It's official. I see a rainbow-like effect on every plasma. - Page 9

Can you post some examples of your own from your own plasma of the effect you claim to keep seeing?

Elemental, image examples were already posted. If an end-user claims to see this effect, you shouldn't feel the need to doubt that claim right-out, especially if it is repeatable and described in detail.


Yoda: again, ambient light will help minimize the visibility of this, just as it does the visibility of rainbow artifacts on a DLP display for instance. A lower white level setting may also help with this.

But again, if it's that bothersome and you can't change the environment such that it's no longer a distraction, you'd have to consider a different display or display technology.

This is my point I guess. If a set is properly calibrated, then it will minimize the differences caused by ambient light. The picture should be observed the same in a light room as it is in a dark room; this is part of the reason to calibrate. So if it's far less noticeable in the stores, it should be no problem to set the TV at home to provide the same picture. And then on top of that, the store TV's are set way too much in torch mode even for the relatively bright conditions, so setting it more reasonably will also help reduce the effect.

It seems like a simple request to see some first hand examples from the person(s) that are complaining and not some junk pulled off the internet that is hard to verify.
The more responses like yours, the more I will doubt it.

You can see it in the video as a related phosphor decay issue. If you call that "junk" and unverifiable when I explained exactly what it is that you were seeing in the video and why, I wouldn't be surprised if someone did post an image of this that you would also call it unverifiable "junk"

The reason it's difficult to capture with a camera is the same reason it's difficult to capture rainbows on a DLP display: the artifact is temporal in nature, so you need to have a camera fast enough, and you need to move the camera to capture the effect. This is difficult to do, and you would likely call it nonsense because it would be a screenshot taken while rapidly moving the camera and I'm sure you would just equate the result as "camera issues and blurriness."

The last point is, who cares what you think? You don't see this problem. There is no onus on anyone else to prove to you individually that this is a relevant behavior of the display. What would that achieve? Nothing. You can't see this anyway, so why do you even care? You don't care, you just want to continue to flame the experienced members here, and continue to fart on this thread with your snide remarks and unnecessary demands which do nothing to help those who are having fatigue/distraction issues with this artifact.

You are free to begin making constructive posts on this forum at any time.

Yes, though the downside to that is that many want to view in more critical darkened environments, so that's where this may be a concern.

I am not a plasma user, however I would still want to view in a darkened room, and in this case turning on lights would be quite a sacrifice for my viewing preferences. That's why it can be more of an issue for some viewers, and not at all an issue for others, even among those why may be susceptible to seeing these rainbow effects.

So for those few who may be bothered, AND want to view in darkened environments, that's a combination that makes things worse in these regards.

It's not unlike seeing flicker on a CRT, you're a lot more likely to be bothered or fatigued by flicker if you're in a darkened room than if you are in a brightly lit room. For critical viewers who watch in a darkened room, this may exacerbate this fatigue problem if applicable.

I obviously care or I would not be asking. I am looking for the truth and there does not seem to be a lot coming from your posts.
I also find it comical that YOU are mocking my very constructive posts.

I think intelligent readers can discern the intentions behind your postings.:





Quite obviously you own a plasma, and are defensive about that and claim that "it's NOT the tech[nology] at fault here" and further that those who see this must have "ailments." You find it "hard to imagine people are having real issues with these amazing new toys."

So no, I'm not mocking your constructive posts at all, because you've not made any constructive posts at all. I'm glad you find that funny, but other long-term forum members like myself find your behavior very frustrating because there are people who have concerns and issues they'd like to have resolved, and they are NOT helped by newbies like yourself who make a bunch of dismissive posts in threads where they are seeking advice or clarification about their systems. At this point, a gracious person would defer to others who are actually attempting to help guide users towards resolution of the problems they have in their systems. That YOU personally don't consider it a problem is irrelevant.

I could go and grab a bunch of your posts and make you look annoying also but that would be childish.
Instead I will chime in when I feel there is too much BS going on without a challenge.
I am happy to see that you have me figured out and can read my mind also.
Now please, continue with this 'Plasma problem discussion' for now...

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thanks all

thread now open

It looks like I'm also part of this minority. I've been reading this thread form the beginning and had reservations on posting because of how the op and others have been ridiculed for their interpretation of what their eyes see. I thought we would have learned something form history by now. Anyway

Thank you to Yoda1, dalandis and others.

ChrisWiggles is on point. Thanks!

Here's my best attempt at an explanation and some other factors that may help to alleviate this problem for you. I am not a professional of plasmas or phosphors type technologies, however I have an understanding on how these technologies work from what I've read and can use my eyes to see the resulting effect of these technologies. If you have information that debunks my theory, please educate me.

This is all my opinion...

It's phosphors decay with a twist?
The worst condition is when a white pixel changes to black. (Either a lending or tailing edge of motion) One plasma pixel consist of three phosphors, red, green and blue (RGB). On the pixels decent from white to black each phosphor needs to discharge. (Or reverse: On the pixels accent from black to white each phosphor needs to charge) As this happens, the fully light red phosphor begins its journey to black, first passing as pink, then red, then dark red and finally black. The same holds true for green and blue. They most likely fall to black at similar rates but I believe red and blue discharge faster. Side note: The human eye can't see the full range of blue. So at mid point, red and blue discharging slightly quicker, green at half brightness, but your inability to make out the full range of blue, causes you to see more of a mix with green, some red and very little blue. If you mixed these colors, you have a Yellow/Yellow Green.

Fact: Phosphors decay at certain rates. (afterglow duration)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor_thermometry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor

Fact: I see this phenomenon, whether it's my eyes or my plasma.

Why we see this and others don't? I'm not sure. Personally, I'm able to see things with perfect clarity when they are moving at certain rates of high speed. For example: Watching cars go by at 155mph, I will see a motion blur. At 160mph, I can make out the car for several frames with perfect clarity. At 165mph, a blur again. So I think we're sensitive to the speed at which these phosphors decay. Like, being able to see the mixture of colors as a yellow/yellow green several times as the phosphors decays. Hence creating what looks to be a pulsing/strobing effect on the edges of the moving objects.

The first time a watched Sin City on my 42 Panasonic EDTV, the TV was about 2 weeks old, I thought my eyes were going to bleed and my head explode. (I haven't tried watching it since) Also, I can not play any first person video games on my plasma without getting a headache, for me that is the worst. At first I figured it was just my plasma or the source, but after going to a few friends and family members houses, I saw this same phenomenon on every single plasma with different type of source materials. Anytime white meets black with a lot of movement the condition to me is very obvious and hard to ignore. My quest began

Here are a few things that I've found that have helped to alleviate this problem for me.
1) Time. The problem seems to diminish as the plasma logs some hours or I'm just getting accustom to it.
2) The plasma's pixel pitch. The smaller the better. Pixel Pitch (H x V)(42 EDTV 1.08 x 1.08 mm, 42 HDTV 0.90 x 0.67 mm, 50" HDTV 0.81 x 0.81 mm) I'm very interested in Pioneer's new 50 1080p. The density of pixels should create for very small pixels for a 50.
3) Set the contrast down. Shorten the distance between white and black.
4) Sit further away.
5) Create ambient lighting. (Bias lighting)

or Wait for SED Technology?

I'd think as the contrast ratios become larger (blacker blacks and whiter whites) and if decay times stay at the same rate, more people will see this condition. The two examples given by Yoda1 (Post #181) and dalandis screen shot (Post #195) are the best examples of the condition I've seen, but imagine seeing that on a 42 or 50 inch plasma. For me plasma is still the best in PQ for sizes 37 and up and I'm planning on buying a 50 or 58 in screen soon.

That's my take. I only wish I was a better writer to help get my point across.
You stay classy AVS!
Thanks,
-Mike

I think Mike has some very good suggestions and basically mirrors what seems intuitive to me, based on the years I've spent using a plasma. With a good burn-in period, proper backlighting, and a much lower contrast ratio, perhaps the effect can be completely reduced.

I was thinking though, and I disagree with the phosphour decay time being the culprit for what you are seeing. At first it makes sense as this has been well-documented for CRT's. But as was explained in the SED thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7642157 , this should only affect CRT's in that they actually rely on decay times to maintain an image whereas Plasma's do not. This is also explained in our very own FAQ here on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6106839 . Each sub-pixel is turned on and off a great number of times per frame, so it is clear that they react and decay in a much, much, shorter timeframe than would be needed to see the effect on the timescale of an entire picture frame.

Now I'm not questioning what you are seeing, but only why you are seeing it. It seems to me that interlacing could be a main cause of what's being seen. For those with a PC connection, I think it would be worth trying a 60 Hz Native Resolution VGA connection which should ensure good scan-rate sync and also eliminate the TV's scalar. Also ensure that your video drivers are set to sync each frame properly and not display partially-rendered frames. I play Oblivion on my Panny 50" and honestly have noticed no picture artifacts of those sorts at all. And if it's that obvious, I can't understand why I don't notice it at all after over 100 hours of gaming. Maybe eyes and phisiology but that seems unlikely to me. Maybe an issue with the Panny scalar, subipixel control, de-interlacer, or MPEG noise reduction I'm thinking. The VGA connection should remove most of those as variables.

It's also a perceived effect, making it personal. How the images are displayed is one thing, how they are perceived by individuals is quite another. Unless a graphical artist modifies a few screenshots for those of us that do not perceive the effect, we can only imagine it--which is why, in the interest of understanding the issue--and not dismissing it--I pressed for more concise descriptions earlier in the thread.

Has anyone with the issue tried:

-Bias lighting in addition to controlled ambient lighting conditions?
-Covering one eye at a time to see if the effect changes?
-Cutting the chroma on a color picture to see if the effect becomes more pronounced?

Indeed. With a CRT, phosphor decay compensates for the limitation of really only having one active pixel to paint an entire screen combined with our persistence of vision to make images that appear to be moving. With a plasma, every pixel is simultaneously active and our persistence of vision is also used to perceive the brightness of each pixel--the more often a given pixel is pulsed over a given interval, the brighter it is perceived to be for that interval. It appears that some individuals can actually perceive artifacts of this mechanism under certain conditions.

OK, let me digest this again:

It's hard to get more examples but look at this one sshot and video?
Is this one example an anomoly, a one in a million lucky shot?
I'm just trying to get down to the evidence, that's all.

Solid comments Felgar. I also have Oblivion for my 360 (720p via component) and at certain times and points in the game I see this phenomenon. GRAW in the worst game I've seen so far. In PGR3 I don't see it hardly as much, however I'm focused on the center of the screen (the road) were there is little movement. Back to GRAW, in the training mission for example, if I'd look back and forth continuously the screen background would be like smeared yellow/green over the entire background. Some areas would be more concentrated (brighter yellow) when others, so as you look to one side the concentrated area (brighter yellow) would be visible to me as pulsing in different areas of the screen as the movement is occurringif that makes any sense. If I want to play these games I just switch the my 34 Sony XBR and have no problems at all.
I can't see how this could be an interlacing problem. Unless I'm missing your point. I've sent progressive signals via HDMI and component and the results were the same. Contrast seems to be the problem.
Would the 360's VGA cables do as you have described? I believe it outputs 1366x768 @ 60Hz. I don't believe this has anything to do with a panny plasma in particular. I've tested Sin City and GRAW on other manufactures like Samsung, LG and Pioneer with the same results.
Unfortunately I think this has everything to do with it. People respond differently to sounds, taste, touch and how their eyes perceive light. Some people can distinguish every instrument used in a concert by listening. I can not, however I can see machining defeats in the tuba or a loose string of a guitar from 40ft away. Sometimes things can be thought, other times it is an inherent ability.

I'm sure there are electronics that could measure what colors are created from a plasma pixel when it's changing its color from white to black. I would guarantee that other colors would be a result of this transition when dealing with a RGB format. However I can't prove this. This would only suggest that this is what we are seeing.

Thanks Felgar. I appreciate your help.


Agreed.
I agree, however I believe some high speed cameras and video recording devices could capture this phenomenon. Some camera can capture things we can not see. I'll do my best to give you the most descriptive observation I can.
I've tried a controlled ambient lighting and it does make a difference. Make the yellow/yellow green not as pronounced. I've not tried Bais lighting, but I'd think it would render only slightly better results.
Covered one eye at a time. I still can see the yellowish tint. No real change.
How would I cut the chroma on a color picture? I'm only able to adjusted the tint on my plasma. As I move the tint towards green the yellowish become much more green in color. If I go towards red the yellow only appears to become brighter.

-Mike

For people who don't see it, pop GR:AW or BF2:MC into your 360 - assuming you have one. Now go to either Rocky Cove in GR:AW or BridgeTooFar in BF2. Find a place where either buildings or trees are silhouetted against the sky, now move back and forth rapidly, see that yellow outline that follows the trees and buildings? That's it. I don't see it often, if ever, on TV or movies, but quite a bit on video games. Plasma's still my favorite technlogy, though, and i have no intent on ever using anything else until SED(not counting on it) or something else comes along years from now. I have a 42" 60u, bias lit, 500+ hours.

Please help me make a decision. I have seen trails on the panny on video content (mostly sports), but it's usually not a big deal. I am planning on buying the px4260u also, and I am a gamer. How often do you notice the trails? Is it all the time or just sometimes, and does it distract you from the game? Also People keep mentioning GRAW and Oblivion. Do other games have trails as bad or is it just certain games. How many games have you played on your 360 that you have noticed the trails. I almost never see trails when I go to the store and check out the panny on video content. It's games that has me worried. Also, do you usaully see the trails because you are looking for them or are they really in your face and noticable. I just don't want them to ruin the game experience for me. I don't mind seeing them occasionly.

Sorry for all the questions, but I really want a plasma as it has the best picture of any tech out there right now. I hope I don't have to go LCD.

People asking for pictures or videos of the problem need only to look a few pages back and download the video posted. About half way through the video you will see alot of white lights against darker background. Whenever the camera moves you see yellow smears at the edge of the lights. It's very easy to see, and will give you an idea. However if you don't want to know what it looks like, because once you do you will start seeing the trails because you know what to look for, then leave this thread and forget you ever heard of trails or rainbows and you will be happy.

[EDIT]

If anyone knows how. Someone should make a simple video file with a black background and a white object going acroos the screen at various speeds. People can download the video and watch it on there plasma and then this discussion if this problem even exists can be put to rest.

You have just confirmed that this is a source related issue.

I got through post #184 before chiming in. If you can see the trailing blurs in slo-mo or while paused then wouldn't you agree that it's the source?

conan48, I can report back later with what I see for each of the my 360 games. But keep in mind many people use plasmas as their main gaming display and have no problems with this at all. The best thing you can do is play a PS2, Xbox or Xbox360 on a plasma and decide with your own eyes.
-Mike

My understanding is that the video being referenced is actually of a plasma screen showing the game... it's not source game material.

I'm talking about this post:

I also like to enjoy my plasma in a darkened room--this is when I find properly adjusted bias lighting helps the most.

My thinking on the interlacing issue would be this... On a 1080i feed and a fast-panning white edge, the frame would consist of alternating white-black rows on that edge. Now the TV will scale the 1080 lines down to 768 and even if it didn't, the lines would not fall on pixel boundaries unelss the pann was perfectly horizontal. I'm suggesting that the TV no longer has the resolution to display that black/white pattern and the result is a flash of color. The same effect that happens when ref uniforms are shown from too far away in sports events.

Now obviously this can't account for your 360 experience given that it's a 720p source. And not a camera/source material issue, as it would be rendered material. The reason I suggested VGA is that it has the H and V sync signals and I was wondering if the component feed could be getting slightly out of sync. Also even scaling from 720 to 768, the chance for coloration as a result of image scaling and source rows not mapping to even pixel boundaries is there IMO (same issue as the refferees again). But it would be less pronounced than the interlacing I was talking about earlier. But definately, changing to 1366x768 res on the 360 will help remove the scalar from the equation so that at least we can speak to it.

If you can come up with a specific example in Oblivion that's accessible by an early-level character then I can check it out on mine. Though I'm not sure I even want to see them. I run the PC version at 1368x768, 60 Hz.

Basically I'm suggesting that everyone who sees this get out of their mind that the cause is phosphour decay. You said yourself that on your 34" CRT you have no issues, and we know that CRT phosphour decays are possibly hundreds of times longer than on a plasma. If CRT phosphours can decay that evenly, it seems impossible to me that phosphours used in Plasma's could be so dramactially worse.

Is everyone seeing issues running a consumer version? I run a PHD508UK so maybe that has something to do with it...

Hmm... Also, Id like more people to drop their contrast to like 10%... Maybe it's your eyes that have decay issues and not the TV. We know that all eyes have image retention, maybe changing from such a bright white to completely black makes that image fade on your retinas more noticeable, and maybe your retinas decay red faster than green or blue... ??? If so, a much lower contrast ratio should be critical. Honestly the Panny TV's should be run no more than about 20% of total capacity anyways, in a dimly-lit room.

I only notice it when something dark is right up against something light and i'm moving around really quickly. It's fairly easy to miss, especially since i'm usually concentrating on what i'm doing as opposed to objects in the background. It doesn't distract me, and i find it preferable to the ghosting and such of LCDs. With or without the occasional yellow smears, plasma will be my favorite display type for a while.

So am I. Isn't that a live video of an actual plasma screen showing the game?