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Belkin launch "in cable" video processor - PureAV RazorVision - Page 3  

post #61 of 214
A few test patterns may prove revealing.
post #62 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by doseofrealta
A few test patterns may prove revealing.
Looking at test patterns is revealing, and it isn't pretty.

If you were to go strictly by what the process does to test patterns, you might conclude the process is a waste of time.

Looking at content is a different matter, and although I do not like the processing, I can see how some might.
post #63 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lions
What model is everyone buying. For Iscan users it would seem like model AV62400 would be the cable of choice given that we have a DVI out . Has anyone been able to get this model? I know CC doesn't carry it and J&R have no stock
I had an HD+ and I have just upgraded to the VP30 running into my Panasonic DVI. So I just ordered the DVI/HDMI version from CC online this afternoon. It will ship today.
post #64 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
Looking at test patterns is revealing, and it isn't pretty.

If you were to go strictly by what the process does to test patterns, you might conclude the process is a waste of time.

Looking at content is a different matter, and although I do not like the processing, I can see how some might.
That's sort of what I'm getting from reading the posts here, this device is sort of like how one may want to increase the bass content of a particular recording, even though the system has been setup correctly with proper levels. It may not display a properly calibrated image but the results, good or bad, may appeal to some folks.
post #65 of 214
My uneducated guess here would be: Wouldn't these Razorvisions conflict in conjunction with a video processor?

In other words, if you're going for the kill with a video processor anyways, would you even bother with something like these RazorVisions?
post #66 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
I had an HD+ and I have just upgraded to the VP30 running into my Panasonic DVI. So I just ordered the DVI/HDMI version from CC online this afternoon. It will ship today.
Look forward to hearing your experience with the combination.
post #67 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
I wonder about putting Razorvision after the video processor

IIRC, that is what Belkin is recommending... :cool:
post #68 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
My uneducated guess here would be: Wouldn't these Razorvisions conflict in conjunction with a video processor?

In other words, if you're going for the kill with a video processor anyways, would you even bother with something like these RazorVisions?
Because they do something that your video processor doesn't do? To extrapolate your argument, you see no purpose in using a Mosquito in parallel with a video processor that does not have noise reduction?

StooMonster
post #69 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink
IIRC, that is what Belkin is recommending... :cool:
Hrm... English comprehension issue here. What I said was "I wonder about putting Razorvision after the video processor, anyone tried it before and compared the results?"

This means I am questioning putting the Razorvision after then video processor (as Belkin recommend), as before seems more logical to me. :rolleyes:

StooMonster
post #70 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
Because they do something that your video processor doesn't do? To extrapolate your argument, you see no purpose in using a Mosquito in parallel with a video processor that does not have noise reduction?

StooMonster
No! Unlike these cables, I can VERY clearly see and understand how the Mosquito's functions are quite different from a video processor.



Keeping in mind the title of this thread and the product descriptions:

I see a cable with a mini-VIDEO PROCESSOR in it. Novel idea, but not unique. This is why your statement puzzles me and I hope you can clarify it for me. Maybe I missed something. I have kept tabs on the thread.






Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
Belkin have announced a new range of DVI and HDMI cables called RazorVision, which utilise a "microprocessor" to improve the picture quality.
A VP does this. Actually, this is a mini VP.


Quote:

They claim benefits are: more image depth, increased contrast and visible details, brighter whites and blacker blacks, restored levels of details lost to glare and shadows, no edge-outline “halo†sometimes caused by other video processors.
A good VP does all of this and doesn't produce that last item, especially when calibrated properly. It's not supposed to, anyways.

Quote:

They also claim: works with all DVD and VCR players, PVRs, game consoles, PCs, and digital and analog cable, satellite, and off-air antenna sources.
VP's do this.

Quote:

http://www.pureav.com/razorvision/

$249.99

RazorVision's video processor is a DigiVision DV1000 http://www.digivision.com/ (thanks Joe Fernand, TMF) -- a chip used for image enhancement in medical, industrial, military and homeland security applications.
I see. And as we've seen throughout the thread, plenty of people know about these chips.

Pretty redundant, it would seem.

Quote:

QuickTime streaming demo: http://www.digivision.com/consumer_e...long_high.html

WMP download demo: http://www.digivision.com/videos/clip1_500.wmv

Internal 4:4:4 processing, automatic format detection, NTSC or PAL, 480i through 1080p, "The DV1000 features a locally adaptive enhancement that allows for bringing out fine details in light and dark areas simultaneously. The chip also does some chroma processing and large convolution kernel real-time enhancement."
Some technobabble, marketing jargon and...more textbook descriptions of what a videoprocessoer is supposed to do.

Quote:

http://www.digivision.com/images/con...nced_tiger.jpg

"Does the DV1000 work with line doublers/scalers?
Yes, the DV1000 works with virtually any line doubler or scaler on the market. The DV1000 typically is installed after the doubler/scaler for best results."

Have to say that the videos look quite impressive, anyone seen one of these in real life?

StooMonster
Thread is posted here too
I don't see anything here whatsoever that a good VP can't do. I'm really not trying to be dense or be a heckler.

What EXACTLY do these $250 cables do that a VP can't? Tell me what I'm missing here, please.

If these cables work well, the only advantages I can obviously see here is COST and room on a shelf or a rack. I don't think anyone would argue that.

Like that guy said in your AVForum thread at the UK: I can't help but kind of get that "As seen on TV" feeling...
post #71 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ

I'm really not trying to be dense or be a heckler.

You never do...
post #72 of 214
Quote:
I don't see anything here whatsoever that a good VP can't do. I'm really not trying to be dense or be a heckler.
I would guess that if it can provide a perceived PQ improvement for $250 that's a bargain for a simple plug and play device a novice could easily use versus committing thousands. A sort of VP tweak on the Cheap. I would guess many buyers may be folks that don't have a VP. I'm fairly new to the VP section and to be honest I have no idea of what type of improvement to expect from a VP besides reading Press Releases posted by the Vendors. Hard to commit to several thousand more when you have no idea of the results one will see and so some folks may be more willing to use this gadget and seeing it as no great loss. For current owners of quality VP's the story may be very different as your already dealing with a refined PQ.

I'm waiting to see more feedback on it before committing on it but $250 today isn't much of a risk for anyone considering a VP anyways. I don't expect anyone would expect it to replace a VP30 or other quality VP but as the one poster stated it has it's benefits for certain events like Sports. I have strong interest in seeing VP30 feedback with someone that owns a 45" Sharp LCD to decide if the $2K is really worth it - I'm not about to blow $2K without concrete feedback as to PQ improvements but $250 for the perceived tweak is no big deal. I would guess many may lean the same way to take certain viewing experiences to the next level pending confirmation that $2K or higher for the real deal VP will = ROI PQ. :D
post #73 of 214
Thread Starter 
Q of BanditZ: my simple answer, that perhaps Razorvision does something your VP doesn't do, in response to you question "if you're going for the kill with a video processor anyways, would you even bother with something like these RazorVisions?" seems to have provoked you into post #69 above.

You certainly have a lot of energy directed against the Razorvision; even though you haven't seen the product in operation? :confused: Also, your logic of saying "plenty of people know about these chips" therefore they are "Pretty redundant, it would seem" is lost on me too ... because people know about other processors from Digivision the DV1000 is superfluous? :confused:

As covered in post #33 in the thread above, words you describe as "Some technobabble, marketing jargon" to me are descriptions of mathematical image filters: 'locally adaptive enhancement' meaning 'unsharpen mask' filter; and 'large convolution kernel' meaning 'gaussian smoothing' filter. In this forum it has not been established if Razorvisions use Pixon LLC's 'digital image reconstruction' filter, which would be quite impressive; it certainly looks interesting from the white papers I linked.

You post like a VP expert, can you please help me understand which good VPs on the market have these mathematical filters built in?

I am impressed that you have such strong opinions about a product you've never seen operate, what conviction! My view is that I can't critique on pros/cons until I see one working, but in the meantime the technology behind it looks well established in other arenas (e.g. industrial and military) and could server an interesting purpose in AV. Therefore I am interested to read what other who have actually seen it working have to say, as I am not in a position to comment if it's good or bad.

StooMonster
post #74 of 214
Has anyone used the Razorvision with a plasma ? If so I would appreciate hearing your findings. :)
post #75 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink
You never do...
What is it about pigs and muck? Talk about being aptly self-named! Go away!






Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969
I would guess that if it can provide a perceived PQ improvement for $250 that's a bargain for a simple plug and play device a novice could easily use versus committing thousands. A sort of VP tweak on the Cheap.
Exactly. And that's certianly great if that's how it shakes out. I'm all for it!


Quote:
I would guess many buyers may be folks that don't have a VP. I'm fairly new to the VP section and to be honest I have no idea of what type of improvement to expect from a VP besides reading Press Releases posted by the Vendors. Hard to commit to several thousand more when you have no idea of the results one will see and so some folks may be more willing to use this gadget and seeing it as no great loss. For current owners of quality VP's the story may be very different as your already dealing with a refined PQ.
That's exactly what my point was and the onus behind my question. Nothing more.

Quote:
I'm waiting to see more feedback on it before committing on it but $250 today isn't much of a risk for anyone considering a VP anyways. I don't expect anyone would expect it to replace a VP30 or other quality VP but as the one poster stated it has it's benefits for certain events like Sports. I have strong interest in seeing VP30 feedback with someone that owns a 45" Sharp LCD to decide if the $2K is really worth it - I'm not about to blow $2K without concrete feedback as to PQ improvements but $250 for the perceived tweak is no big deal. I would guess many may lean the same way to take certain viewing experiences to the next level pending confirmation that $2K or higher for the real deal VP will = ROI PQ. :D
Wow, it's like you and I are in the same boat exactly, except with different display, obviously. ;) I couldn't agree with you more. :)


As usual, I knew I could count on you for a straight and meaningful answer. Based on everything we have available to us so far, this is exactly the impression I have thus far.

And that's good, especially at this price! I'm hoping these cables pass with flying colors and ace out. That would be great!



Hopefully Byte, Joerod, and some others will get back to us soon with more concrete data.

Maybe they can tell me authoritatively, without guessing and snide innuendo, what abilities, if any, these cables have that a good videoprocessor doesn't/wouldn't have, as was suggested to me earlier in the thread.
post #76 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
You post like a VP expert, can you please help me understand which good VPs on the market have these mathematical filters built in?
There are NO good VPs which try to do what RazorVision is doing and why would they want to?

IMHO, what the RazorVision processing produces, is an abstract asethetic which most people investing in good VP try to avoid.

RazorVision can not be compared to a processor like the Mosquito.

A more advanced version of the RazorVision might be a better product, if it offered greater user controls, to avoid some of the artifacts while applying the benefits.

EDIT-PS: Let me just clarify a point, which may have already been understood by some. The RazorVision is a SFX processor. It takes the image and applies a treatment which offers the allusion of enhanced detail and contrast performance.

One oberservation I did not share, but I will offer now. The contrast effect of the RazorVision looks best on a poorly calibrated display. I felt this when I was watching the demo at CC. Looking at the unenhanced OFF image, it was a poor image which needed serious calibration. On this display the RazorVision seemed to work a miracle. On my calibrated Sony LCD projector, the device did not reproduce the same improved feeling. Rather it remapped luminance in a way that defeated the broader luminance spectrum of the well calibrated image. The special EFX quality was something that did translate, but it was not an asethetic I could appreciate. I found I could get most of the positive benefits offered by the RazorVision, simply by switching my GAMMA from off to 2 or 3, and increasing the sharpness on either the OPPO or the projector. The drop shadow effect, while a very interesting effect, simply has too little control for my taste. So as I said above, A RazorVision with more user controls, could be a very interesting and more useful device.

IMHO, the RazorVision may be most appreciated by folks who have not properly calibrated their displays, and the unassisted image is compressed or washed out.
post #77 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
There are NO good VPs which try to do what RazorVision is doing and why would they want to?

IMHO, what the RazorVision processing produces, is an abstract asethetic which most people investing in good VP try to avoid.

RazorVision can not be compared to a processor like the Mosquito.

A more advanced version of the RazorVision might be a better product, if it offered greater user controls, to avoid some of the artifacts while apply the benefits.
Thank you for that clarification and explanation. :)
post #78 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
If one looked at the links from the original post, one would see that ...

Processor in Belkin cable is a Digivision DV1000.

DV1000 supports 1080p.


StooMonster

I just got a response back from Belkin after sending them an email regarding support of 1080.

"No. it does not support 1080p. This resolution in pretty new. They are just barely coming out with TV’s that actually supports this.



Tony Chavez
Customer Support Representative
Belkin Logistics, Inc.
Customer Support Department "

That is too bad!
post #79 of 214
I am out of town (Chicago) but I am still planning to do my last review post of the Razorvision. Simply put, everyone needs to try one of these devices. And yes, my display is properly calibrated. I just notice everything in my picture. I am planning to test it on a plasma, and also a DLP rptv and then finaly on a sony crt rptv(all HDTVs). Then I will compare the device used with the different technologies. So far, I am very impressed with it. It will definitely have a home in my theater for sporting events. Just don't knock it before you try it. This razorvision device will surprise us all...
post #80 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod
I am out of town (Chicago) but I am still planning to do my last review post of the Razorvision. Simply put, everyone needs to try one of these devices. And yes, my display is properly calibrated. I just notice everything in my picture. I am planning to test it on a plasma, and also a DLP rptv and then finaly on a sony crt rptv(all HDTVs). Then I will compare the device used with the different technologies. So far, I am very impressed with it. It will definitely have a home in my theater for sporting events. Just don't knock it before you try it. This razorvision device will surprise us all...

Between you, Byte, several others in this thread, PM's, phone calls, tons of reading, my own very positive experience with Belkin's other products like the PF60 , and a partridge in a pear tree... ;)... I went ahead and threw down today and ordered the smallest HDMI version of this (8 feet!?) and I'll have it before Christmas.

I'll be sure to post my findings as I go along. :)
post #81 of 214
The 8 foot version is the one I have. Cool! You will be happy Q! I am glad Santa will get it to you this Christmas! You must have been good: )
Let us know what you think...
post #82 of 214
I cannot get this to work with the HD+.

Setup is:
Pann TH-65PHD7UY via DVI to
DVDO HD+ via DVI to
Comcast Motorola 6412

I put the Belkin between the TV and the HD+ using DVI/HDMI cables. Nothing. The blue lights flash for a while and the the unit turns itself off. The manual says that this is because it cannot detect a source. However, when I connect the Belkin direct to the 6412 it works. But even then it only works with the 'pure' digital HD channels, none of the digital simulcast SD channels come through.

The 6412 is set to output 1080i for HD and 480i for SD. The HD+ is set to output 1366 x 768 @ 60hz unlocked.

I can say that my standard setup gave a much better picture than when the Belkin replaced the HD+. Which is good news, because I would have been a tad disgruntled if I couldn't see any difference. But then I was looking for an additive effect, not something to replace the HD+.

I have my VP30 but I wasn't planning to install it until after Christmas. I'll try it again then, I don't know why it would work, but who knows. If it doesn't then I guess that it is going back.
post #83 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
There are NO good VPs which try to do what RazorVision is doing and why would they want to?
You have clearly missed my point. It was suggested that "good VPs" do what Razorvision does, I was simply saying "which ones?"

"RazorVision can not be compared to a processor like the Mosquito." Why not?

Especially considering that on the Mosquito homepage it gives ones of it's two key functions as Gaussian blur (see picture 1), which is the same primary filter that the Razorvision applies. :confused:

They both apply treatments to digital picture. Conceptually, what is the difference? (Obviously accepting price, signal inputs / outputs, controls, one is for analogue signals and the other for digital signal, looks, etc.).

Q of BanditZ: glad you are buying one, look forward to reading about your experiences with it.

Abbas: shame Razorvision doesn't support 1080p when the DV1000 inside it does, perhaps Belkin will refine their implementation.

StooMonster
post #84 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
The 6412 is set to output 1080i for HD and 480i for SD. The HD+ is set to output 1366 x 768 @ 60hz unlocked.
Don't think the Belkin can process the 1366x768 your HD+ is outputting, it supports 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i; you could try it between the 6412 and the HD+

StooMonster
post #85 of 214
As the Mosquito is priced at ten times the Razorvision it's pretty obvious why anyone would be willing to give it a shot as they sure appear to be doing similar tweaks.

For Bytehoven, not intending to get into a disagreement but how many TV's and types have you tested this device on?

Sure would be interesting for an ISF Calibrator to test this thing out not to contradict you but to determine if we're comparing apples to apples from one type panel to another, i.e.; LCD, Plasma, RPTV DLP, SXRD et al.

Don't get me wrong here I don't think any of us are stating this is a device that may match up with a high end VP but could be a worthwhile tweak for a rather nominal expense compared to some of these VP's that can come close to the purchase price of our TV's. I'm not going to try and contest your assertions but a tweak of what is already a great display we may be viewing already without a VP may be worthwhile. I'm totally happy with my Sharp and yes if this toy cannot improve SD then by all means I'll shop for VP but it's at the price of a low end upconverting DVD player so it's no big deal or loss.

Like I said we need a Calibrator to test this toy out "Objectively" on multiple panels and report back. OK ChadB perhaps we could loan you one. I agree with Q Banditz about Belkin as i also use the Line Conditioner (I think it's the PF60) and the thing works like a charm and have a hard time believing they are into junk science. Just a few thoughts. :)
post #86 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969
As the Mosquito is priced at ten times the Razorvision it's pretty obvious why anyone would be willing to give it a shot as they sure appear to be doing similar tweaks.

For Bytehoven, not intending to get into a disagreement but how many TV's and types have you tested this device on?

Sure would be interesting for an ISF Calibrator to test this thing out not to contradict you but to determine if we're comparing apples to apples from one type panel to another, i.e.; LCD, Plasma, RPTV DLP, SXRD et al.

Don't get me wrong here I don't think any of us are stating this is a device that may match up with a high end VP but could be a worthwhile tweak for a rather nominal expense compared to some of these VP's that can come close to the purchase price of our TV's. I'm not going to try and contest your assertions but a tweak of what is already a great display we may be viewing already without a VP may be worthwhile. I'm totally happy with my Sharp and yes if this toy cannot improve SD then by all means I'll shop for VP but it's at the price of a low end upconverting DVD player so it's no big deal or loss.
That's basically why I figured: What the heck? ;)

Why don't you, Stoo, and some of the others here join us in this little experiment? Can't hurt none. :)


Quote:
Like I said we need a Calibrator to test this toy out "Objectively" on multiple panels and report back. OK ChadB perhaps we could loan you one. Just a few thoughts. :)
Ah yes, Chad. He did an amazing ISF job for me a few months back. Great guy!

I do need to tip him off about this. Actually, he doesn't live too terribly far from me. Your idea is not nearly as far fetched as you might think. ;)

I know he's been super busy lately (good!), but if he and I can touch base, I'll be happy to lend him my cable and let him go to town with it. :)


Quote:
I agree with Q Banditz about Belkin as i also use the Line Conditioner (I think it's the PF60) and the thing works like a charm and have a hard time believing they are into junk science. Just a few thoughts.
I was very skeptical myself, but WSR did a great review on the PF30 and 60 a while back that finally nudged me off the fence. I also happened to get my PF60 for a LOT less than the MSRP, which also helped. ;)

The MSRP for the PF60 is quite a bargain considering what this thing is and what it does.

P.S. If you want to know how good Chad B. and how I feel about him and his work. Here ya go! :D http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561596
post #87 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
Don't think the Belkin can process the 1366x768 your HD+ is outputting, it supports 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i; you could try it between the 6412 and the HD+

StooMonster
Duh! I forgot rule 37, "Always read the specs all the way through before purchase".
I'll try it before the HD+, but if it does work OK it will only cover one input. That will still be worth it if it can do anything with the horrible SD picture.
post #88 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
"RazorVision can not be compared to a processor like the Mosquito." Why not?
Why, seems obvious to me, but I'll give it whack.

I suppose in the context of any device which manipulates the source image, the RazorVision can be compared with the Mosquito or any other VP.

However, in the context of those VP devices which leave a minimal post-processing artifact footprint, I don't see a comparison. If the RazorVision processing offered greater control, it could become a more powerful video processing tool.

I agree everyone should give the device a try.
post #89 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
Don't think the Belkin can process the 1366x768 your HD+ is outputting, it supports 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i; you could try it between the 6412 and the HD+

StooMonster
Just tried it in front of the HD+ and the result was.....................yuk!!! Much worse than a straight through signal with no processing at all.

Going back tomorrow.
post #90 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
Just tried it in front of the HD+ and the result was.....................yuk!!! Much worse than a straight through signal with no processing at all.

Going back tomorrow.
If you can, can you please elaborate and provide a little more detail on this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven
Why, seems obvious to me, but I'll give it whack.

The Mosquito works to eliminate artifacts which contribute to image noise. The Mosquito does not offer a wild special EFX shading which adds a new dimension to the interaction of high/low contrast areas.

I suppose in the context of any device which manipulates the source image, the RazorVision can be compared with the Mosquito or any other VP.

However, in the context of those devices which leave a minimal post-processing footprint, there is no comparison.

The RazorVision leaves an obvious footprint via it's high/low contrast shading. I also feel it expands apparent sharpness/resolution thru the inclusion of noise expansion. So while the devices does produce an effected image, it's not an effect I am searching to achieve.

If the RazorVision processing offered greater control, it might be a much more powerful video processing tool.

I have said everyone should give the device a try. CC has a great return program so there is no risk. Some folks are gonna love the processor. Maybe I will end up being the only person to return the device.
I tend to be very picky along these same lines, so you've kind of put me on alert with this description, but as you say: This is an easy, low cost, low risk thing that we can all demo for ourselves and see how we feel about it.
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