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Lumagen deinterlaces 1080i - finally - Page 3  

post #61 of 239
Yes, we will be finishing off the 10 bit pipeline as well---not nearly as much work as the 1080i inverse telecine has been so it shouldn't be much of a wait after we finish off this next update.
post #62 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
Yes, we will be finishing off the 10 bit pipeline as well---not nearly as much work as the 1080i inverse telecine has been so it shouldn't be much of a wait after we finish off this next update.
Awesome! This will make SD content look even better through the Lumagens. Can't wait to see it.
post #63 of 239
Patrick,

Regarding the 10bit pipeline.... is that just 10 bit internally with 8 bit in/out or will input and/or output be able to be 10 bit as well?

Thanks,

Shawn
post #64 of 239
[quote=sfogg]Regarding the 10bit pipeline.... is that just 10 bit internally with 8 bit in/out or will input and/or output be able to be 10 bit as well?/QUOTE]I know that Lumagen interfaces are more effective than most other manufacturers, but aren't the DVI I/Os limited to 8 bits anyway?

Somehow I doubt if that is necessarily the case......

Nick
post #65 of 239
so if one is running a crt projector for 1080I hd there is any reason at all to outupt 1080i at 720p? I have always output 1080i hd at 1080i
post #66 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudx
so if one is running a crt projector for 1080I hd there is any reason at all to outupt 1080i at 720p? I have always output 1080i hd at 1080i
Scanlines are 33% wider at 1080i than they are at 720p.

And the interlacing is sometimes noticeable.

720p is closer to the sweetspot of most CRTs, especially 8". On a 9", I can see scanlines at 1024. The lines are sweetly resolved at 1080p. And they don't start to touch/overlap until 1200. You want the lines to touch without overlapping (or the image gets soft).

Scaling 1080i to 720p could fill the gap with image-based light instead of black scanlines.
post #67 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
Scanlines are 33% wider at 1080i than they are at 720p.

And the interlacing is sometimes noticeable.

720p is closer to the sweetspot of most CRTs, especially 8". On a 9", I can see scanlines at 1024. The lines are sweetly resolved at 1080p. And they don't start to touch/overlap until 1200. You want the lines to touch without overlapping (or the image gets soft).

Scaling 1080i to 720p could fill the gap with image-based light instead of black scanlines.
but wouldn't 1080i to 720p be loosing some resolution even if 1080i is interlaced?

I have always prefered 1080i HD to 720P hd even on my 8" crt.
post #68 of 239
Quote:
Regarding the 10bit pipeline.... is that just 10 bit internally with 8 bit in/out or will input and/or output be able to be 10 bit as well?
Most of the inputs are 8 bit per color channel but there are some HDMI devices which can feed 10 bit digital video. The analog DAC for output is 10 bits. If you use a DVI output then the output is rounded to 8 bits. But even if your input is 8 and the output is 8, having 10 bits all the way between avoids rounding errors that might be visible on the display.
post #69 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudx
but wouldn't 1080i to 720p be loosing some resolution even if 1080i is interlaced?

I have always prefered 1080i HD to 720P hd even on my 8" crt.
Lots of other threads on 720p vs 1080i. But that's where it starts to depend on the content of the images... if you've got low motion and high detail, then yes, 1080i will be great. But if you've got high motion, like sports, then 720p might be better. That's the advantage of using a video processor and having multiple setups on a non-fixed-pixel multi-sync display device like CRT... choose the setup that looks best for what you're watching... factor in the content, the native source resolution, the quality of your setup, and your viewing preferences.
post #70 of 239
For those of you waiting for this next update we were expecting to have it this week but a few last minute changes have pushed it back a few days. Its looking pretty solid though so it should be available early next week.
post #71 of 239
Thank you, Patrick. Have a great weekend!
post #72 of 239
Patrick,

There was originally talk of 10bit input on DVI by fooling HDMI devices into sending 10bit. Is this still planned? (You comments a few post above aren't too clear)
post #73 of 239
Patrick:

Does the processing automatically switch between inverse telecine and per-pixel motion adaptive, so bad edits would be less noticeable and also one could leave the processor set one way for all sources?

Since there are now three de-interlacing modes -- no-comb, per-pixel, and inverse telecine, will users be asking for different kinds of "auto" mode to use different permutations.
post #74 of 239
Krobar- we cancurrently take 10 bit in on DVI but you have to set the HDMI device to output such a format. We don't know of a way to trick an HDMI device into doing this automatically when connected to a DVI input.

Allan- Yes it switches automatically between per-pixel and inverse-telecine. We didn't add the other combinations to create multiple auto modes.
post #75 of 239
Patrick,

"we cancurrently take 10 bit in on DVI but you have to set the HDMI device to output such a format. We don't know of a way to trick an HDMI device into doing this automatically when connected to a DVI input."

Sort of related... for a HDMI device which allows setting the colorspace of its output what is your recommendation for that? It can be set to RGB, YCbCr(4:4:4) or YCbCr(4:2:2).

Thanks,

Shawn
post #76 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg
Sort of related... for a HDMI device which allows setting the colorspace of its output what is your recommendation for that? It can be set to RGB, YCbCr(4:4:4) or YCbCr(4:2:2).
I imagine the answer to that would be YCbCr 4:2:2 because it minimises the amount of processing performed by the player.

I must say I like the idea of 10 bit inputs over DVI. I thought that capability would be limited to the new big-bucks processors with HDMI inputs, but Lumagen surprise again.

Nick
post #77 of 239
I'd agree with Nick, 4:2:2 should be the best for a DVD player since its the least amount of work.
post #78 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Siener
I heard that the chip(s) you have to work with were somewhat over-spec'd by the suppliers. Plus, running within tight timing constraints on an FPGA is tricky.
A better way to put it is that FPGAs are optimistically speced: they won't do many useful things running right at the top of their speed grade, since they achieve the highest speed for only for simple logic. One way around this is to deeply pipeline your logic so each pipeline stage is simple (hence fast), but the overall pipeline still does the thing you need it to do (which is why it's deep: lots of simple logic stages chained together to do something more complicated).

The timing constraints in FPGAs can be very tricky to deal with. I don't know how good the tools that Lumagen is using are, but the ones I've seen can best be described as stochastic in nature: the layout of the chip on the same HDL code and constraints will change from compilation to compilation. Couple this with the fact that not all I/O pins and logic blocks on the chip are really equal in capability (though the specs will claim they are), and you get lots of fun chasing your tail. For example, some logic blocks are closer to the ground pins, so if you have logic that draws high currents (lots of transitions all the time), they can appear stable when routed to be near those ground pins, and unstable if they're routed away from those pins. Hiding hardware behind a procedural language is an interesting and useful idea, but you still have to know what you're doing and what's going on behind the HDL code.

--Andre
post #79 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
I'd agree with Nick, 4:2:2 should be the best for a DVD player since its the least amount of work.
Yes. It wasn't explicitly mentioned here, but 4:2:2 YCbCr is the only mode that supports (up to) 12 bit video. All the 4:4:4 modes are strictly 8 bits per channel.

-Dylan
post #80 of 239
We've posted a pre-production update which adds 1080i inverse telecine for the HDP and ProHDP models. This first release works for 1080i-60hz sources when running the Lumagen output rate at 48,60 and 72hz (actual vals are 47.95, 59.94 and 71.93hz) and 1080i-50hz sources running 50 or 75 hz output refresh rates. The 1080-24SF output is not working yet for inverse telecine and running the Lumagen output rate at 72 or 75 hz there is display degradation when running output resolutions beyond 900p. We'll be working to get these last couple of issues corrected soon. Pressing "menu 0918" enables a F(ilm)/V(ideo) status display---a single character in the lower right hand part of the screen will show you whether its in film or video mode. You need to have the deint mode for HD ( in the menu under IN->CONFIG->CNTRL->DEINT ) set to "auto" to allow inverse telecine to turn on when film is detected. If you find issues please let us know at support@lumagen.com and you can always go back to a previous update if its a show-stopper for your particular setup--don't think that'll be the case but you can do it if it should occur.
post #81 of 239
Wow, cant wait to try it!
post #82 of 239
Break out the bubbly!
post #83 of 239
WOW. I bet the 48 Hz and 72 Hz film modes look outstanding. I may actually have to buy one of these now!
-D
post #84 of 239
Hi Patrick

Nice job.

Question, the trouble I am seeing with all these scalers running at 48hz is the need for a recovery system/software.

I spent about 1 hour feeding the Ruby 47.95. deint mode set to auto. The little indicator was reading F.

I tried DVD, batman begins, DTheater scorpion king and some 1080i content recorded off satellite.
Regardless the source it did not take long before everything hit a bad flag and you had to pause the video and restart it to get it to smooth out again. This will happen several times per movie. Is there a way around this so it resets itself. Basically 48hz cannot be used without such a feature. Im back to 60hz for the time being.

Thanks Patrick.
post #85 of 239
Hi Alan, we're working on improving the recovery. Did you see the F change to V when the problem occurred?
post #86 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
Hi Alan, we're working on improving the recovery. Did you see the F change to V when the problem occurred?
No it stayed on F.

I just tried a video based DTheater demo tape and it went to v as it should. Now im back to a movie again and it will not go back to f.
I tried everything including a few different movies. Stuck on v.

Also, if using 59.94 will the film and video detection still work showing the F & V.

Thanks!!
post #87 of 239
Yes, regardless of the output rate the F/V detection and display will update. You might want to check your HD deinterlace setting and make sure its on AUTO and not VIDPP or VIDNC since those modes force it to stay in video.
post #88 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick harkin
You might want to check your HD deinterlace setting and make sure its on AUTO and not VIDPP or VIDNC since those modes force it to stay in video.
Thanks Patrick. This has shaped up into one great processor. It just keeps getting better:)
post #89 of 239
Hey Patrick, great work on the update.

Can you tell me what it means when I see "G" as status? It seems to turn to and stay on that after briefly showing "F" when I'm viewing film based sources.
post #90 of 239
Patrick,

A suggestion on the 0918 F/V indicator. Any way to have it show a little more? Like what V or F mode it is actually in?

Also, I have seen numerous occasions so far where obvious film material will flash back and forth (sometimes quite rapidly) between F and V, unrelated to any scene changes. So far this is seen mostly on OTA channels, 1080i in 1080p out.

--Bill
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