESA report for 2002 and 2003 analysis.

2002
GameCube : 72 million yen
PSX2 : 59 million yen
Xbox : 35 million yen
PSX : 14 million yen

2003
PSX2 : 39 million yen
GameCube : 38 million yen
Xbox : 22 million yen
PSX : 5 million yen

As you can clearly see, the cost comparison of 2002 better reflects the cost structure of PSX3 vs Xbox 360 in the beginning than a 2004 comparison. PSX3 suffers from a major cost disadvantage compared to Xbox 360, simply because development takes longer on PSX3 thanks to its primitive and crude tools.

And I owe an apology for a miscomment; it should have been typed "Xbox costs 40% less than PSX2 to develop, not Xbox costs 40% of PSX2 to develop". My failing memory.

Original Nikkei link(It is dead now)
A clip&paste of original Nikkei article

I have a pleasure of laughing at you too.

You should also mention that getting this extra performance out of the Cell chip requires much, much more work and expense. Most opinions from the industry I've seen say the difference in video game performance between the two units will be virtually nonexistent. However, the Xbox 360 has a much better general purpose processor. General purpose processing is far more important for many users. Running media players, emulators and other homebrew apps will be much better on the Xbox 360.

Good, we'll all be better off if Midway never releases another game. ;)

The PSX3 will look the exact same as the XBOX 360 because most Game developers will beusing the exact same Textures/ model for both systems. give it a year and then you will notice a diffrence when the game is exclusive to PSX3 and you will see the good results.

Our initial test for the PSX3 our outstanding. but its easier to use teh same resourses for one system compared to the other.

Funny, Gamespot reports a different summary of the 2004 CESA report:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/08...s_6130901.html

Xbox - 202 million yen ($1.8 million)
PlayStation 2 - 96 million yen ($877,634)
GameCube - 90 million yen ($822,857)

According to CESA, clearly Microsoft's Xbox was by far the most costly platform for game development.

Also, can you provide credible links that backs up your claim regarding longer development time and "primitive and crude tools" comment? Otherwise, I would not categorize your lapses as "failing memory" but more or a massive delusional disorder...

I am not a gaming guy so please don't ask me questions about this :). But this just came out in CED from Activision CEO Robert Kotick based on what he "told the Morgan Stanley Software, Services, Internet & Networking Conference in Phoenix late last week." And since it is related to the topic at hand, I figured I post it.

Kotick declined to forecast which console will gain a larger market share. But he indicated that Microsoft has made it easier for publishers to make games for the new systems than Sony. Kotick said: "We are not taking advantage of all the capabilities that [360] has" yet but the tools Microsoft has provided "certainly have helped." He said: "We're hopeful that Sony will introduce some tools that are equivalently helpful," calling the PS3 architecture "even more complicated" than 360. He predicted it "will take a while to take advantage" of the PS3's features. Sony Computer Entertainment America didn't respond to a request for comment about Kotick's remarks by our Fri. deadline.

Amir

chefboy1,

That gamespot article refers to CESA 2005 report which covers games released in 2004, which is one year later than my links. Higher Xbox cost in 2004 can be attributed to limited number of big budget releases.

Like I said, CESA's 2002 analysis better reflects the cost difference between PSX3 and Xbox 360 in the early than its 2004 analysis.

Japanese developers defecting to Xbox 360 en mass, an article from Japan

The biggest complaints with PSX3 have been high cost and crappy development tools. SCEI's development tools were always crude and crappy since PSX2 days, but developers had no choice but to take it. But now Microsoft's world-class tools in developer's hands, Japanese developers are no longer willing to put up with Kutaragi Ken's demands.

Sure, but find me case law, then, since you did not disclaim a bar card, when both a Federal and State AT violation is at issue where the matter was heard before a State court for both claims? Doesn't happen for a very specific reason in so far as my b-law classes were concerned. Perhaps I used "preempt" a bit too loosely, though. My point is that Federal law takes precedence, and the commerce clause is a fairly effective weapon to ensure that State laws are "in accordance" with the point-of-view of Federal law.

I had to borrow a buddy's AT textbook to understand some advice I was given by counsel, and it indicated that the last RP case that was brought by the FTC was in the first Reagan administration. The book went on to point out that the reason RP is not enforced is that it is at odds with the rest of settled AT case law (i.e., RP, stringently enforced, would increase consumer costs). Private entities are allowed to sue under RP, though, and in fact, Wally World is having to defend at least one right now. RP is also not relevant here.

The issue may be reframed as gaming consoles that also play high definition movies. Given that Xbox360 will not have this capability, this still seems implausible that the PS3 would not be held to be in a different category (it would be like arguing that Televisions were predatorily priced against radio. Also, barring some iditotically written supply contracts, demonstrating market power is actually going to require demonstrating market power, which requires a launch and sales. Given that MSFT will also be selling the Xbox360 below cost, there is no way to show this short of MSFT exiting the market.

American Airlines slashing prices to drive Vanguard out of its markets is predatory pricing. Two giant multinationals losing money on razors to sell blades is not.

Anyway, we now return you to the bickering over development costs for games.

Later,
Bill

I must say that Microsoft has updated it Sofware tools that does aid in the XBOX 360 Development.

But another factor that they don't mention is how there pipline is. There pipeling for xbox 360 games will work more smoothly because it is very simular to the PC games. which Make sense that it would be easier.

Also No Offense to CEO's but they really don't know whats going on in the development side.

For example........... will not mention where I was working for. but the CEO was taking clients on a tour. And he brought them to our room. Instead of saying look at the team we have and what we have worked on before................. he said a stupid remark like look at the computers, they all are tablet controlled.

Most CEO don't even know is working for them or what is actually going on behind the Scenes they mostly get reports on scheduling and Budgets.

So just like every other Article take it with a grain of salt.

It sounds like this CEO was specifically briefed about the difference in available tools between 360 and ps3. CEOs would (should :D ) be very careful when speaking about two comepeting platforms on which they are dependant. So, the comments like this can't be just wished away.

I love reading all of the wild speculation on the board. As a game developer, let me set some things straight.

1) The PS2 vs. XBox development numbers you are quoting ar BOGUS! They represent averages from the entirety of the games developed. That said, the Playstation has a lot more games, and a lot cheaper games being developed for it. This would cause the average cost to trend downward. In fact, the PS2 does coast about 10% more to develop for than the Xbox.

2) The PS3 costs A LOT more to develop for than the XBox 360 (at this point). This is due to the fact that the XBox 360 tools are evolutionary from the original XBox and the PS3's are brand new and quite crude in comparison. Remember, that Microsoft has a long and established track record of creating development tools and libraries for "extrapolated" systems. In other words they can be deployed across a variety of hardware systems. This has been a significant benefit to the XBox 360 development toolset.

3) The XBox 360 has 3 Multi-Threaded CPUs. The first generation of games are only using one thread on one CPU. This is because the tools were not available in time to fully support the archictecture. The Sony Cell processor is a BITCH to program for, and even harder to make quality tools for. Remember, all of the demos you have seen so far were running on "hardware simulations" of the type of power the PS3 will offer - programming the actual Cell processor to do it though will be a major undertaking.

That is all!

To PeterS

Thank you very much for supporting most of my assertions. SCEI fans just don't understand that their favorite platform is in a serious trouble and is guaranteed to lose the 5th generation format war against Xbox 360.

When PSX3 goes down in a fight against Xbox 360, BR-ROM goes down with PSX3. This is why I keep stating that PSX3 is a non-factor in blue laser disc format war and BR-ROM camp has to find a backup plan(Vista Media Center PCs and Chinese manufacturers) in their war against HD-DVD.

I don't think you've quite grasped the fact that this is not a videogame forum.

Would this quote invalidate any of the above reasoning ... ?

From the main thread --> Move and Countermove

Also, I think you've gone a bit far in asuming I support "most of your assertions".

Yes the PS3 will is more expensive to develop for.

However, it has a much better "world-wide" track record. There will be at least a year of benefit in favor of the XBox 360. Should Microsoft use that time wisely and put out superior product, then it stands a great chance of ending up on top. However, do not count Sony out.

Sony's main problem right now is getting the product finished and their cost structure down. $300 - $400 is their "Target" pricing. If they can not get there by next Christmas, a more reasonable price will be $500.

Also, realize how few CE companies are going to want to produce a "high-end" BR-DVD player at $1,000 if Sony is selling the PS3 at under $500. This is also a strong problem for them, and why Toshiba is courting Chinese HD-DVD manufacturers.

It ain't over yet!

The same was said about Nintendo64's launch. Afterall, Nintendo owned console market for 10 years, so how could they lose???

So even you get the feeling that MS will probably win this generation.

And Xbox 360 core system would have dropped to $200 and be in full production by the time PSX3 launches.

Exactly, BR-ROM is essentially a PSX3's proprietary format, with no other vender supporting it.

The reason Toshiba was able to sign up Chinese manufacturers is that there is money to be made in HD-DVD players; nobody including Toshiba and Microsoft(The inevitable Xbox 360 HD-DVD edition launching on PSX3's launch day to deflate PSX3's hype) is selling at loss, so Chinese could drop the player price down to $300 and still turn a profit.