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It's official. I see a rainbow-like effect on every plasma. - Page 17

post #481 of 883
It does not lessen over time, but you will slowly get used to it and stop looking for it and it won't be as bad over time. But, pysically it's always there and won't go away.
post #482 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

No you're not, the vast majority of plasma owners never report this issue.

Or, he doesn't see it because it's not really there and y'all that have these psychadelic screen artifacts just have EXTREMELY sensitive vision or have some type of epillepsy.

We don't report it because the issue is vision related and not the technology. Some people are sensitive to things like that and I understand their frustrations. But, don't try and make it out to be a plasma-wide picture quality conspiracy or something. Its just sensitive vision and thats it.

In all my years on internet forums for various hobbies such as telescopes, audio, slot cars, etc, etc I have NEVER seen soooooo many posts about wierd *phenomenon* than on the HDTV forums.

Gee Whizz......
post #483 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by s2mikey View Post

We don't report it because the issue is vision related and not the technology. Some people are sensitive to things like that and I understand their frustrations. But, don't try and make it out to be a plasma-wide picture quality conspiracy or something. Its just sensitive vision and thats it.


I disagree, it IS a flaw with plasma technology. Just like the rainbow effect for dlp, which is extremely similar. All i can say is watch a black and white movie or turn your color all the way down to see this effect. If you cant be grateful, but dont claim it's not there. It clearly is a plasma flaw, fujitsus are no different, just like different makes of dlp tv's.
post #484 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

R Harkness. If you want to see the rainbows and/or trails pop in an old black and white movie and you should be able to see them easily after a while. If you want to really see them, then just dart your eyes back and forth across the screen while watching a black and white movie. If you still can't see them then you never will. I rarely see rainbows. (I do see green trails often while gaming. Very easy to see and anyone Ive shown it to can easily see it without trying)

Yea if you cant see color flashes then you wont see the effect.


Quote:


Also, how many of you that see the rainbows have darting eyes? What I mean is that some people when you look them in the eyes their eyes aren't steady but are constantly shifting or moving about.

I see it alot more, everytime if i dart them back and forth. It's not like i see it all the time if i'm concentrating watching a movie, but it does remind me now and then. It's as if plasmas picture is always 'pulsating', on a paused scene i see stuff moving, dont know wha the heck that is
post #485 of 883
Quote:


It's as if plasmas picture is always 'pulsating', on a paused scene i see stuff moving, dont know wha the heck that is

It's funny that you mention that. I've never really posted this on any forum either, but it kind of reminds me of the refresh flicker I would see on a CRT monitor running at 60hz or less.
post #486 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I disagree, it IS a flaw with plasma technology. Just like the rainbow effect for dlp, which is extremely similar. All i can say is watch a black and white movie or turn your color all the way down to see this effect. If you cant be grateful, but dont claim it's not there. It clearly is a plasma flaw, fujitsus are no different, just like different makes of dlp tv's.

S2mikey is correct.
This 'issue' has been reported on just about EVERY display tech and it is not plasma specific and to label it so is misleading at best.
post #487 of 883
It is a possibility that what some people are reporting as a "rainbow effect" is actually dissimilar lag (temporary retention) in the red, green and blue phosphors of the plasma.

That could be a possibility. The only caveat is that it should be observed on a CRT as well.
post #488 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I disagree, it IS a flaw with plasma technology. Just like the rainbow effect for dlp, which is extremely similar. All i can say is watch a black and white movie or turn your color all the way down to see this effect. If you cant be grateful, but dont claim it's not there. It clearly is a plasma flaw, fujitsus are no different, just like different makes of dlp tv's.

Could be, Zeus. I guess my thing is that if we don't see it then in a sense it's NOT really there.

Ya know, "tree falls in the woods, noone is there to hear it does it make a sound?" story. Same thing applies: If a plasma is creating rainbow effects but a lot of us don't see them.... then are they *really* there? Yes and No I guess.

Oh well, I dont see them so good for me!
post #489 of 883
I saw an artifact like this when darting my eyes back and forth really fast.
Wife said, 'cut it out, you look dopey'.

Worked like a charm.
post #490 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by John F. Palacio View Post

It is a possibility that what some people are reporting as a "rainbow effect" is actually dissimilar lag (temporary retention) in the red, green and blue phosphors of the plasma.

That could be a possibility. The only caveat is that it should be observed on a CRT as well.

That's absolutely correct, and was explained earlier in the thread. And indeed, it is observable on CRTs as well.
post #491 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by John F. Palacio View Post

It is a possibility that what some people are reporting as a "rainbow effect" is actually dissimilar lag (temporary retention) in the red, green and blue phosphors of the plasma.

That could be a possibility. The only caveat is that it should be observed on a CRT as well.

Or perhaps it could be attributed to your Cable TV provider's crappy signal.
post #492 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Or perhaps it could be attributed to your Cable TV provider's crappy signal.

And exactly how does a crappy cable signal result in different phosphor decay times????????????????
post #493 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalandis View Post

I also went to a local HomeMedia store and sat in their pro room... looking at a Pioneer Pro profesionally tweaked out... thought there was nothing... but then they changed the channel to a movie of the Addams Family and SCREAMING rainbows showed up in people's white shirts.

dalandis

Okay, this may be a wild hunch, but plasma displays have a RGB pattern to their phosphor dots, just like a CRT. When you have a picture with a periodic pattern of B&W stripes, very close together, these can hetrodyne against the stripe mask and cause rainbows in a moire pattern. I've seen this with interview shows in which someone is wearing a shirt or suit with vertical stripes. When the camera is in focus, the stripes resolve somewhere early in the signal chain, but further out, they may merge into a solid grey, but the rainbow pattern is left because of "aliasing" against either the stripe mask in the video camera (not likely with 3-tube broadcast cameras) or somewhere in the signal processing. If it does make it to your TV, it could be aliasing against the trio of color stripes.
The reason this is not seen on LCD is because all three color primaries are stacked one on top of the other, not next to eachother.

Just a hunch.
post #494 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by John F. Palacio View Post

And exactly how does a crappy cable signal result in different phosphor decay times????????????????

Garbage in = garbage out.
post #495 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Or perhaps it could be attributed to your Cable TV provider's crappy signal.

No, the artifacts being described here are temporal in nature and are not related to the content. They can be isolated by pausing an image on the screen and observing the after-effects of the phosphor delay "rainbows." Again, as I explained earlier in the thread, these are quite distinct in principle from the rainbow-effect on a single chip DLP, but they have a similar characteristic in terms of them being temporal colored artifacts.

This has all been hashed out earlier in the thread if you actually read through it. People suggesting that it is due to source issues or insanity or other issues are not being helpful, and it illustrates a failure to understand the artifact being described her. Furthermore, it is an artifact that realistically is unlikely to bother the VAST majority of viewers.
post #496 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basspig View Post

Okay, this may be a wild hunch, but plasma displays have a RGB pattern to their phosphor dots, just like a CRT. When you have a picture with a periodic pattern of B&W stripes, very close together, these can hetrodyne against the stripe mask and cause rainbows in a moire pattern. I've seen this with interview shows in which someone is wearing a shirt or suit with vertical stripes. When the camera is in focus, the stripes resolve somewhere early in the signal chain, but further out, they may merge into a solid grey, but the rainbow pattern is left because of "aliasing" against either the stripe mask in the video camera (not likely with 3-tube broadcast cameras) or somewhere in the signal processing. If it does make it to your TV, it could be aliasing against the trio of color stripes.
The reason this is not seen on LCD is because all three color primaries are stacked one on top of the other, not next to eachother.

Just a hunch.

Again, this is not what is being seen.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but hunches or suggestions are not particularly helpful to the thread. Read back in the whole thread, all these things have been discussed before, and the nature of the artifact has been explained and documented as well. Moire is not at all what is being seen here.
post #497 of 883
Whatever it is I wish it would go away I'd like to share what I'm finding in reviews of plasmas regarding this issue.

I am the most visually sensitive person I know and this issue is driving me nuts. I have 3 plasmas at home right now and I've spent a ridiculous amount of time evaluating plasmas at home and in the store over the last few months.

There are a few things I can say for certainty with regards to this issue for me alone:

I notice it much more on Pioneer-based plasmas. I've had 3 in my home in the last 4 months and I see the problem without having to dart my eyes at all. Just turn on some content with medium-high contrast and I can see it from 25 feet away in my kitchen on a 50" plasma! I watched a few minutes of The Wedding Date last night where everyone is in dark suits standing outside prior to the wedding and the rainbows were very apparent as it is in other movies. Watching black and white movies is nearly impossible for me with all of the flashing I see on these displays. I told my wife that it's extremely annoying and could maybe be likened to someone standing behind the TV and shining a little pen light in your eyes occasionally while you're watching TV. This is a little dramatic, but it should give some idea as to how annoying it could be.

It's still visible, but not nearly as noticeable on Panasonic-based plasmas. I think this is for two reasons--the effect just seems to happen less frequently on these displays for some reason, and/or it seems to not be as bright or have as much color information. Sometime it just seems like a quick flash of white or yellow and not always a full bright rainbow of colors, if you will, like I see on the Pioneer units. Overall though it's more difficult to spot and doesn't seem to catch the eye as much for me on the Panasonic-based plasmas.

It's not source dependent, but it does vary by display. Right now I have a Fujitsu and a Runco plasma in my living room connected to digital cable via Comcast and an HD DVD player. I can see rainbows on the Runco very easily with either source. This is the same as I've seen with the Pioneer 5070 and 1140, both of which I have also had at home. It's much more difficult to spot this issue on the Fujitsu with the same source/content and similar initial AVIA calibration. In fact, it's basically a non-issue on the Fujitsu as it's so much less noticeable.

It doesn't give me eye strain and headaches like watching DLP. It's just super annoying. So I could live with it if I chose to, but it's prevalent enough that I would frequently see it and I could not ignore it.

I have a 4 year old Panasonic commercial ED plasma and I don't see anything significant in this regard on that unit. They may be there, but I can't spot them easily even if I try. I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with the fact that the older plasma has lower contrast, but I really don't know.

This is a significant enough problem for me that I've spent a number of days trying to decide if I can live with it on the Runco as it's just about the only thing stopping me from keeping it over the Fujitsu. I probably shouldn't have tried the Runco, but I was hoping it would be a problem. I may actually buy a plasma I don't completely prefer, in the Fujitsu, because of this issue so it's definitely very real...for me.

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed the issue varying from one brand of plasma to another?
post #498 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

That's absolutely correct, and was explained earlier in the thread. And indeed, it is observable on CRTs as well.

Totally different effect, unique to plasma.
post #499 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPNYC View Post


It's still visible, but not nearly as noticeable on Panasonic-based plasmas.

Sounds like that is your solution then?
Just to update I do not see this artifact any more on my year old 42PHD8 as I assume the phosphors have equalised as they died off.

This is exactly the same behaviour I got on my previous 37pw5 ( a lovely panel) visible rainbowing for the first couple of months with the effect then dying off completely.
post #500 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Totally different effect, unique to plasma.

Sorry looks exactly the same as unequal phosphor decay rates on CRT based displays.
post #501 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Sorry looks exactly the same as unequal phosphor decay rates on CRT based displays.

My crt pc monitor, or tube tv dont have the same effect. Nowhere near.
post #502 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

My crt pc monitor, or tube tv dont have the same effect. Nowhere near.

Its possible your particular display does not exhibit the effect.
Its possible your visual system does not percieve the effect.

However the artifact itself is pretty much identical to unequal phosphor decay rates exhibited by CRT based display devices ( one reason I don't actually like CRT projectors that much).
post #503 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

It does not lessen over time, but you will slowly get used to it and stop looking for it and it won't be as bad over time. But, pysically it's always there and won't go away.

In my experience with two panasonic plasmas the effect minimises over time to the point its effectively no longer happening. New plasma has the effect , older plasma no longe has it . Over time the newer plasma loses the artifact.

This isn't a question of getting used to the artifact. The artifact is physically no longer present as the phosphor decays to the point of equilibrium.
post #504 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Its possible your particular display does not exhibit the effect.

True, because it dont have the same effect.

Quote:


Its possible your visual system does not percieve the effect.

If crt had the same effect, i would percieve it.

Quote:


However the artifact itself is pretty much identical to unequal phosphor decay rates exhibited by CRT based display devices ( one reason I don't actually like CRT projectors that much).

Again, the artifact must be totally different than what you're thinking.
post #505 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basspig View Post

The reason this is not seen on LCD is because all three color primaries are stacked one on top of the other, not next to eachother.
Just a hunch.

I think most LCDs use spatial RGB subpixels (not stacked).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I don't mean to be dismissive, but hunches or suggestions are not particularly helpful to the thread. Read back in the whole thread, all these things have been discussed before, and the nature of the artifact has been explained and documented as well. Moire is not at all what is being seen here.

I was under the impression that this entire thread is based on hunches? When was documented proof given. I don't feel like reading the entire thread again so could you just post it again, thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

The artifact is physically no longer present as the phosphor decays to the point of equilibrium.

Please explain this better. What do you mean by point of equiblibrium?


Cheers
post #506 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFPalacio View Post

And exactly how does a crappy cable signal result in different phosphor decay times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Garbage in = garbage out.

Wow! Not only is your answer very clever, it is also keenly descriptive and extremely informative.

Is this an original? If it is, my hats off to you!
post #507 of 883
It's official; this thread is driving me nuts.
post #508 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

True, because it dont have the same effect.



If crt had the same effect, i would percieve it.



Again, the artifact must be totally different than what you're thinking.

"Doesn't" dear boy.

I assume you are inferring you have seen every single CRT display device in the world then?

I've seen this artifact on CRT and I know what it is . (in fact its well documented) The fact it looks exactly the same as the plasma artifact under discussion and it lessens over time as the brightness of the phosphors decreases over time (equilibrium...get it) says to me its the same artifact.
post #509 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

"Doesn't" dear boy.

I assume you are inferring you have seen every single CRT display device in the world then?

I've seen this artifact on CRT and I know what it is . (in fact its well documented) The fact it looks exactly the same as the plasma artifact under discussion and it lessens over time as the brightness of the phosphors decreases over time (equilibrium...get it) says to me its the same artifact.

Mr.D is correct.

It's not visible on a lot of direct view and consumer CRTs because they use green phosphors which are extremely slow to minimize flicker and scanline flicker with interlaced sources so all you're likely to see is giant green trails because the decay is SOO slow. On a high-end or graphics grade CRT monitor with a fast enough green at an appropriate refresh progressively scanne, you can see the decay effects and you can see yellowish-greenish kinds of "rainbow" type artifacts very much like those documented here.

I can see these on my CRT very easily if I run it at around 60hz progressive. I run 72hz progressive and they are mostly not a problem except occasionally with some high contrast content, particularly B&W content. I am particularly susceptible to these kinds of artifacts, most people aren't going to notice them ever.
post #510 of 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

"Doesn't" dear boy.

Grammer lessons appreciated granpa

Quote:
I assume you are inferring you have seen every single CRT display device in the world then?

Just pc monitor, direc-view- rear projection

Quote:
I've seen this artifact on CRT and I know what it is . (in fact its well documented) The fact it looks exactly the same as the plasma artifact under discussion and it lessens over time as the brightness of the phosphors decreases over time (equilibrium...get it) says to me its the same artifact.

Just how long does it take to lessen, disappear? Over a year on mine with virtually no change. I still dont think we are talking about the same artifact, effect.
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