RX-D702B Unofficial Owners Thread - Page 2

I am contemplaing purchase of a D702B, and finding this thread is very helpful. However, I am in a real pickle about the HDMI thing...I just got my new Denon DVD-2910 player (which has HDMI out), and I am anticipating receipt of a Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK with HDMI card. My dream, like everyone else's, is one-button switching of all sources with maximum picture and audio quality.

But I need some intelligent input and experience from you folks on the following nagging questions:

1. The 2910 is reported to have a great scaler, which can convert 480p to 1080i (or is it 720p?) out of the HDMI terminal -- should make a nice difference in DVD image quality on the plasma. But what about the audio signal? It's my understanding that signals coming in on HDMI to the D702B are simply passed through. Does this mean I can't get bass management or DSP on the audio? I can get bass management in the 2910, but I cannot live without synthesized surround (such as PLIIx) on 2-channel sources.

2. Can I use just the video signal over HDMI into the D702B and get audio from the digital output (coax) from the 2910? Will the D702B let me separate signals like this?

3. I very much want to do anything to improve the quality of SDTV signals from my cable supplier. My Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD DVR does not do upscaling. There is a very nice scaler in the Panny plasma..but I understand that it only works on signals coming in on component...NOT HDMI. Does this sound right? If so, then I can't take advantage of the HDMI switching of the D702B anyway, and I'll end up having to do source switching between DVD and TV. Any comments or other strategies?

I see comments from reviewers and forum members that they can't see a huge difference in HDMI and component image quality. Is this true? What are your experiences? If this is true...then why should I not stop foaming at the mouth over HDMI and simply find a good receiver with component switching?

Thanks for your help.

NCguy,

First a disclaimer -- my 702 is still out of service and I'm waiting for the replacement from JVC, so I'm working from memory. However I think i can at least answer your second question. My cable box is an SA 3450 with DVI out. I had that hooked to the JVC's HDMI input and since there's no audio on DVI used the digitial optical input on the JVC. Worked fine and I had full access to DSP on the audio. The only input from my DVD player was HDMI and I believe (but can't verify at the moment) that I had full access to Dolby D, DTS and the various DSP modes.

As for question 3, I can only point out that the JVC does NOT offer upscaling over the HDMI connections, only over component, S and composite. I have no experience with the Panny plasma.

As for PQ on HDMI vs. composite, I don't think there is a simple answer. Whether it's a combination of displays and sources, or personal preferences, some see a significant difference and others little or none. I saw a significant improvement moving to a Sony DVD upscaling player with HDMI and believe there is a minor improvement from STB signals passed over DVI/HDMI. What I did love was the simplified switching offered by the JVC.

Hope that answers a few of your questions.

Let me take a stab at some of your questions that jpm150 didn't answer. By the way, jpm I really hope you get your new receiver soon. I've been checking the thread from time to time and you've got the patience of Jobe. I probably would have gone for someone's throat by now.

#1 - I believe that video and video only is passed though HDMI untouched. By that I mean that any video signal going into the receiver via composite, component, s-video or HDMI will simply pass through the HDMI cable. Audio through HDMI is manageable. I usually leave my setting in "Auto Surround" and let the DVD player or tuner give me the proper audio. If you're playing a DVD that's DTS, Dolby or whatever, it automatically gives you what you input. You can still play with the settings and change them to Hall or Theater or whatever you're interested in.

#2 - As jpm said (he's probably cheating and looking at his manual), you can certainly separate the video from audio with no problems.

#3 - I'm kinda curious about this one because I'm wondering if you took the component out from your tuner to component into the receiver, would the Panny know that you haven't got anything connected into the set via component? Would it not work since it has detected the HDMI connection instead of component? I suspect it would know and you probably wouldn't be able to take advantage of having a one cable connection. I find it hard to believe it wouldn't scale an HDMI inputted signal, though.

I personally don't see a huge difference between component and HDMI on my set either, but I do see a slight difference. I see enough that it bothered me and wanted to do something about it. The 702 did the trick.

Just to add to this, (Disclaimer: I have no active HDMI devices in my entire house at the moment, so all of this is theoretical) are you planning on sending audio OUT from the 702B TO the TV through HDMI? I don't believe anyone here has successfully tested whether that is possible or can be done with the 702B here on AVSForum.com yet. (At least I haven't seen anyone test that out, most folks are interested in only using HDMI FROM the 702B TO their HDTV for video purposes, not for audio)

I believe any INCOMING audio on an HDMI connection into the 702B will bypass the internal DSP and surround sound modes and be passed directly through to the HDMI "monitor out" on the 702B, thus going straight to your TV. If you want to use the HDMI "switching" feature with one button, you need to set up digital optical/coaxial audio OUT from your DVD player or Cable box INTO your 702B for audio, and use the HDMI-OUT from the DVD player or Cable box INTO your 702B for video-only purposes. That way you can still use the 702B to decode your audio stream, set up surround sound fields, process audio with the DSP and Digital EQ, but leave the video signal alone and unmolested.

Hope that helps with your #1 question....

[quote=JBy the way, jpm I really hope you get your new receiver soon. I've been checking the thread from time to time and you've got the patience of Jobe. I probably would have gone for someone's throat by now.

[/QUOTE]
UPS tells me JVC finally got my broken receiver today. Now we'll see how long it takes to get a replacement sent. Their intentions seem good, it's just the execution that's been lacking.
I'm patient because I have no other choice and my old Yamaha is keeping me entertained while I wait.

nice review. keep up the input..

Hi,
I just ordered a 702b and have a question about the upconvert that I think was asked above, but I didn't see an answer. I have a Sony DVD player that I'll connect to the 702b via component video and digitial audio. I'm planning on connecting to the tv with only hdmi out.
Will this JVC unit upconvert the 480 dvd to 1080i or 1080p? Seems noted by others that only a 480i will maybe get converted to 480p. I thought this unit is supposed to upconvert to hdmi ?
Thanks.

jeff_wk,

Upconverting and Upsampling are two different things.

Upconverting means that an incoming interlaced (odd lines/even lines) video signal will be converted into an outgoing progressive scan (full screen refresh every fram) video signal.

Upsampling/Upscaling means that an incoming signal at 480 can have new pixels "interpolated" (added) into the video stream to fill either 1024x720 or 1920x1080 resolutions.

The JVC RX-D702B will NOT Upsample or Upscale to my knowledge. It will only Upconvert an interlaced video signal into a progressive scan video signal. To get DVD videos to upscale/upsample to HDTV resolutions, you need to get a DVD player that can perform the conversion for you, then send that signal through either HDMI or Component Video Out to the JVC RX-D702B receiver.

Furthermore, here's some good info about what DCDi means exactly on the JVC RX-D702B:

Hi,
I forgot this question....
I was on another a/v forum and one of the mediators said about the JVC 402b and 702b that he thought the watts / channel rating is overstated by JVC. From reading this thread, I got the impression that the power of the 702b is fairly impressive. Do you current owners feel like you're getting 150 w/ channel (I don't mean continuous, but like any other analog 150 watt / channel receiver)?
My brother was looking at the lower cost 402b. Do you think it will perform like a 110w / channel unit? The exact quote from the mediator is below; and I'll keep this anonymous.
I wonder if he is not accustomed to this newer lower-profile, digital amp such as these two JVCs or the Pany?

"I have seen this receiver in the store and just by looking at it I do not believe for a second that it can maintain even close to 110watts per ch. first of all the size of the Caps inside are way to small probably half the size of what my 100watts per ch unit are and as the caps are the resurve power for the amplifire section I hope you wont be using more then half of that power or you may be dissapointed. (JVC likes to over rate there HTR units alot)."

Thanks TubbyTreats for that explanation. My current Sony dvd player has a
setting for interlaced, progressive or auto. So, I guess it should not get any improvement going through the 702b. Hopefully it will not get worse for some compability reason.
I'm looking forward to trying out the unit though. Hopefully it will be here by Friday so I can play this weekend.
Thanks again...

jeff_wk,

You should probably read through this comprehensive review on Sound and Vision Magazine:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1

Thanks again TubbyTreats.
Yes, I did read that already and that's part of what prompted my question. Problem is that I'm not audio-literate enough to know what the technical jargon means in comparison to other units like an analog unit that states it is 150/channel. If an analog unit were described that way; would you consider those to be good specs?

I was curious if receivers have any way to get their microcode updated like
other internet-connected devices? Or you buy it and that's it, even if bugs are noted?

Tubby, et al; I'm confused again given a definition of upconvert that I've read several times...

"To convert one set of values to a higher set of values. For example, HDTV sets upconvert common 480i TV or 480p DVD content to 720p, 1080i or 1080p."

But, in any case, you're saying the 702b does not convert lower res to higher res?

Below is from a JVC press release on the 402b and 702b.

"To ensure the best possible video signal, regardless of the source, both the RX-D401S/D402B (S = silver; B = black) and the RX-D702B up-convert composite, S-Video and component signals to HDMI. Handling the HDMI up-conversion is a Genesis deinterlacer that incorporates DCDi® (Directional Correlational Deinterlacing) technology from Faroudja. Both receivers include two HDMI inputs and one output."

Anybody know specifically what their use of the word "up-convert" means? I realize it has become an industry buzz-word. Do they really mean, that it simply converts analog to digital, but in the same resolution it was in? Or is it really upscaling to 1080i or p?

I think alot of companies mis-use the "upconvert" term. From all of my research and personal knowledge, my definition in my previous post applies still. People might use the word "upconvert" but really that refers to the conversion of an interlaced video signal into a progressive scan video signal, rather than truly describing the "interpolating" of new pixels into the video stream to make a higher resolution image.


JVC components are NOT firmware upgradeable I believe. Some manufacturers DO have this capability, (DENON and others) but it is not an available feature for most sub-$1000 USD receivers.

The JVC RX-D702B does NOT convert a 480p/i signal into 720p or 1080i by itself. If the signal is already coming IN to the unit at a higher resolution, it can pass it through after processing by the DCDi Faroudja DSP chip, but will not add any new pixels of resolution to the incoming signal or change aspect ratios.

I don't know how many times I can share this, but the JVC RX-D702B will NOT add any additional pixels into an incoming video stream, thereby increasing the resolution of the incoming video stream. It simply will be able to correct jagged lines and artifacts that come as a result of interlacing. It can convert an interlaced incoming video signal into an outgoing progressive scan signal, but will not change resolutions of the output signal to HDTV resolutions. (Unless the incoming source was an HDTV resolution format, the receiver will not be able to export video into HDTV resolutions)

I know it's a bit irritating, but you have to admit that it is confusing for the novice, particularly due to the marketing ads and abuse of terms like upconvert.
I am trying though...I read the pdf's at the bottom of this url; http://www.meridian-audio.com/faroudja/technology.html and that's helping me some.

I would really like to know which Genesis chipset is in the 702B unit because what I think you've been saying is that this receiver is only deinterlacing non-hd and smoothing the edges via DCDi technology as is defined in these pdfs. Interestingly, the second pdf entitled info_display_part2.pdf states that the following technologies had previously been separate but are now combined in the Genesis family of chipsets known as FLI2300: deinterlacer, including adaptive de-interlacing with film mode, DCDi, cross-color suppression, noise reducers, SCALERS, and frame rate reducers.
I emphasized scalers because you mentioned scaling as the correct name for increasing resolution.
If scaling is not part of the 702B capabilities then I guess it has a limited chipset from Genesis.
From what I've read, even those who include upscaling as part of the "definition" of upconversion still state that upscaling does not increase the resolution since that's basically impossible once the image was sampled at a lower rate. But, instead, I guess the original image is interpolated into more pixels so it can be displayed on a HD screen.
All conjecture on my part. I'm just reading stuff and trying to understand.

Thanks again for your input.

It's ok, I just wanted to be sure you were reading my responses fully. For a minute there it didn't seem like what I was typing was sinking in or perhaps it was a bit too hard to understand.

Think of the DCDi Faroudja chip like this: It takes ANY resolution incoming video signal and processes it. If the incoming signal is interlaced (odd/even lines) then it will convert the image to progressive scan and add in some sort of image correction and sharpness filters to the signal. If the incoming signal is already progressive scan, then it will simply enhance the colors, contrast, and color balance of elements in that video signal, but will not need to do any converting of interlaced to progressive scan.

If an incoming signal into the Faroudja DCDi chip is in HDTV format (either 1024x720p or 1920x1080i), then the JVC RX-D702B will output the video into either 1024x720p or 1920x1080p resolution.

If the incoming signal is from a standard DVD player, it will be in this standard resolution, 720x576i. The Faroudja DCDi chip will output the video signal at 720x576p.

If the incoming signal is from a progressive-scan DVD player, it will be in this standard resolution, 720x576p. The Faroudja DCDi chip will output the video signal at 720x576p.

If the incoming signal is from standard broadcast television it will be in 640x480i resolution. The Faroudja DCDi chip will output the video signal at 640x480p.

Just think of the Faroudja DCDi chip as an INTERLACED -> PROGRESSIVE SCAN converter. It does does do some image manipulation and cleanup of artifacts in the video signal, but does NOT change video resolutions as some DVD players sold today will be able to do.


You are correct in stating that the "interpolation" algorithm that is done by many "upscaling" or "upsampling" DVD players is simply a math formula to create new pixels based on the positions of existing pixels from the previous video frame, the current video frame, as well as the next video frame. The algorithm allows for new pixels to be created based upon the surrounding video material, and does a great job usually of adding new definition to a lower resolution input video signal. It never will look as good as a true HDTV signal, shot on true HDTV video cameras or film, but will certainly help older videos look better until we get HD-DVD's in mass quantities.

Crutchfield.com states this about the JVC RX-D702B:

Yes, I read that one too.
That's why it seems that perhaps only the DCDi part of Faroudja technology might be employed here. I'd still like to know more about this though.

Hi Tubbytreats,
I didn't see your longer explanation prior to your last entry, til now.
If the incoming resolution doesn't change, then it must be
only DCDi part of Genesis technology. Too bad upscaling is not also
in the mix. Thanks again for your assistance.

Thanks to all for your responses...a wealth of info.

That's enough to make me proceed with the purchase of the 702B. I will do the following:

Connect DVD-2910 to the 702B using HDMI, using the 2910's internal scaler to upscale the 480p to 1080i (or is it 720p) for the Panny plasma, allowing the 702B to pass the video signal through unaffected.

Connect the digital audio out of the 2910 to the 702B so I can use the 702B's digital processing if desired.

Connect the 5.1 analog outputs of the 2910 to the 702B so I can use the very excellent internal decoding/processing of the 2910 if desired.

Connect the AS cable box via component into the 702B, moving it through the 702B unaffected into component out..so that the Panny plasma's scaler can upscale the crappy 480i to 1080i (or is it 720p).

Sound right?

But the magic question remains: will the Panny only upscale on the component inputs? That's what I'm told. And the second question then becomes -- if the Panny senses both HDMI and component inputs, will it still upscale on the component inputs?

God what a hobby.....I have a PhD in engineering and this s*** makes my head spin.

Hi, I finally received my 702b in the mail today but having trouble getting it to behave.
Seems I have a similar issue as mfwic.
I connected hdmi from Comcast to receiver and hdmi out to plasma tv.
Got audio, but video doesn't work. I see the image for a split second, then
the tv starts flashing green background continuously. The hdmi light on the receiver flashes a bit as well. That's the first thing.
I then decided to see if only the dvd player would work. There's only component out on that. I plugged into the dvd component connections on the back of the receiver and ran an optical cable to digital port 2. I get video, but no sound.
I read above somewhere that the hdmi dvd connection is hard coded. Is that the case
with the digitial audio as well? In other words, the default digital audio connection for dvd is not optical, but rather coax on port 1. Is coax connection mandatory for dvd player? Or, do you think I have some other issue?
I did select video and audio on the remote as someone suggested.

I did get the dvd player to work, but not with digital sound.
I ran analog rca jacks from dvd to 702b then hdmi to tv and
that works fine. I really want to be able to use the digitial
sound though for dvd and also get the picture working on
the tv from comcast box. Any ideas ?

Ok, all is working !!
I ran both the DVD and Comcast box video via component cables. Then one hdmi cable from the RX-720 out to the tv. Ran the dvd player audio w/ digital coax and the Comcast audio w/ fiber. The issue w/ dvd sound yesterday was a setting on my dvd player; so that's fixed. I've set up surround, but not fine-tuned. The clap thing seems to get everything initially set up pretty quickly.

My feelings so far:
1. The sound is very noticably better than the analog surround receiver I had. That one was a Harmon Kardon AVR 20II. Nice unit, not high-end but not weak either.
I guess my excitement over the sound is probably a combination of both the digital sound and this receiver. But, I have to say this unit has plenty of punch for me. I don't hear the hiss that I used to hear with my HK during quiet moments. Everything is very alive sounding.
2. I believe the HD channels look better than they did; very crisp, well defined and good color definition. SDTV looks about the same, but I haven't scrutinized it very much either.
3. Decided not to even attempt further to get hdmi in from the Comcast box given three main reasons: 1) it may not work with all the security code thing and all, 2) I'd heard hdmi might make the SDTV channels look worse, 3) issues with the order of power-up and shutdown. So, this was my compromise which so far I'm happy with (two whole hours).
4. One cable from the A/V to the tv other than the power cord. That was one of my major goals because I didn't want to have to run 11 cables through the wall.
5. The manual for this unit is horribly bad. I guess if you're a guru, most of it would make sense. I was able to get through the setup mostly with the help of your web site and some other sources for which I'm glad to say "Thanks Much !!".

I'll have to run this awhile before giving an official thumbs up. But, so far I'm ecstatic with the results; "very happy".
Thanks again for your help everybody.

jeff_wk,

Glad to hear you got things worked out and are enjoying the RX-D702B. I really enjoy mine, have been using it alot lately with none of the reported "heat issues" and been loving every minute of it.

I also was having problems with the LG 511 DVD player via HDMI as others on this thread, where I would see the splash screen, then it would blink and nothing. I thought it was maybe the HDCP handshake since it works fine directly connected to the TV. I found a hack for another LG DVD player (DV-9800H) on videohelp.com that disables HDCP, and it works now with video through HDMI. I've thought about trying shorter HDMI cables and reenabling HDCP to see if that will help since the timings will be affected. My HDMI cables now are about 8ft each.

Thanks Tubbytreats for your help. I feel the same way; I'm really enjoying my new JVC. I have one of those cabinets built into the wall of my living room with a platform on it and shelves above kind of thing and I struggled with whether to put all the equipment into the cabinet hidden using an IR extender. But, then I would have to deal with the heat issue. Instead I removed all the shelves (which were not deep enough to hold components) above the platform and bought a glass component shelf to sit on top of the cabinet part. It really looks nice and I don't have to worry about heat buildup like the cabinet idea. The shelf is real-wood stained mahogany and is five component tiers high (about 46" in a 47" high inset). I have my center speaker just below the top glass, the dvd below, comcast below that and the receiver on the bottom. The shelf I bought was $150 at Circuit City and is Called the Gusdorf Audio Tower - #61325 if anyone is interested. It hides the cables well too.
And finally, I have the 50" plasma sitting on top of my fireplace mantle next to the shelf I mentioned above. This weekend I put a faceplate behind the tube and also cut into the side of the cabinet mentioned above to run the wires about 8 feet. This was only power and hdmi cables, so not too bad. Used a fishing pole with duct tape to bind the cable to the pole and snake through to the cabinet holes. The wires are well enough away from the fireplace flue; no issue. We probably won't use the fireplace given the location of the tv. But, I'm not that concerned since we usually just put in a single duralog.
So, just a few more adjustments and I'm done.
Thanks again for your help Tubbytreats.