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It's official. I see a rainbow-like effect on every plasma. - Page 6

post #151 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalandis View Post


So am I out of luck with plasma (and DLP too I assume)?

I'm surprised I'm not more sensitive to CRT? Isn't that the same deal?

If so what are the votes on the best LCD? I was not happy with 40" Sony Bravia at all.

While I have no problems with plasma or LCD, DLPs are completely unwatchable. I would think that if you have problems with plasmas, DLP would also be out of consideration.

CRTs sound problematic based upon the post of CRT induced nausea. LCDs certainly have their negative effects on many.

I hope you're able to watch the screen in a theater. That may be your only recourse as far was movies go. If you can tolerate your computer monitor, there is streaming video from more and more sources all the time. That may be the way for you to go.
post #152 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalandis View Post

Probably the best example of the worst case scenario (and the effect that causes the most concern that I have to retreat from plasma) is this sort of intense color flashing. For instance, if I change the ration to 4:3 and it puts up those gray bars... those gray bars are not flat gray color to me... they sort of radiate pulses of colors as my eyes move over the image. (Same thing happens over the whole screen if I watch black and white movie like Casablanca). It becomes less noticable when watching something like Robots... I could live with that... but when it does hit me, it sort of hurts... and when watching SD or HD it is much worse. Now that I know that this happens, when I am in Best Buy and walking down the plasma row... if I turn my head fairly fast I see a BRIGHT GREEN spear jab at my eyes from all the plasmas. (Also, if I wave my hand in front of the screen my eyes see lots of rainbow colors between my fingers - not that I watch TV that way... but I've seen others that complain about this issue to describe the same trick.)

Our peripheral vision is more sensitive to motion (changes in brightness) and indeed, plasma pixel brightness is controlled through pulses on the order of milliseconds. These and other factors must be conspiring with your vision system to produce the phenomena you are perceiving.
Quote:
Perhaps I am a cylon?

Now... your comment about 72 Hz Pioneer Elites... I think I saw one of those units at a local HomeMedia (but don't know if it was running at 72 Hz)... are you suggesting that the 72 Hz is a pulse rate (sorry if my terms are idiotic) that is similar to CRT? Would that be the standard setting for that unit?

72 Hz would be the refresh rate--the rate at which entire frames are displayed on the screen. The pulse rate that controls pixel brightness is somewhere in the millisecond (thousandths of a second) range.
Quote:
I've been wondering in this process if somehow my CRT watching all day (graphic designer on a LACIE CRT) has trained my eye to a certain pulse... and the plasma uses a different one... and my eyes keep snatching at the pulses? Is this even possible? The reason I wonder that is it felt (but perhaps phantom feelings) that when I return to work after massive testing sessions on the plasma, that I see YELLOW screaking on my CRT... something that has NEVER bothered me in 15 years of working on a CRT. CRTs have never been a strain for me... computer LCDs never seemed as good to me as my CRT. (laptop LCDs actually seem to hurt my eyes)

What do you think 1920x1080? Does this provide any clues? Again... can't be the TV because my wife stands next to me saying that she cannot see them.

That's a very interesting observation. I know that our vision systems do adapt to varying degrees as individuals. Ever been on a cross-country trip cruising comfortably at 90 for hours? When you slowed down to something more sedate, like 60, didn't it seem like you were crawling? Things really do seem to happen more slowly for racing drivers at 190 than for those of us that do not spend a great deal of time at those speeds. Heck, after a couple of hours of Gran Turismo, real driving at everyday speeds seems really slow to me. I've also found over the years that I've become sensitive to CRT refresh rates. Anything below about 75 Hz is bothersome to me...initially. When I'm overseas, 50 Hz PAL is distracting at first, but I become "acclimated" after a few days. Hmmm...now that I think about it, the flicker does remain noticable in my peripheral vision, especially when my eyes are scanning something, as when reading...

CRT's designed for graphics designers are known for high refresh rates, on the order of 100-120 Hz. Just out of curiosity, what is your LaCie set to?
post #153 of 883
While I'm not discounting this phenomenon due to technological side effects in any way, some of what I'm reading here reminds me of an optical illusion demonstrated at the Exploratorium in S.F. At this one exhibit, they have this rotating circular plate spinning around at roughly 10 cycles/sec. On the plate, you can clearly see multiple colors (yellows, reds, blues, greens, etc) as it spins around. Once the plate stops spinning, you are surprised to find that there are no colors at all on plate - just varying blocks of black and white.
post #154 of 883
I'll tell you a story.

Had neighbors that raised turkeys. The kids, named one of them Cisco. Played with him. He became their pet. They could pick him out...etc. He was fond of them. Then...Thanksgiving came. The Kids just cried and cried. So..they traded Cisco...for chickens. EVerybody ate and was happy. Do you understand?

It's mind over matter. If you don't mind..it don't matter. But, you have to be far enough away from it for that to work.
post #155 of 883
Dalandis. The main problem I have is trails. Would you say the Samsung had the least amount of trails compared to the other plasmas? Would you say less then the Pannasonic 60u which I was considering.
post #156 of 883
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Who knows--maybe you have an inherrited gene that causes you to see rainbows on everything but a Sharp Flat Panel LCD!

IF you do then this will get my vote for the greatest Company or technology Plant post of all time!

Seriously though--if you don't like Flat Panel LCD either--what will you do--quit watching TV or buy a Rear Projection CRT?!


Honestly, why do you continue to troll this thread? Go. Away. Already.

Anyway, what daladis is describing is precisely why I started this thread several months back, and the fact that it hasn't died is proof-positive that yellow flashing pulses DO EXIST on plasma. They are actually WORSE than DLP, they are painful and if viewed for extensive periods of time feel like they're doing actual damage to one's eyes. I AM NOT kidding here. Go ahead and peddle your conspiracy theories all you want. The HP (i.e. Panasonic) that I bought from TVA months back (ask Aaron, he sold it to me) was an AWESOME display. I WISH I could've kept it, but I could not tolerate the pulsing yellow flashes. I have given up on plasma at this point. My only recourse is LCD or Direct-View CRT. And that sucks.
post #157 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalandis View Post


Looking like a dead dream for me... unless they can get those LCDs in shape with better refresh and clarity.

But I guess I'll be met with more jokes.

Just count yourself lucky that you don't see what I see.

dalandis

Have you sampled an SXRD? It's refresh rate is at the levels of plasma and totally different than DLP and I've never seen anyone post rainbow or similar on it but now that I've said this Auditor55 may state otherwise .

Realize you may not care for RPTV but when your vision is defiant towards FP PDP, might as well try one of the best RPTV with fast response times or wait on the Sharps coming out in the fall with quicker Response and other improvements. Or you could be a guinea pig for the new Samsung LED DLP which is 40 times faster at processing than other DLP's and is not supposed to have visible rainbows and is true 1080P should be debuting sometime around mid - late June.

Good Luck with the Curse. Some folks must have hypersensitive vision I guess when I first saw these posts I thought they were a joke - but appears it's a real issue with some.
post #158 of 883
Gripe gripe gripe. One time I was fussing about rainbow effects on the ol' plasma until my wife points out that I was viewing a travelogue on Hawaii.
post #159 of 883
I second the recommendation of checking out the Sony SXRD (or other Lcos-based displays) for those experiencing this problem on plasma. The SXRDs are tremendous, and in my view do some things even better than plasma. As well, they have some of the better viewing angles for an RPTV.
I dont' think I've heard of any complaints from SXRD owners, of the types of anomalies reported here, or about DLPs.
post #160 of 883
Okay... check this out. I wonder if the Hertz is a culprit for me. I checked the Hertz on my computer monitor (which I stare at all day) and it is set to 85 Hertz. Looks like from the Panny specs that the plasma is 60 Hertz. (Sound right? Are all plamas 60 Hertz?)

I can change the Hertz on my computer monitor so I dialed it to 60. The change is extremely drastic to my eyes... I don't so much see color pulses... but the whole monitor is pulsing at me wildly in a very intense feeling. No WAY I could look at it for more than a minute or so. Brighter aresa worse of course.

Dialed the computer monitor to 75 Hertz and if looked SO MUCH better to me.

Then put it on 85 Hertz as always... looked similar to the 75.

I've been a graphic designer since I started using a computer... what do people typically have a computer monitor CRT set to? Could this be the reason I'm having so much trouble?

Need to find a plasma where you can change the Hertz... Panasonic? Will do some more research and keep everyone posted.

dalandis
post #161 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Dalandis. The main problem I have is trails. Would you say the Samsung had the least amount of trails compared to the other plasmas? Would you say less then the Pannasonic 60u which I was considering.

Conan... it is so hard for me to see in the store setting. But it did seem that the unit had less of the green trails on fast movement. Could have been my imagination though. The white letters seemed more pure to me (on dark backgrounds). Worth looking into. But they did not have a 42" in the store... and I was looking at a 50." So I did not stare too much.
post #162 of 883
I also recall seeing an SXRD Sony unit when going to HomeMedia yesterday. The picture looked really good and I could see no strange rainbows or pulses on that screen. But because of my room (and a cabinet unit where the TV needs to be placed) I'm really only considering something about 43" or below... and really needs to be shallow. Do they make a smaller unit? I think the one I saw was a monster 60"

But if nothing else works, I guess I'd have to reinvent the whole room (but lots of built in cabinets make that hard).

Hope I can figure out this plasma mystery though... the plasma looks so great when it behaves for my eyes.
post #163 of 883
Hmmm... this Hertz issue is going to be a hard thing to test. Looks like the only Plasma that gets up to at least 72 Hertz is a Pioneer with that PureCinema 3:3 pull down technology. Certainly not showing up in any showrooms in Richmond Virginia. My local HomeMedia does not have a 3:3 model on display. But wow... the PDP-4360 HD as seen on cnet.com sure looks like a beauty. Anyone here have one? East coast person?
post #164 of 883
Okay... now I'm getting somewhere... there is a showroom about 8 miles from my office that has a big version of the Pioneer with this 3:3 pulldown. I plan to visit there tomorrow with a stack of my DVDs to test out the effect to see if I can eliminate this pulse attack on my eyes. I will definitely post my results for you. (Wish me luck.) The guy on the phone was very curious to have me come in and see what I think. And not a single joke from him about me being on drugs... what a relief.

dalandis
post #165 of 883
The PDP 4360 has trails real bad. One of the worst offenders, but also probobly the best picture
post #166 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

The PDP 4360 has trails real bad. One of the worst offenders, but also probobly the best picture

yuck conan... that would be bad news... but I guess I could live with trails if I had to. I'm pretty excited to visit this showroom place tomorrow as I never knew it existed. (Tucked away in an industrial park). The owner was really curious to have me visit and see what he considers to be the best and most tweaked out systems available. (All technologies).
post #167 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalandis View Post

Okay... check this out. I wonder if the Hertz is a culprit for me. I checked the Hertz on my computer monitor (which I stare at all day) and it is set to 85 Hertz. Looks like from the Panny specs that the plasma is 60 Hertz. (Sound right? Are all plamas 60 Hertz?)

I can change the Hertz on my computer monitor so I dialed it to 60. The change is extremely drastic to my eyes... I don't so much see color pulses... but the whole monitor is pulsing at me wildly in a very intense feeling. No WAY I could look at it for more than a minute or so. Brighter aresa worse of course.

Dialed the computer monitor to 75 Hertz and if looked SO MUCH better to me.

Then put it on 85 Hertz as always... looked similar to the 75.

I've been a graphic designer since I started using a computer... what do people typically have a computer monitor CRT set to? Could this be the reason I'm having so much trouble?

Need to find a plasma where you can change the Hertz... Panasonic? Will do some more research and keep everyone posted.

dalandis

Plasma's and CRT's are way different when it comes to refresh rates due to the fact they use vastly different technologies to paint the image. Most LCD's are 60Hz and there is no "flicker", however, a CRT at 60hz will have flicker visible to most people. 75hz is usually adequate for a PC monitor; go much above that and you oversaturate the phosphers and they tend to bleed into one another making the picture blurrier. So, the lower the Hz on a CRT the crisper the image and less vibrant, the higher the blurrier and more vibrant colors.
post #168 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalandis View Post

Okay... check this out. I wonder if the Hertz is a culprit for me. I checked the Hertz on my computer monitor (which I stare at all day) and it is set to 85 Hertz. Looks like from the Panny specs that the plasma is 60 Hertz. (Sound right? Are all plamas 60 Hertz?)

Plasmas can generally sync to a variety of frequencies--multiple combinations of resolution and refresh rates; 60Hz was the high water mark until the Pio Elite you mention above came out.
Quote:


I've been a graphic designer since I started using a computer... what do people typically have a computer monitor CRT set to? Could this be the reason I'm having so much trouble?...

I set the refresh to the highest rate the video card/CRT combination will support. With LCD's, however, I set it to 60 Hz. Setting it any higher without proper pullup support can work against you if you are displaying anything with motion (results in slower response times [judder]).
post #169 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimdeath View Post

Plasma's and CRT's are way different when it comes to refresh rates due to the fact they use vastly different technologies to paint the image. Most LCD's are 60Hz and there is no "flicker", however, a CRT at 60hz will have flicker visible to most people. 75hz is usually adequate for a PC monitor; go much above that and you oversaturate the phosphers and they tend to bleed into one another making the picture blurrier. So, the lower the Hz on a CRT the crisper the image and less vibrant, the higher the blurrier and more vibrant colors.

LCD's (and plasmas) display the entire frame all at once, while CRT's can only energize a single pixel at any given moment; so with CRT's a balance must be struck between phosphor response time and refresh rate--the longer it takes to light up a pixel, the lower the refresh rate that can be sustained without smearing. High quality, purpose-built, video graphics design and presentation monitors are equipped with high performance phosphors designed to work at very high refresh rates (100, 120 even 150 Hz, I believe), hence they provide very good transient response times and frames per second rates without smearing or judder (make great fps gaming displays, but they can be exxy).
post #170 of 883
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalandis View Post

yuck conan... that would be bad news... but I guess I could live with trails if I had to. I'm pretty excited to visit this showroom place tomorrow as I never knew it existed. (Tucked away in an industrial park). The owner was really curious to have me visit and see what he considers to be the best and most tweaked out systems available. (All technologies).

Dalandis,

Not to rain on your parade, but I too have looked at the Pio 4360 and saw the same pulsing flashes. I can gaurantee that you'll notice them the minute you walk up to the display. You do seem like you're on to something with the refresh rates, but I fear you and I - and others still - are SOL when it comes to plasma. One can only hope we don't have these problems with SED (if they ever arrive).
post #171 of 883
Sometimes you can see an individual blade of a fan for s split second--so what?

The only way there will be no effects period is if the picture is Painted with paint!

Process that refresh rate!
post #172 of 883
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Sometimes you can see an individual blade of a fan for s split second--so what?

The only way there will be no effects period is if the picture is Painted with paint!

Process that refresh rate!

You're such a tool.
post #173 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Sometimes you can see an individual blade of a fan for s split second--so what?

The only way there will be no effects period is if the picture is Painted with paint!

Process that refresh rate!

That...or DNi..
post #174 of 883
That hurts me...they used to say that to John Holmes, too.

Let me ask you this Yoda1--what technologies or displays do you recommend for the rainbow and trail beleagured and challenged?

If the pain of seein them is so injurious do you think there should be congressional hearings? Do you think there will be lawsuits?

If you show any of the offending technologies to a jury of 12 people will they see them too and sympathize?

What do you think is worse for the eyes--these displays or neon lights? Do you think the people who have NEON lights and ALSO see such effects have the potential to be brainwashed for nefarious purposes?

Do you think it would be cruel to let a dog or a cat watch such a display?

If they like watching them is it because they haven't different eyes than us or is it because they are more intelligent and don't see such nonsense?
post #175 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

That hurts me...they used to say that to John Holmes, too.

Let me ask you this Yoda1--what technologies or displays do you recommend for the rainbow and trail beleagured and challenged?

If the pain of seein them is so injurious do you think there should be congressional hearings? Do you think there will be lawsuits?

If you show any of the offending technologies to a jury of 12 people will they see them too and sympathize?

What do you think is worse for the eyes--these displays or neon lights? Do you think the people who have NEON lights and ALSO see such effects have the potential to be brainwashed for nefarious purposes?

Do you think it would be cruel to let a dog or a cat watch such a display?

If they like watching them is it because they haven't different eyes than us or is it because they are more intelligent and don't see such nonsense?


I asked you before, but for some reason it seems to have dissappeared, but farting on this thread and acting as if people who see this are crazy really is not productive to anyone.

I explained why this exists, that yes some people can see this and some may be bothered by it. This thread was started by someone who can see it, if you don't see it, again I say: great! It's really not productive to keep egging people on because you think it's some crazy fantasy rainbow or that we're all on drugs.

Some people see this, I explained why, that should be enough for you to understand it, and be happy that you are not one who is bothered by this. Some people see rainbows on 3-chip DLPs too, and that can also be explained. Even though I don't see rainbows on 3-chippers, I don't feel the need to go around thread-farting because someone else does.
post #176 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda1 View Post

Dalandis,

Not to rain on your parade, but I too have looked at the Pio 4360 and saw the same pulsing flashes. I can gaurantee that you'll notice them the minute you walk up to the display. You do seem like you're on to something with the refresh rates, but I fear you and I - and others still - are SOL when it comes to plasma. One can only hope we don't have these problems with SED (if they ever arrive).

Was the display set to 72 Hz with proper 3:3 pullup of 24 fps source material?
post #177 of 883
Chris Wiggles: let's try ONE MORE TIME! What kind of display do you oh learned sensitive expert recommend for the people who DO suffer seeing such things? Is it possible to make a recommendation or does it take a zillion posts back and forth with people trying to quantify what is in somebody else's eyes--even IF it is really there and still not being able to come up with a recommendation?

If anyone in hte history of the universe was going to trash Plasma could you think of a better way to do it?

It is not JUVENILE to ask such questions!

It is JUVENILE to afix the appelation of FARTER to anyone who does!

So the bottom line is this: Will there be a recommendation at the end of this exercise or a zillion posts trashing Plasma with everyone congragulating each other on being mature and discussing such a charade in a thoughtful??? manner?

I acknowledge that some people see things that I do not see.

Can you see a solution for those people problem? I'll even give you all the due respect in the world and just ask you WHAT "IN YOUR OWN EYES" do you SEE as a solution to these people's problem?
post #178 of 883
It's official... I have verified that I too see "rainbows" on my PDP when I watch it through my rose colored glasses!
post #179 of 883
Could some kind hearted mod please put this ridiculous thread out of its misery?
post #180 of 883
Reporting in after my exploration into 3:3 pulldown.

Guess what. It didn't help. Exactly the same thing. So it appears that plasma is out of the question for me. At least this generation of them. Such a shame as they picture truly is stunning. But I see the effect on all makes and models. 2:3 vs 3:3 did not change anything.

I called Panasonic just to see if they have any file on this effect that a VERY SMALL (obviously) slice of the poplulation can see. Of course not... never heard of this before.

I know it's fun for many of you to joke about this condition. But I sure wish you could see what I see just for a moment. Then you'd change your tune. It's not ignorable. It's very distracting and makes watching TV painful.

Heck... I've watched my share of crappy signals with all kinds of noise, bad contrast, terrible picture... and I can deal with all of those things.

Imagine someone standing behind your TV with a bright green flashlight and waving it around so the light shows though the picture when areas turn from dark to light.

Casablanca became my acid test... seeing the rainbow effects are incredibly easy watching the first 5 minutes of that film. That's the worst case scenario. When you move to something like Robots... it more watchable with only the occasional glare of green. The more color in the picture... the better it hides it.

But then KONG has lots of the effect in it too.

So count yourselves lucky... I have to throw in the towel on plasma... perhaps even wait a year or so before trying any upgrade again.

Thanks everyone who tried to help me track this down.

And for all the people that say this thread is ridiculous... just consider for a moment that this matters to some of us.
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