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Belkin launch "in cable" video processor - PureAV RazorVision - Page 2  

post #31 of 214
Okay. I had a fun day playing with the Razorvision. I just read bytehoven's post and I agree with him 100%. The blooming is there but controllable on the low setting. I also did not experience any color problems using this device. My patterns with color were still rich and were the same during my A/B tests. I do agree about the artificial sharpness that is added to the picture. Now here is my funniest part of my experiment. I had guests over tonite. I had them sit there while I would show them a picture or scene with the Razorvision on low and then without it at all (disconnected with the HDMI cable going straight to the pj). And after 4 or 5 A/Bs I was pretty shocked to hear 4 different people all say they liked B better which was with the Razorvision. Now these are not your typical AVS people who will study the picture like it is a final exam (like me). So I asked them why do you like B better. Their answers were more detailed, with a sharper image. They also said close ups were 3D like. I admit I do like the way credits look with the razorvision on. A title before a movie with following credits just look so clear and 3D. Anyway, they also said the image just seemed clearer. So, there I was ready to disconnect the Razorvision so we could watch our movie when they all said, leave it on, we think it looks better...I spent the most of today tweaking with Avia, and then double checking with 720p DVHS version. I am trying to find an excuse to say this Razorvision is a gimmick and it shouldn't work. But bytehoven is right, it does work in a weird way. If you can control the blooming (which I did), and do not have color inaccuracies (which I don't), then with an added sharpness that makes the image appear more crisper, how can I not justify this device(since I opened it yesterday I have been planning to return it). I am really looking forward to the NFL HD games this Saturday and Sunday to see what it does. If it could add an extra kick (no pun intended) then I would atleast consider keeping it for sports. The movies tonite on regular dvd had a HD look with the HD sharpness due to the Razorvision(and it was not psychological). And at its price it is much more cheaper than the new DVDO scaler. You just have to be willing to make the adjustments around it. I still plan to play with it the rest of the weekend. I will be taking pictures tomorrow...I am sorry if I still am on the fence with this device, its just hard to believe it achieves what it does. Logicaly thinking it should not have this effect(I am still skeptcal). I will post again sometime this weekend...Anyone else experimenting, please post your results as well...And yes, it does have a true effect unlike those mats Q: )
post #32 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
OK, that was fast.

The RazorVision is a very interesting device.

It appears to act similar to the GAMMA control on the HS-51, working mainly in the 20-60% video range, making the darker range brighter. But it does so in a different and wierd way. You notice a bloom effect on the lighter side of a dark/light contrast. Switching from LOW to MED to HI causes the bloom to increase. It's almost like a soft Photoshop bevel effect. It is very apparent looking at any kind of color bar or gray scale pattern. To some degree, it looks a little like how the NEC Sweetvision added seperation between light/dark contrast, but SweetVision offered a little more control and a clean process with no blooming. The RazorVision on MED and especially HI, are almost out of control.

It's an interesting effect.

It is very easy to see additional noise in solid color patterns, particularly in the 40-60% video range. So any mpeg or film grain noise/detail in the image is increased by being made darker, which explains why there is an allusion of added sharpness.

The 200 TVL and moving resolution AVIA patterns did not show any additional ringing, but mpeg noise around dark letters and along dark lines was increased.

The main problem is what it does to color. The processing effects the color values an dnot just their video level. Red bars on the AVIA Y/C test pattern shifted toward brown rather than a deeper red. The SMPTE color bar patterns showed similar color reproduction issues.

Bottom line for me... I can achieve the similar results by boosting my projectors GAMMA and sharpness, but without any of the blooming and color issues.

I commend the product for trying to push the envelope. It needs a little more user control over the parameters, in order to make the device more useful and less of a gimmick.

I might note there was a UBS port next to the power supply port, so the device may be capable of some custom programming or updates.

I'mm be returning my unit but it was a fun experiment.
Okay, I've got ya. So it's basically an adaptive gamma processor designed to bring more sharpness and contrast to the image.

I'm too used to all this stuff to be fooled by something as simple as that, but I can certainly understand that people could be convinced it's better looking. Hopefully some sales and firmware inprovement latter they might be able to turn it into a quite capable device for those of us without reference setups.
post #33 of 214
Thread Starter 
If one looked at the links from the original post, one would see that ...

Processor in Belkin cable is a Digivision DV1000.

DV1000 supports 1080p.

DV1000 image enhancement consists of:
- Gamma and chroma processing (as posters above spotted)
- Locally adaptive enhancement filter (otherwise known as 'unsharpen mask')
- Large convolution kernel filter (otherwise known as 'gaussian smoothing')

* Google will link many articles showing the maths behind these filters and before/after images.

It's not clear from their product material, but DV1000 may also include:
- Pixon LLC's digital image reconstruction filter (otherwise known as 'deblurring and denoising')

* This link http://www.pixon.com/publications/Puetter_05_ARAA.pdf to see how that works.

All classic industrial image processing stuff ... no suprise, seeing as Digivision has been doing industial imaging since 1983 ... but apparently used to fool medical / military imaging experts into convincing themselves they are seeing a better looking image?

Stare at Avia and DVE test patterns all you like, but obviously these filters won't be apparent on those static test patterns -- but you know that right? -- one needs to view these filters on moving video signal or at least a photo. ;)

Perhaps it's the reverse of Carled's comment: i.e. a case of staring at test patterns convinces one that nothing is happening or changed, but room full of (non AVS people) says "movie picture is much better"?

However, it does sound like the limited controls on the Belkin box make DV1000 less useful than it could be.

StooMonster
post #34 of 214
I used the Digivision HT70-e, several years ago. I even posted some pictures, which I can't find in the Archives, of the change it makes to the image.

I found that it was helpful, back then, with LCOS projectors more than DLP, because it helped to compensate for the percieved lack of sharpness, and haze over the picture. In fact, if you watch Digivisions demonstration video, I think that is a pretty good imitation of the way the older LCOS projectors looked. (I haven't seen the Ruby, but up to the HD2K, there was still a fair amount of haze over the image).

Anyway, when I switched back to DLP, I got a little tired of the "enhancement" that Digivision provided, and eventually took it out of the video chain. Now I am a bit curious, if they have improved it at all, and will be trying it to see if I like it. I am also curious how it looks with HD since it wouldn't handle it before.
post #35 of 214
I think I solved the color issues I was having.

A combination of a new Da-Lite HP screen which has a slight blue push, and a little WB error on the projector setup, was being magnified by the RazorVisions gamma shifting.

Once I retweaked WB with a grayscale pattern, colors are holding up very well, although I still feel red goes a little toward orange/brown, although not a bunch.

RazorVision definitely works. It's worth checking out as you might enjoy the processed image.

I look forward to seeing were the product goes and if the USB port is used to allow any tweaks by owners.
post #36 of 214
Okay, you guys have talked me into it, what the heck, it's the holidays, time to spend some money on myself, possibly foolishly, possibly not... :p :D
post #37 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
...
- Locally adaptive enhancement filter (otherwise known as 'unsharpen mask')
Ah ha! Detail from brown and gray goo explained.

Quote:
- Large convolution kernel filter (otherwise known as 'gaussian smoothing')...
Thanks for defining that--I thought it was just word salad.
post #38 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
- Locally adaptive enhancement filter (otherwise known as 'unsharpen mask')
Gack, an unsharpen mask. Horrible.

Quote:
Large convolution kernel filter (otherwise known as 'gaussian smoothing')
Gaussian smoothing is all right. It's not as bad filter in FFDShow.

Quote:
All classic industrial image processing stuff ... no suprise, seeing as Digivision has been doing industial imaging since 1983 ... but apparently used to fool medical / military imaging experts into convincing themselves they are seeing a better looking image?
Yup, none of this is new.

The implimentation of these sort of filters varies between 'awful' and 'rather nice', of course.

Quote:
Stare at Avia and DVE test patterns all you like, but obviously these filters won't be apparent on those static test patterns -- but you know that right? -- one needs to view these filters on moving video signal or at least a photo. ;)
The gamma adjustments will be. Certainlly adaptive sharpening and bluring filters won't be on static images much, but there are a few moving paterns like the zone plate where the effect might show up.
post #39 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled
Certainlly adaptive sharpening and bluring filters won't be on static images much, but there are a few moving paterns like the zone plate where the effect might show up.
Actually, the AVIA zone plate patterns did not show any enhancement I could tell.

Anything as extreme as dark black letter/lines on a very white back ground, do not get much processing except for a boost in any already apparent mpeg noise.

The process seems to have a threshold of approx 20-80% of the video luminance spectrum.
post #40 of 214
Well, this product certainly has me intrigued. I'd be especially curious if any DLP owners try this and what effect it has on banding (if any). Picture sharpness on HD programming isn't really a problem with DLP, but smoother gradients would be very valuable to me, and sharper SD pictures would be a bonus.

Scott
post #41 of 214
Well, as my Razorvision experiment continues, I am doing a quick, short post (tomorrow I will do a more extensive one). The Chiefs/Giants game on CBS in HD looked good but when I tried the Razorvision it went "next level" to say the least. It was a more intense, dramatic picture. If anything I will be keeping this device for sports. I am still not for sure on the movie enhancements. We did watch ELF tonite and everyone again after A/Bing was in favor of the Razorvision. It was my next door neighbors tonite. Again not super technical people. Tomorrow I have an AV nut coming over and I will A/B him to death to get his reaction. Christmas Vacation (the movie) earlier today looked okay, the dvd has never been an eyecandy disc. The Razorvision may emphasize, like I predicted before, imperfections from the source element of the disc. Some scenes were nice and sharp with good color, though without the device it was a smoother film. But better discs can look even better. More on that later...The NFL game was very cool. I like the sharpness of the jerseys and helmets. The score was always bold and easier to read. Also the artificial turf looked better. I kept going back from low to mid. With football mid is tolerable. I still probably prefer the low setting though. Tomorrow I will know more when I can switch back and forth between a few games in HD. With the extra "pop" the games look more and more 3D like. My guests were blown away when they were here at the end of the game tonite...Then they asked me if I was having a Superbowl party, go figure!
post #42 of 214
Fascinating...looking forward to your next post! :)
post #43 of 214
For those of you with projectors and long HDMI cable runs, how would you use this?

ie-I have an HDMI cable coming out of the wall that I plug directly into my cable company's HD DVR.
post #44 of 214
MoG, I have my razorvision closer to my PJ. It is actualy within 2 feet of it. I have a long 35 foot Monster HDMI and it connects to the device. Then I have a 4 foot Monster HDMI cable that connects to a M1000 Monster DVI to HDMI ponytail (makes the dvi connection not stick out as much as a DVI to HDMI adaptor). Anyway, my device is unseen because it is in my chief cma330 ceiling mounted plate (has an offest with a nice gap for wires or a razorvision). Now, the razorvision does come with screws so you can ceiling mount it or wall mount it. It even has a template to help assist you in mounting it. The other thing to remember is that it does have to plug into power. I have my outlet hidden in my ceiling in a box. So the plug from my pj comes out of the rubber gomet and now the little wire from the razorvision comes out with it. I do have both plugged into a monster power (very small) protector inside the box...Now, back to work!
post #45 of 214
Thread Starter 
Any sign that the VP1000 is using the Pixon LLC's digital image reconstruction filter? Or is this limited to Digivision's military / medical / space products?

The documentation on the link in post #33 looks really impressive, the spy satellite enhancement photos are very good.

StooMonster
post #46 of 214
joerod,

Do the RazorVision's enhancements seem to be adaptive at all? In other words, say the Low setting is good enough to improve a lower quality SD or DVD image; would a higher quality HD image then look overenhanced, or would it generally be acceptable?
post #47 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1920x1080
Do the RazorVision's enhancements seem to be adaptive at all?

You didn't ask me but may I just say, Razorvision does not "improve" the image, it manipulates it a manner which some may find entertaining.

In one aspect the Razorvision processing is similar to using the Dynamic Gamma mode on your display versus Natural. A purist is going to prefer the natural flat gamma reproduction. Someone else might prefer having the middle 2/3s of the luminance range expanded to enhance shawdow detail and boost mid range whites even higher.

Then when you take into account the extra noise which can be generated from the sharpness kick, your're headed toward an image which is less smooth and can exhibit EE artifacts.

I have to give Razorvision a thumbs up for being an interesting process. It's almost a 3d drop shawdow effect between dark & light contrast areas, which can make the dark area seem to seperate a little from the brighter screne elements.

Razorvision is worth checking out since CC has such a great return policy.

I hope they offer an enhanced version with more user controls, or a way to customize the programming thru the USB port.
post #48 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod
MoG, I have my razorvision closer to my PJ. It is actualy within 2 feet of it. I have a long 35 foot Monster HDMI and it connects to the device. Then I have a 4 foot Monster HDMI cable that connects to a M1000 Monster DVI to HDMI ponytail (makes the dvi connection not stick out as much as a DVI to HDMI adaptor). Anyway, my device is unseen because it is in my chief cma330 ceiling mounted plate (has an offest with a nice gap for wires or a razorvision). Now, the razorvision does come with screws so you can ceiling mount it or wall mount it. It even has a template to help assist you in mounting it. The other thing to remember is that it does have to plug into power. I have my outlet hidden in my ceiling in a box. So the plug from my pj comes out of the rubber gomet and now the little wire from the razorvision comes out with it. I do have both plugged into a monster power (very small) protector inside the box...Now, back to work!
hi joerod, am i right to say that you did not use the pureav cables that come with the razorvision? Or is the razorvision processor box is available for sale as a standalone unit? Is it necessary to use the supplied cables to work or can i use any HDMI or DVI cables?

Thanks
post #49 of 214
wwwyjoe, I am not using the PureAV cables that came with the RazorVision. I wanted to keep the same color cables (black in my case) by the pj. The pureAV ones are lighter color. They are high quality cables and I would have no problem using them from a dvd player to AV receiver or HD TIVO to AV receiver. The devices do not come seperate. They either come with 8 foot (4 foot x 2) or 16 foot (8 foot x 2)...
1020X1080, I am liking the lower level enhancement for HDTV. Mainly for sports so far. The bears/falcons game looks terrific with the extra "pop" tp it. So did the colts/chargers game and cowboys/skins game. I have not tried a movie in HD but the trailors I reviewed looked great. One in particular was exceptional, King Kong! Anyway, I am still checking out different broadcasts and different movies in HD and dvd. My full report will come soon... One last thing, depending on the NFL game and where it is (indoor or outdoor) and maybe the broadcaster's cameras, sometimes setting the enhancement to mid level is better. Sometimes low is. Tonites bears game looks better on mid level while the colts game was optimal on low level. More on that later...But I am definitely keeping this device for sports and maybe movies!!!
post #50 of 214
Joe:

Are you using a standalone V.P. (DVDO, Algolith, etc.)?

Anyone else?

If so, how does it compare to PureAV? :)
post #51 of 214
My experience with the earlier version (HT70-e) and an earlier version of the Algolith (Miranda) was that I preferred the detail, and contrast enhancement of the Digivision product (I returned the Miranda). How this new Belkin incarnation compares to the detail enhancement, in the latest incarnation from Algolith, I don't know, but of course, the Algolith also does a few other tricks that the Razorvision doesn't.
post #52 of 214
Good point Free, but what is the cost of the Algolith? The Razorvision is one heck of a bargain for what it does and what it costs...
post #53 of 214
Not only that Joerod, but the cost of the Digivision HT70-e, was about $2000, a couple of years ago, and came in a box the size of a DVD player. Now all the functionality of that processor (with the addition of handling HD) is in a chip and a small package for $2-300. :)
post #54 of 214
Is anyone using this with a video processor? If so is the razorvision between the source and the processor or the processor and the display?
post #55 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
Is anyone using this with a video processor? If so is the razorvision between the source and the processor or the processor and the display?
Belkin recommneds putting the Razorvision after the video processor.

As soon as my new VP gets here, I am going to test it with 1080p.
post #56 of 214
Purchased today from J&R...2nd day air.

Will give impressions this weekend. :)
post #57 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
Is anyone using this with a video processor? If so is the razorvision between the source and the processor or the processor and the display?
Belkin recommneds putting the Razorvision after the video processor.

As soon as my new VP gets here, I am going to test it with 1080p.
post #58 of 214
What model is everyone buying. For Iscan users it would seem like model AV62400 would be the cable of choice given that we have a DVI out . Has anyone been able to get this model? I know CC doesn't carry it and J&R have no stock
post #59 of 214
My CC had the DVI out model, but only in the 16' $299 version.
post #60 of 214
Thread Starter 
I wonder about putting Razorvision after the video processor, anyone tried it before and compared the results?

StooMonster
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