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MASTER BURN-IN/BREAK-IN THREAD: ALL POSTS HERE ONLY! - Page 92  

post #2731 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by why2not View Post

Quite possibly your settings are too hot. Can you tell us what they are?

My settings are as followed:

Pic Mode - Standard
Picture - +10 out of 30
Brightness - 0 out of 30
Color - 0 out of 30
Tint - 0 out of 30
Sharpness - 0 out of 30
Color Temp - Cool
Color mng. - On
Video NR - Off
3D Y/C Filter - On
MPEG NR - Off

Thanks for the reply, If you have any thoughts on what my settings should be, please let me know
post #2732 of 2990
That doesn't look too bad. Maybe try dialing your picture down to 5 & see if that improves it. Also, you can try checking this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=657575
post #2733 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by NobaFett View Post

Well, in my opinipon its only slightly perceiveable now.

The rest of your comment worries me because I played it for way more than 10 hours. If I had already watched the TV for 100 hours, id put Madden at maybe 40 hours of that time. So you're saying that it make take 240 hours to get back to square one? Yikes...

Yeah, though, that's the baseline. That assumes you use the same settings for games and the same settings for video. If you play games in power save mode, or lower contrast/color/brightness settings, and then jack them up for other video, you can probably reduce it to 4x. 2 hours madden, 8 hours video. This ratio will go down once you are past the 1000 hour mark.

I mainly got my Plasma for Xbox360, and really hate the IR issues, but frankly I wanted the absolute best picture possible and there's no way an LCD can do it. If you go back 10 or so pages, you'll hear my story.

The way I'm dealing with old/new IR is whenever I'm not using the TV, I am looping the break-in DVD at high contrast/color settings. Once you babysit it a few times, and have a good DVD player, you can have it running when you sleep/go to work. For some reason when the DVD finishes it auto-shuts off my xbox360.

If you run it while you sleep/work (16 hours), you can then game for about 4 hours a day with no issues, which should keep ya happy. After 1k hours, I'd just run the DVD overnight once a week to keep phosphors up to speed.
post #2734 of 2990
Well, when things get back to normal...which based on how much its faded so far will probably take a month or so...I plan on using game mode for any static-image games.

Of course, this would all be a non-issue if developers would make use of transparent and disappearing HUDS, or let you adjust them. I really dont like the idea of babysitting my TV, but I understand its just an inherent trade-off for the technology.
post #2735 of 2990
Game mode is a good start, but don't expect it to make you immune to IR. The worst IR I have atm is from using Game Mode, Power Save mode 1 on my 4270HD, playing a game for about ~10 hours in a short amount of time at 200hours of panel life.

There's not a lot of sympathy for plasma burn in as far as game companies or broadcasting networks are concerned. Some people may say that's a good thing, as it forces plasma manufacturers to make improvements/changes to the panel, which overall delivers a better product.
post #2736 of 2990
I really think this whole IR/Burn-In worry about gaming is WAAAAYYYY overrated.
I am a recent owner of the Panny 50px60u.
I did the 100 hour break-in at "0" settings before playing 360 longer than an hour.

Now I play Gears of War, F.E.A.R., and other game with HUDS for longer than an hour. Sometimes 2 hours at a time. Then I switch to a black and/or white imput and see SLIGHT IR from the HUD. After less than an hour of TV, the IR is COMPLETELY GONE.

Not only that, but the degree of IR I see after 2 hours of gaming is the EXACT SAME level or IR I see on my set after a 30 sec commercial with a logo (e.g. BOSE) or a minute of a logo-filled channel. This leads me to believe that all this is nonsence.

The ONLY thing I do is make sure I play my games at the old picture settings at "0" and if I play longer than an hour, I "zoom" the screen in for the remaining time to change the location of the HUD.

I'm not worried at all anymore.
post #2737 of 2990
I have been spending a lot of time on these forums while waiting for my Panasonic 50PH9UK to arrive from a popular national warehouse store. I intend to use the panel for abt 3-6 hrs a day running SD Indian channels that have a logo on the bottom. While I can zoom in to cover the entire panel the logo will still remain. Would this cause any permanent damage to the panel? I do plan to use the Burn In DVD for 100-200 hrs. If required I can use it on the first month each night as well.
post #2738 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by XboxEboy View Post

I really think this whole IR/Burn-In worry about gaming is WAAAAYYYY overrated.
I am a recent owner of the Panny 50px60u.
I did the 100 hour break-in at "0" settings before playing 360 longer than an hour.

Now I play Gears of War, F.E.A.R., and other game with HUDS for longer than an hour. Sometimes 2 hours at a time. Then I switch to a black and/or white imput and see SLIGHT IR from the HUD. After less than an hour of TV, the IR is COMPLETELY GONE.

Not only that, but the degree of IR I see after 2 hours of gaming is the EXACT SAME level or IR I see on my set after a 30 sec commercial with a logo (e.g. BOSE) or a minute of a logo-filled channel. This leads me to believe that all this is nonsence.

The ONLY thing I do is make sure I play my games at the old picture settings at "0" and if I play longer than an hour, I "zoom" the screen in for the remaining time to change the location of the HUD.

I'm not worried at all anymore.

Same Here, I played TDU for alittle over 4 hours straight *alittle tipsy* and not even IR. I have the same Panasonic,
post #2739 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by XboxEboy View Post

I really think this whole IR/Burn-In worry about gaming is WAAAAYYYY overrated.
I am a recent owner of the Panny 50px60u.
I did the 100 hour break-in at "0" settings before playing 360 longer than an hour.

Now I play Gears of War, F.E.A.R., and other game with HUDS for longer than an hour. Sometimes 2 hours at a time. Then I switch to a black and/or white imput and see SLIGHT IR from the HUD. After less than an hour of TV, the IR is COMPLETELY GONE.

Not only that, but the degree of IR I see after 2 hours of gaming is the EXACT SAME level or IR I see on my set after a 30 sec commercial with a logo (e.g. BOSE) or a minute of a logo-filled channel. This leads me to believe that all this is nonsence.

The ONLY thing I do is make sure I play my games at the old picture settings at "0" and if I play longer than an hour, I "zoom" the screen in for the remaining time to change the location of the HUD.

I'm not worried at all anymore.

I have the same tv just the 42 inch model and I also put the settings at zero but I and have the same image retention as mentioned above. Is there any way to make sure the pixels orbiter/shifter is on and working in my tv?

I wouldn't think that having a logo up for 30 secs should leave anything at all. Everyone keeps saying that this kind of behavior should only happpen if you leave static images up for hrs upon hrs or days at a time.
post #2740 of 2990
Do plasmas have memory? What I mean by that is...let's say I'm playing Lost Planet on my Xbox 360...it has a radar in the HUD that usually leaves IR (not burn in)...now after watching TV for a bit, it dims and goes away...

However, the next time I play the game, does the TV get IR quicker in that spot since it had IR there before? Just wondering...
post #2741 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2j420 View Post

Do plasmas have memory? What I mean by that is...let's say I'm playing Lost Planet on my Xbox 360...it has a radar in the HUD that usually leaves IR (not burn in)...now after watching TV for a bit, it dims and goes away...

However, the next time I play the game, does the TV get IR quicker in that spot since it had IR there before? Just wondering...


EXCELLENT QUESTION!!!!!!!!!


I have been trying to put this question into words for a while..and you did it. Any thoughts?
post #2742 of 2990
No, they don't have 'memory.' Each phosphor/pixel on the screen has its own age and depending on the age it has a certain dim rate. The older the phosphor, the slower the dim rate.

This idea of different dim rates is what allows IR/Burn in to go away given enough time because the younger pixels dim faster then used pixels. However, as it gets closer, the younger pixels dim rate begins to slow down and will technically NEVER approach the older pixels unless some type of reverse imagery is used.

As long as you do what you can between sessions to keep the aging even (break in dvd, full video, white washes, etc), there is no memory.
post #2743 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodrin View Post

No, they don't have 'memory.' Each phosphor/pixel on the screen has its own age and depending on the age it has a certain dim rate. The older the phosphor, the slower the dim rate.

This idea of different dim rates is what allows IR/Burn in to go away given enough time because the younger pixels dim faster then used pixels. However, as it gets closer, the younger pixels dim rate begins to slow down and will technically NEVER approach the older pixels unless some type of reverse imagery is used.

As long as you do what you can between sessions to keep the aging even (break in dvd, full video, white washes, etc), there is no memory.

This answer doesn't make sense to me a for a couple reasons.

1) If the dim rate for a pixel/phosphor slows down as it gets older, how do you explain the fact that the chance for IR/Burn-in actually reduces the older the phosphor is (the more hours on your tv)? It seems to me that IR/Burn-In risk would be directly proportional to the dim rate. Meaning, the faster the dim rate, the less chance for IR/B-I.

2) If what you are saying is true...meaning phosphors age differently and individually, then this is a "memory" of sorts. Because the HUD or Logo is always in the same spot, this is aging those particular phosphors/pixels more than the others. And it does so each time you play with that HUD or watch with that logo. So, the HUD-associated pixels/phosphors age faster and thus have a "memory" in terms of their dim rates.
post #2744 of 2990
When your panel is older, and all your phosphors are older, their dim rates are all low.

To create IR/Burn in on a plasma panel, you need some pixels on the screen to be visibly less bright then others. When dim rates are high, and you use static logo's (which use one continuous phosphor combination for an extended period of time), this creates the visible gap in brightness. The phosphors under the logo have dimmed considerably more then the surrounding phosphors. So much, that it's visible. This is why young panels cause IR so easily.

When then panel is old (by old, I mean evenly worn for a long amount of time, about ~1k hours normal viewing) dim rates are lower. If you subject the screen to the same static logo torture, it takes much LONGER for a visible difference in brightness to occur.

It doesn't mean your panel is immune to uneven phosphor wear when it's old. It just means it takes a lot longer to achive the same gap in brightness that it did when your panel was young.
post #2745 of 2990
Well Said
post #2746 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodrin View Post

When your panel is older, and all your phosphors are older, their dim rates are all low.

To create IR/Burn in on a plasma panel, you need some pixels on the screen to be visibly less bright then others. When dim rates are high, and you use static logo's (which use one continuous phosphor combination for an extended period of time), this creates the visible gap in brightness. The phosphors under the logo have dimmed considerably more then the surrounding phosphors. So much, that it's visible. This is why young panels cause IR so easily.

When then panel is old (by old, I mean evenly worn for a long amount of time, about ~1k hours normal viewing) dim rates are lower. If you subject the screen to the same static logo torture, it takes much LONGER for a visible difference in brightness to occur.

It doesn't mean your panel is immune to uneven phosphor wear when it's old. It just means it takes a lot longer to achive the same gap in brightness that it did when your panel was young.

WEll that clears up one of my questions. The other, then, is how is this not "memory?" If you play a game with a HUD, for example, and then clear the IR with hours of full screen content, the phosphors under that HUD are still "older" than the others. So when you play that game again, those HUD-phosphers are still older. This is not a memory of sorts????

I'm not trying to argue, just understand.
post #2747 of 2990
For practical argument, yes, all the phosphors exposed to the hud elements will be slightly older then surrounding phosphors. As time goes on, this slight difference will be virtually 'imperceivable.'
post #2748 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodrin View Post

For practical argument, yes, all the phosphors exposed to the hud elements will be slightly older then surrounding phosphors. As time goes on, this slight difference will be virtually 'imperceivable.'


You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Just kidding.

So, if after time goes on the difference is inconcei...er...imperceivable, are you saying that IR/Burn is basically only possible within the first 1000 hours?
post #2749 of 2990
No, I mean it's virtually impossible to correct uneven phosphor wear and every panel gets uneven phosphor wear to SOME degree. Every panel, regardless of content, will have SOME uneven phosphor wear. Period. The only way to not get uneven phosphor wear is to watch the break in DVD where every pixel/phosphor is used the exact same way with every scene.

Burn in is uneven phosphor wear to such a degree that the human eye can perceive a difference in brightness.

Regardless of the type of content you watch, there's absolutely no way that all 1-2 million pixels have the exact same age on all 3 of their phosphors. No movie or game exercises all pixels evenly. If you watch a Discovery channel show about some hikers going through the forest... chances are most of the time there's green trees at the bottom of the screen, and blue sky at the top. That's going to cause uneven wear. The top part of the screen has used more blue, the bottom more green, and there wasn't alot of red used except during white (clouds, hiker shirts, rocks, etc...)

What keeps uneven phosphor wear from being visible is that dim rates change based on age. I want you to picture two runners. One has a 1000 foot head start (burn in) over the other. The lead runner is moving at 10ft/sec (slow dim rate), the back runner is moving at 12ft/sec (fast dim rate). The gap (burn in) is going to start shrinking (burn in less visible) because the back runner is moving faster (younger phosphors age faster). But as they move forward (playing full video), their running speeds are goin down (dim rate is a function of age). After about 10 seconds, the lead runner is now moving at 9ft/sec, the back runner is moving at 11ft/sec. The gap is shrinking, but it's not shrinking as fast anymore. etc.... etc...

The back runner never catches up, but he gets slightly closer and slightly closer as time goes on. After a long time (many hours of motion video), it appears that both runner have run the same practical distance (phosphor wear appears even)

When you have an OLD panel, it takes considerably longer to get that type of head start, and you won't see the burn in because the head start never gets that big. However, if you still do the same exact content over and over again, you will cause uneven phosphor wear even on older plasma's. Just instead of taking 5 hours to get some IR from that Gears of War logo, it would take ~50 hours.
post #2750 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by XboxEboy View Post

You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Just kidding.

My name is XboxEboy, your burned my plasma, prepare to die

Quote:
Originally Posted by XboxEboy View Post

So, if after time goes on the difference is inconcei...er...imperceivable, are you saying that IR/Burn is basically only possible within the first 1000 hours?

Burn in is possible after 1000 hours. It just takes longer for a static image to be burned in.

On the flip side, if your plasma is older than 1000 hours and you have burn in, it will take longer to remove it.
post #2751 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by renlopez View Post

My name is XboxEboy, your burned my plasma, prepare to die


Burn in is possible after 1000 hours. It just takes longer for a static image to be burned in.

On the flip side, if your plasma is older than 1000 hours and you have burn in, it will take longer to remove it.

You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched tvs when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when burn-in is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...


LOL. Thanks for the explanation! I also enjoyed the Leni Riefenstahl "Olypia"-like running analogy (and associated imagery),
post #2752 of 2990
Am I freaking out for no reason? That is the question.

I have the Hitachi 42HDS69 and have noticed, ever-so-faintly, the ESPN logo "burned" into my screen. Granted, it's not noticeable from viewing distance (about 10ft) and can really only be noticed when I am right next to the screen and when the screen wipe is on. I have run the screen wipe with little improvement. I have the pixels set to shift every 2 minutes.

Hopefully this is nothing major since I have gone out of my way to prevent harmful "burn." I did my homework and avoided 2.35:1 films and sidebars through the 100 hour break-in period.

Thanks to anyone who can alleviate my fears!

EDIT: I have had the set for about a month, by the way.
post #2753 of 2990
If all you do is watch ESPN, that logo will continue to get worse, regardless of the age of the panel. The first 100 hours panels are VERY sensitive to logo's, during the next 900 hours they are less sensitive (note: less, not immune)

Pixel shift won't help much, the only thing pixel shift will do is create a gradient between the bright parts of your panel, and the darker logo area. If there's a gradient there, it's harder to casually notice.

If that logo is bothering you, I suggest you run the break in DVD on this forum overnight, or whenever your panel isn't being used. Run it at high contrast/color/brightness. Every hour you have that logo on the screen, you have to pay out 5 hours of non-logo material to prevent that IR from becoming serious.
post #2754 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromTheBalcony View Post

Am I freaking out for no reason? That is the question.

I have the Hitachi 42HDS69 and have noticed, ever-so-faintly, the ESPN logo "burned" into my screen.

If you continue to watch ESPN more than 20% of the time, The best way to prevent/eliminate burn-in is using a negative screen saver. Where it will take 5 hours of other programming for every hour you watch ESPN, running negative will work much faster. Only 1 hour of negative 1 hour ESPN. If your PDP doesn't have negative, then you have to go the full screen programming route.
post #2755 of 2990
Thanks for the replies, guys. I'm currently running the Break-In DVD at 75% contrast and I think it may already be working. The logo was very faint to begin with (I couldn't even notice it when watching normal TV, SD or HD), but I guess it just bothers me that it's there.

Thanks again for the help and I'll report back in the next day or so after gassing it with this DVD.
post #2756 of 2990
Just make using the break in DVD a routine during the first 1k hours. Run it overnight once a week. Run it more or less often depending on the IR you start seeing.
post #2757 of 2990
Will do. This sucks because I love my ESPNHD, but I do wish they'd dim that BRIGHT white logo. The red "HD" part has not caused any problem.

I'll update with results once I really get some time in with the DVD. I have (or want) to think this will go away.
post #2758 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromTheBalcony View Post

Will do. This sucks because I love my ESPNHD, but I do wish they'd dim that BRIGHT white logo. The red "HD" part has not caused any problem.

I'll update with results once I really get some time in with the DVD. I have (or want) to think this will go away.

White gets me too...I'm about 2 weeks in with a faded Madden logo I can see only on white screens (it shows up a dim shadow-purplish). I can't say its faded all that much, but everyone seems to think it's just IR.
post #2759 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by renlopez View Post

If you continue to watch ESPN more than 20% of the time, The best way to prevent/eliminate burn-in is using a negative screen saver. Where it will take 5 hours of other programming for every hour you watch ESPN, running negative will work much faster. Only 1 hour of negative 1 hour ESPN. If your PDP doesn't have negative, then you have to go the full screen programming route.

Where can I get a negative screen saver? I'd love a reverse image program, but all Samsung provides is signal pattern and white wash.
post #2760 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromTheBalcony View Post

Am I freaking out for no reason? That is the question.

I have the Hitachi 42HDS69 and have noticed, ever-so-faintly, the ESPN logo "burned" into my screen. Granted, it's not noticeable from viewing distance (about 10ft) and can really only be noticed when I am right next to the screen and when the screen wipe is on. I have run the screen wipe with little improvement. I have the pixels set to shift every 2 minutes.

Hopefully this is nothing major since I have gone out of my way to prevent harmful "burn." I did my homework and avoided 2.35:1 films and sidebars through the 100 hour break-in period.

Thanks to anyone who can alleviate my fears!

EDIT: I have had the set for about a month, by the way.

I have the same TV. The IR issue didn't really start to become a non-factor until I reached about 700 hours. Now I'm pushing 1000 and I don't really think about it at all...except when playing Madden 07 on 360. Damn EA, damn them to hell.
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