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MASTER BURN-IN/BREAK-IN THREAD: ALL POSTS HERE ONLY! - Page 99  

post #2941 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by ron12n View Post

Actually, no.

What throws people off are the misnomers 'brightness' and 'contrast'. To
clarify things for yourself, think of brightness as 'Black level' and of
contrast as 'White level'. which is what they really are. Turning black
level up does not materially make whites brighter. Turning white level
up does not materially make blacks brighter.

The purpose of break in is to evenly excite the phosphors at low levels.
At a given white level setting, reducing black level increases contrast,
which is not what you want for break in.

The advice given earlier, to run break in at less than 50% contrast
setting is reasonable. But, I would leave the brightness setting as is.

-- Ron

Ok, let's go to the basics, which is a good thing to do actually, because when the basics are covered, little space remains for misunderstanding :-)
What's brightness? Brightness is an intensity of the energy output of a visible light source. To put is simpler - it's an amount of light emitted by every pixel of the display, relatively to it's present state of excitement. Not that simpler, er? :-) Example then. Let's say we have a picture on a display. It has a logo of 30% of black on the background of, say, 70% of black. The difference of brightness (or the energy output) is 40%, which creates a slight possibility of developing burn-in over an extended period of time. Now, let's turn up brightness of the screen by 20%. What we'll have is a logo that is 10% black and a background that is 50% black. The difference is still 40%, the possibility of burn-in is the same, but a possibility of image retention (which is really an alltogether different thing) increases significantly.
What's contrast? It's the difference between the lightest and darkest areas on a display screen. The same situation: 30% logo and 70% background. Let's turn up contrast by 20% and we'll get a 20% of black logo and 80% of black backgroung. The difference is now 60% instead of 40, which dramatically increases the possibility of ineven ageing of phosphors, especially on a brand-new plasma (and a possibility of IR as well).
So, the point is - it's better to turn down the contrast during first 200 hours, and to keep brightness at reasonable levels, but if the image is too dark, there is no harm of increasing the level of brightness by 10-15%. And yes, the only reason of breaking in plasmas is to age fresh and fragile phosphors evenly and thus prevent burn-in. There's really no other reason IMHO.
post #2942 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by fogey View Post

And yes, the only reason of breaking in plasmas is to age fresh and fragile phosphors evenly and thus prevent burn-in. There's really no other reason IMHO.

See, that's were I don't agree with you. From what I've gathered over the last few months, here, and from many other sources of information: the benefits of a proper break-in is not limited to burn-in prevention. The even application if energy to the phosphors will help them to avoid burn-in during their most vulnerable stage (new). We all seem to agree here. What you seem to dismiss/ignore is that slow and even application of energy to the phosphors will cause them to (hopefully) age in a manner that will allow them to provide the best picture, for the longest amount of time. Thus, giving the best possible picture over time. An additional benefit in my opinion.
post #2943 of 2990
Hey guys, I've a quick question:
What would be worse for a plasma tv: watching a 2hr plus movie with black bars top/bottom or, watching lets say, a 3hrs football game with a couple of big logos?
post #2944 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by EchoTony View Post

See, that's were I don't agree with you. From what I've gathered over the last few months, here, and from many other sources of information: the benefits of a proper break-in is not limited to burn-in prevention. The even application if energy to the phosphors will help them to avoid burn-in during their most vulnerable stage (new). We all seem to agree here. What you seem to dismiss/ignore is that slow and even application of energy to the phosphors will cause them to (hopefully) age in a manner that will allow them to provide the best picture, for the longest amount of time. Thus, giving the best possible picture over time. An additional benefit in my opinion.

In fact, here I more than agree with you :-) Any person with some sense won't drive plasma in "torch mode", not during break-in period, nor aftewards. You want your screen to last longer, you should keep it as bright, as it's comfortable for the eyes, no more. I'm just trying to alleviate paranoia that prevents some people from enjoying their sets. Is it really necessary to watch movies that are so dark one cannot see any details, even just for a hundred hours? If the contrast is down, a little bit of additional brightnes won't do any harm. Those two parameters are closely connected. With low contrast one just wouldn't turn up brightness high enough to damage the phosphors, because the picture would be too washed up. That's why adjustments of these parameters usually start with contrast, and then the brightness is getting adjusted accordingly to the parameters of contrast.
post #2945 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by fogey View Post

Ok, let's go to the basics, which is a good thing to do actually, because when the basics are covered, little space remains for misunderstanding :-)
What's brightness? Brightness is an intensity of the energy output of a visible light source. To put is simpler - it's an amount of light emitted by every pixel of the display, relatively to it's present state of excitement. Not that simpler, er? :-) Example then. Let's say we have a picture on a display. It has a logo of 30% of black on the background of, say, 70% of black. The difference of brightness (or the energy output) is 40%, which creates a slight possibility of developing burn-in over an extended period of time. Now, let's turn up brightness of the screen by 20%. What we'll have is a logo that is 10% black and a background that is 50% black. The difference is still 40%, the possibility of burn-in is the same, but a possibility of image retention (which is really an alltogether different thing) increases significantly.

I recommend that you re-read my previous post. What you call
BRIGHTNESS does not increase brightness. It controls black
level. In your example, increasing BRIGHTNESS will increase light
output on the black background but not on the lighter logo.
Electronically, what BRIGHTNESS does is set black threshold.
'Brightness' is a misnomer. It's actually a black level control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fogey View Post

What's contrast? It's the difference between the lightest and darkest areas on a display screen.

Indirectly. CONTRAST affects the white areas of the picture and
not the dark ones. Electronically, it's a picture level control.
CONTRAST is a misnomer. It's actually a white level control.

The bottom line: Decreasing BRIGHTNESS increases contrast. Not
by much, but if your aim is to evenly wear the screen, it's
better to leave it alone for the break in duration. Just my $0.02.

-- Ron
post #2946 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by ron12n View Post


BRIGHTNESS does not increase brightness. It controls black
level. In your example, increasing BRIGHTNESS will increase light
output on the black background but not on the lighter logo.
Electronically, what BRIGHTNESS does is set black threshold.
'Brightness' is a misnomer. It's actually a black level control.

Seems like examples do not work either sometimes. ;-) Well, if you did read what I had written you'd find that I said that brightness affects every pixel, including logo (What we'll have is a logo that is 10% black and a background that is 50% black.) So, from examples to pictures. Pic. 1 is a normal picture. Pic 2 is a picture with cranked up brightness - as you may see, black bars become lighter as well as light regions of picture. The difference between them remains more or less the same. Pic 3 is a cranked up contrast - black bars are very black, whites - very white. If we agree, that a main reason of burn-in is uneven ageing of phosphors, pic. 3 is much, much, more dangerous, because in these conditions the center of the screen will age much faster then the areas covered by black bars. The same is appliable to bright logos.
LL
LL
LL
post #2947 of 2990
a few people have mentioned that recent findings state that best conditions for
breaking in a display are to have settings at normal (contrast levels).
could someone elaborate on this please
whats the theory behind that?
also where is best place to purchase avia calibration disk
thankyou for any response it is appreciated
post #2948 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by fogey View Post

Seems like examples do not work either sometimes. ;-) Well, if you did read what I had written you'd find that I said that brightness affects every pixel, including logo (What we'll have is a logo that is 10% black and a background that is 50% black.) So, from examples to pictures. Pic. 1 is a normal picture. Pic 2 is a picture with cranked up brightness - as you may see, black bars become lighter as well as light regions of picture. The difference between them remains more or less the same. Pic 3 is a cranked up contrast - black bars are very black, whites - very white. If we agree, that a main reason of burn-in is uneven ageing of phosphors, pic. 3 is much, much, more dangerous, because in these conditions the center of the screen will age much faster then the areas covered by black bars. The same is appliable to bright logos.

Well, I guess we are nearing violent agreement . All
I was saying was that increasing BRIGHTNESS (actually,
black level), affects dark areas more than lighted areas.
You can see that clearly in your 2.jpg -- but please
compare to 1.jpg carefully (say, change in the dark
seat covers vs. change in the man's shirt).

-- Ron
post #2949 of 2990
anyone?
post #2950 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by ron12n View Post

Well, I guess we are nearing violent agreement . All
I was saying was that increasing BRIGHTNESS (actually,
black level), affects dark areas more than lighted areas.
You can see that clearly in your 2.jpg -- but please
compare to 1.jpg carefully (say, change in the dark
seat covers vs. change in the man's shirt).

-- Ron

Yeah, an agreement is nigh My eyes aren't so reliable, so instead I opened both pictures (1 & 2) in Photoshop and measured the levels of gray (K) on the shirt and on the seat covers, to be able to compare the gain of brightness. I've got:
K=37 - The color of the collar of the man's shirt in #1
K=5 - The color of the collar of the man's shirt in #2
K=92 - The color of the dark seat in #1
K=57 - The color of the dark seat in #2.

37-5=32,
92-57=35.
The difference in negligible and can be explained by erorrors in locating the same points in the different pictures. As we see, correlation's the same: turning up brightness affects both blacks and whites and in fact - every pixel on the screen. But even if it would affect dark areas more than lighted areas, as you say, it'd be one more reason to not to worry - dark areas become brighter, closer to the lighted, the phosphors age even more uniformely, burn-in becomes less possible.
post #2951 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpg21 View Post

Hey guys, I've a quick question:
What would be worse for a plasma tv: watching a 2hr plus movie with black bars top/bottom or, watching lets say, a 3hrs football game with a couple of big logos?

Burn-up-wise it would be the same - too short a time to develop it. Image retention-wise, logos are much worse, especially on new plasmas. If your plasma has 200+ hours on it, you shouldn't worry too much. If less - turn down contrast as much as it's still comfortable during a football game.
post #2952 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by fogey View Post

[......]
But even if [Brightness] would affect dark areas more than lighted areas, as you say, it'd be one
more reason to not to worry - dark areas become brighter, closer to the lighted, the phosphors
age even more uniformely, burn-in becomes less possible.

Yep, that's exactly what I was saying.

-- Ron
post #2953 of 2990
Is there any scientific evidence that suggests one should employ a 200 hour break-in period on a modern plasma display?
post #2954 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by politzer View Post

BTW, you might find the Panasonic CS rep's comments amusing. When asked how to avoid this happening, he suggested changing the channel every 10 - 15 minutes. Yeah, right.

What???
post #2955 of 2990
Is the TV manufacturer or the TV content provider responsible for burn-in?

Why do the TV stations and TV Show producers put up static images (logos, scrolling info bars, and other graphics) that will burn in any phosphor based TV? Aren't they aware of the problem?
post #2956 of 2990
How long does it take for IR or Burn-in to get bad? I'm looking at a new Panny but I'd estimate normal usage will be:

60% SD/HD content
30% Video games
10% DVD viewing

I'm sure with Halo3 coming out soon I'm going to have 2-4 hours a day during the week and 6-10 hour a day marathons on the weekends. Will this be a problem?
post #2957 of 2990
Blu Ray/HD DVD with 1.85:1 aspect ration will fill up the full screen of a HD plasma

Will popping in a DVD with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio...fill up the whole HD plasma sreen also?

Thanks again
post #2958 of 2990
I just bought a sanyo 50 inch plasma tv about two months ago. I noticed a few days ago that the "espn hd" logo was still in the lower right hand corner of the screen. i have done all suggested troubleshooting for this: i.e. white-washing, running full-screen colorful shows for a few hours, etc. the image has faded significantly; but i can still see that it is there. any more suggestions; if not i'm returning it this weekend; i was not a happy customer. also; i never watched a show on espn with that logo in the corner for more than a couple of hours. This just seems rather absurd to me. Thanks for any suggestions.
post #2959 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bankie View Post

How long does it take for IR or Burn-in to get bad? I'm looking at a new Panny but I'd estimate normal usage will be:

60% SD/HD content
30% Video games
10% DVD viewing

I'm sure with Halo3 coming out soon I'm going to have 2-4 hours a day during the week and 6-10 hour a day marathons on the weekends. Will this be a problem?

I would think you are going to be okay if you do a proper breakin. Keep the settings down low for the first 100 - 200 hours (especially with the gaming). Also, if you can, turn down the level/increase transparancy of the HUD. If you put other content on the TV for a bit after each session, you should be fine.
post #2960 of 2990
I haven't been following this thread recently so I apologize if this is well known.

About 6 months ago I bought a used 32 inch Visio LCD TV from a friend and gave it to my wife's folks. They mostly watch SD cable channels so I set it up for standard TV and 4:3 mode.

Last night we were over there and I switched to an HD channel. I was amazed to see this vertical purple line right at the right hand edge of the 4:3 area. It was about 1 pixel wide in the center and several wide near the top. It was not visible in a bright white background nor in a black background. It was on the right hand side only.

Very strange.

If it were not for the fact it was second hand, I would be after Visio to fix it. Obviously a defective screen or electronics.
post #2961 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrasher8 View Post

Blu Ray/HD DVD with 1.85:1 aspect ration will fill up the full screen of a HD plasma

Will popping in a DVD with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio...fill up the whole HD plasma sreen also?

Thanks again

yup...it'll fill the screen
post #2962 of 2990
Read about 40 pages of this thread. But cannot find the answer I'm looking for. I just sprung for the Samsung LN-T4681 LCD. Thing looked far and away the best LCD I have ever seen. I know Plamas take extra care for break-in period and prevention of burn in. However do the same rule apply to modern LCD. Supposedly this tv has a ridiculous contrast ratio of 500,000:1, 120Hz, smart LED tech. Do I need to be concerned about burn and breaking it in. I already dialed both Contrast and Brightness below 50 and took it out of Vivid mode. Anyone?

Thanks and happy viewing!

Brian
post #2963 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by muahman View Post

Do I need to be concerned about burn and breaking it in.
Brian

No.
post #2964 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by muahman View Post

Read about 40 pages of this thread. But cannot find the answer I'm looking for. I just sprung for the Samsung LN-T4681 LCD. Thing looked far and away the best LCD I have ever seen. I know Plamas take extra care for break-in period and prevention of burn in. However do the same rule apply to modern LCD. Supposedly this tv has a ridiculous contrast ratio of 500,000:1, 120Hz, smart LED tech. Do I need to be concerned about burn and breaking it in. I already dialed both Contrast and Brightness below 50 and took it out of Vivid mode. Anyone?

Thanks and happy viewing!

Brian

LCD TVs don't suffer from burn-in at all. The have entirely different set of problems, including stuck or dead pixels, but the levels of brightness and contrast do not cause neither of these. So don't worry and enjoy your set.
post #2965 of 2990
Last week Public TV presented "The War" in two hour sessions over five or more days and which had a lot of black and white images. I also have lots of old Laser Discs in black and white.

Any opinion as to whether watching b&w images for extended periods would contribute to plasma burn in.
post #2966 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezstreit1 View Post

Last week Public TV presented "The War" in two hour sessions over five or more days and which had a lot of black and white images. I also have lots of old Laser Discs in black and white.

Any opinion as to whether watching b&w images for extended periods would contribute to plasma burn in.

B&w would actually alleviate burn-in, if you are unfortunate enough to have it on your plasma :-) Seriously - there's no harm in watching black and white. Some people actually use analogue white noise (which is nothing more than random b&w pattern) to get rid of image retentions.
post #2967 of 2990
Quote:
Originally Posted by s2mikey View Post

Correct, the "HD Theater" version only pops the logo up here and there and its very transparent.

I am not sure that is entirely correct. I have just watched the Jeff Corwin experience on Discovery HD Theater and the logo was there the whole time. I see it continously on Sunrise Earth as well.
post #2968 of 2990
Awesome thread - just spent awhile reading through.
post #2969 of 2990
A few posts back, there is a question / reply that LCD screens don't suffer from burn-in. That was my understanding after doing research for a recent purchase. I just bought a Samsung LN-T5265F LCD flat panel a few days ago. Inside the front cover of the Owner's Manual, though, is a big warning about burn in!

So what's the deal with this? Was I misinformed about burn-in issues on LCDs?

Thanks.
post #2970 of 2990
FYI, found another thread that seems to address my question.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=913043

Thanks.
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