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What players support 480i over DVI-D or HDMI? - Page 2

post #31 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri1270 View Post

I don't think the Sony 3100ES does 480i over HDMI - it's not listed in the options anyway. Is there a hack for it or something?

You have the player? If so, I'll remove it from the list until proven otherwise. Also, I assume you are connected to a HDMI display.

larry
post #32 of 239
Any chance the Sony changer does this?

DVP-CX995V
post #33 of 239
I do have the player Larry, I just bought it a few days ago. I'm connected through component, but I've gone through the set-up options thoroughly, and the only HDMI output options listed on screen and in the manual are:

Auto
1920x1080i
1280x720p
720x480p

There is a note in the manual that states: "To force the system to switch to interlace when "PROGRESSIVE" is selected..."

However, that note is clearly in the Component Out section of the manual. Unfortunately I can't test it to see if it applies to the HDMI, but I would seriously doubt it.
post #34 of 239
Thanks, we'll go with a "no".

larry
post #35 of 239
my mistake on the 3100es. I have the player but its also operating in component not HDMI. According to the sony support site:
» digital video upconversion
» selectable 480p/720p/1080i output via HDMI digital interface (separate adapter available for TVs with DVI input)
post #36 of 239
No problem, Mav.

larry
post #37 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by asagarra View Post

100 player!!

Sorry for this dummy question but.. :

576i is standard DVD format for PAL discs, right? If the player only reads the sample from the disc and outputs it through a digital HDMI output, no option for loss seems to be possible, IS THAT CORRECT?

So, in case using an external scaler and a hq amp for sound, is there any reason for spending more than 100 in a player?? I guess there is, I must be missing quite a few points.

Would any dummies evangelist pls throw a bit of light to my brain darkness..??

This is a very useful sticky thread.

There are several processes that a DVD player typically performs, not necessarily in this order:

0. Video is recorded as interlaced YCbCr 4:2:0 (compressed Horiz & Vert chroma)
1. The MPEG decoder de-multiplexes the stored data stream into the separate audio and video channels.
2. The MPEG decoder also up-converts to YCbCr 4:2:2 (compressed H only)
3. The player performs up-conversion to YCbCr 4:4:4 (no chroma compression).
4. Interlaced component may be de-interlaced to progressive.
5. Video processing may be applied - filtering, colour, contrast, sharpening etc.
6. Component is D to A converted, buffered and filtered for analogue output.
7. Progressive component may be up-scaled to 720p etc.
8. Component is transcoded from YCbCr 4:4:4 to RGB 4:4:4.
9. Upscaled progressive RGB is output by HDMI.

A "pure" HDMI digital video output may come in lots of different flavours:
1. Upscaled RGB ("worst")
2. Progressive RGB
3. Interlaced RGB
4. Interlaced YCbCr 4:4:4
5. Interlaced YCbCr 4:2:2 ("best" - same as SDI)

So it's not quite so simple to say that interlaced video is what you want, but that is the most important process that you want the scaler to perform instead of the player. However, the closer you can get to raw data off the disc the better. SDI is the best interface, but even that has been through one up-conversion process (which is prone to chroma bugs!). That's why you always want a player with a good MPEG decoder.

BR, Nick
post #38 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

4. Interlaced YCbCr 4:4:4
5. Interlaced YCbCr 4:2:2 ("best" - same as SDI)

Nick,

Will 4:4:4 sampled video look worse than 4:2:2? You'd think the more samples taken the better the image quality would be. Yet I know 4:2:2 is the choice for many pro video applications, so apparently that's not the case.

Or is 4:4:4 only superior "on paper", and not used because the difference in quality is not worth the extra bandwidth cost?

The reason I ask is I'm trying to understand if an SDI mod'd player might be superior to a 480i HDMI player that is YCbCr 4:4:4.

Thanks.

/steve
post #39 of 239
The only reason I can see upsampling to YCbCr 4:4:4 is for easy conversion to RGB 4:4:4 or analog output. There's only 4:2:0 on the disc, everything else is "made up". Certain video processing chips may only take YCbCr 4:4:4 - another reason to upsample.

larry
post #40 of 239
Which players output 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 over HDMI?

My Sigmatek XMB-510 output 4:4:4.

Nacho.
post #41 of 239
At a minimum, 8bit 4:2:2 comes from the MPEG decoder. For 480i, it really doesn't matter if it's 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. For 480p and higher, the Denon 5910 and Pio 79avi definitely do 10bit YCbCr 4:2:2 via HDMI. I would hope the Marantz 9600 and Classe CDP 300 would too. I'm not sure about some of the other popular players like the Denon 3910, Pio 59avi, etc.

larry
post #42 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachin View Post

Which players output 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 over HDMI?

I believe the Sony DVP-NS975V outputs 4:2:2 over HDMI at 480I. I'm pretty sure that is what the VP30 I have connected to it reported. Would have to check to be positive. It definitely wasn't 4:4:4.
post #43 of 239
My 975 outputed RGB via HDMI with HD+.
post #44 of 239
Firstly, NOTHING outputs YCbCr 4:2:0; not even the MPEG decoder.

No Denon DVDs output native interlaced video over DVI / HDMI.

4:2:2 is preferred to 4:4:4 in the context of scalers so that the up-conversion can be performed by the scaler rather than the player. I believe many scalers process video as YCbCr 4:2:2, so this format will reduce undesirable digital conversion stages, as well as analogue.

Therefore an SDI feed to a scaler will almost certainly be better than HDMI 4:4:4.

A few DVDs can output interlaced native digital YCbCr 4:2:2. I know the Arcam DV79. Pioneer 79AVi and Marantz 9600 certainly can, and I believe the upcoming Oppo OPDV970H will be able to, as well. Some of them do good audio, too, and the Marantz does SACD over iLink, as well as 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2. Nice.

Nick
post #45 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

[...] and I believe the upcoming Oppo OPDV970H will be able to, as well. [...]

Actually, one of the reasons for my post was that in response to my query, Oppo customer service said the 970h will probably output YCbCr 4:4:4. I'm not sure if that's a design decision on Oppo's part, or perhaps a Mediatek requirement. I didn't ask and they didn't mention whether the bit depth would be 8 or 10.

I'm trying to find the best fit for the AVM II processor/scaler already built-in to my Fujitsu XHAP5040US display. AVM II currently does an amazing job with analog 480i over component. Picture quality is indistinguishable, to my eyes, to upconverting players I've tried (including the Oppo 971H) at 720p or 1080i. I'm just wondering if PQ might surpass them, given the right 480i digital signal?

/steve
post #46 of 239
For 480i output 8bit YCbCr 4:4:4 is fine. AFA the P50 is concerned, there's no need to feed it anything other than 480i or 480p. With my older P50/10, 480p from a Silicon Image deinterlacer does a better job for DVDs.

larry
post #47 of 239
Assuming the 971H is [arguably] the "state of the art" for upconverting players, I have to say I was pleasantly surprised at how well the AVM-II scaler performed when I A/B'd the Oppo 480i component signal vs. 720p/1080i DVI, using DVE test patterns and video segments. They were so close, at times I forgot which one I was looking at! I guess Fujitsu has improved the scaler with each succeeding generation.

/steve
post #48 of 239
been searching for the sony for the past few days with no luck... doesn't seem to be available anymore... (new or refurb)
post #49 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post

My LG LDA-511 will output 480i over HDMI, as my projector confirms that it receives a 480i signal.

HEH,

My LG LDA-511 will output 1080i over HDMI
post #50 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeener71 View Post

HEH,

My LG LDA-511 will output 1080i over HDMI

?? let's stay on topic, especially for a sticky please!

This thread is about 480i over digital (so you can use the DVD player as a perfect transport for a scaler, with no deinterlacing, etc being done prior to the scaler).
post #51 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachin View Post

I can confirm now that the SiGMATek XMB-510 do 480i/576i over HDMI output.
Nacho.

Does it have HDCP protection on 480i/576i ?
post #52 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted_b View Post

?? let's stay on topic, especially for a sticky please!

This thread is about 480i over digital (so you can use the DVD player as a perfect transport for a scaler, with no deinterlacing, etc being done prior to the scaler).

Ted:

Actually, the thread is about 480i over DVI-D and HDMI. Period.

It is not stated in the sticky nor should it be inferred that anyone would be able to "use the DVD player as a perfect transport" just because you are using the digital output at 480i. That would be more like SDI, but that isn't through DVD-D or HDMI.

It will be unlikely to get a pure MPEG bit stream out of any current DVD player because they are performing processing of the MPEG bit stream before it even leaves the player. There seems to be some misunderstanding that the processing takes place after the signal is de-interlaced. This is not so. DVD players perform many steps of picture enhancement before the signal is de-interlaced.

All you can hope for is an interlaced digital stream that has not had too much processing and that has not passed through a D/A converter. 480i should not be thought of as a "perfect transport" digital steam. That would exist only if the manufacturer wanted to output a SDI-like signal. They don't, for the most part. They want to output what they think will be the best looking processed 480i signal.

I use 480i HDMI to an outboard processor and think it is a great idea, but I think I would be misleading someone if I told them my Pioneer 59 or 79 was a perfect transport because I know it is doing a lot of processing before the signal leaves the player. Pioneers' "Digital Direct" setting is not pure MPEG! I don't know about other DVD players but I suspect they are not out-putting a pure MPEG digital bit stream.

Which DVD player does the least amount of processing of the 480i signal would be a great topic for another thread. What I would like to know is this: What manufacturer is out-putting a pure MPEG bit stream?

Rick
post #53 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Green View Post

Ted:

Actually, the thread is about 480i over DVI-D and HDMI. Period.

It is not stated in the sticky nor should it be inferred that anyone would be able to "use the DVD player as a perfect transport" just because you are using the digital output at 480i. That would be more like SDI, but that isn't through DVD-D or HDMI.

It will be unlikely to get a pure MPEG bit stream out of any current DVD player because they are performing processing of the MPEG bit stream before it even leaves the player. There seems to be some misunderstanding that the processing takes place after the signal is de-interlaced. This is not so. DVD players perform many steps of picture enhancement before the signal is de-interlaced.

All you can hope for is an interlaced digital stream that has not had too much processing and that has not passed through a D/A converter. 480i should not be thought of as a "perfect transport" digital steam. That would exist only if the manufacturer wanted to output a SDI-like signal. They don't, for the most part. They want to output what they think will be the best looking processed 480i signal.

I use 480i HDMI to an outboard processor and think it is a great idea, but I think I would be misleading someone if I told them my Pioneer 59 or 79 was a perfect transport because I know it is doing a lot of processing before the signal leaves the player. Pioneers' "Digital Direct" setting is not pure MPEG! I don't know about other DVD players but I suspect they are not out-putting a pure MPEG digital bit stream.

Which DVD player does the least amount of processing of the 480i signal would be a great topic for another thread. What I would like to know is this: What manufacturer is out-putting a pure MPEG bit stream?

Rick


My comment was less about "perfect" and more about the "1080i over HDMI" post....wayyyyyy off topic. Yeah, an SDI mod is definitely at a subparticle level, where 480i over HDMi is more macro, but not what I was reacting to. Sorry if I technically said the word "perfect"; it's not.
post #54 of 239
Ted:

I understood that your post was more about the 1080i comment which was a good call. I was also being a little too focused on your "perfect transport" wording. I just get tired of what I precieve as misleading statements from manufacturers and other review sites that make "480I over HDMI" to be some sort of perfect transport solution. For the most part, I think it is 480i without D/A conversion. They are still processing the signal.

Rick
post #55 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Green View Post

All you can hope for is an interlaced digital stream that has not had too much processing and that has not passed through a D/A converter.

Forgive my ignorance, but in this respect, exactly how does 480i digital via HDMI differ from 480i via SDI? What extra conversions are taking place in the HDMI scenario?
post #56 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluciani View Post

Forgive my ignorance, but in this respect, exactly how does 480i digital via HDMI differ from 480i via SDI? What extra conversions are taking place in the HDMI scenario?

Color coding (RGB vs YUV), i think SDI is the original format from the mpeg decoder i.e. YUV as coded on the DVD, while HDMI -i think- is transcoded to RGB.

Also HDMI could have added HDCP protection while SDI is always "cleartext"
post #57 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluciani View Post

Forgive my ignorance, but in this respect, exactly how does 480i digital via HDMI differ from 480i via SDI? What extra conversions are taking place in the HDMI scenario?

Go into the 59avi thread and look for the posts (near the end) that "csuddborn" (I can't remember Carl's AVS name - it's something like that). Check out the settings that the 59avi needs to have set to output the correct digital data from the color test patterns in AVIA Pro. SDI is about the only way to guarantee you are getting *decoded* MPEG from the MPEG decoder (I'm nitting Rick's post above mentioning MPEG raw bits - he may have meant raw YCbCr 4:2:2. MPEG decoders decode the MPEG and upsample the YCbCr 4:2:0 to 4:2:2).

larry
post #58 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

...he may have meant raw YCbCr 4:2:2. MPEG decoders decode the MPEG and upsample the YCbCr 4:2:0 to 4:2:2).

larry

I was not even thinking of that as a type of processing that I was concerned with. I would be happy with only one conversion which up-samples to YCbCr 4:2:2, which is not quite raw bits, you are right. But, after that the player is doing quite a bit of processing of the 480i data. My wish would be for just the 4:2:2 conversion and then out the door to my processor.
post #59 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Green View Post

I was not even thinking of that as a type of processing that I was concerned with. I would be happy with only one conversion which up-samples to YCbCr 4:2:2, which is not quite raw bits, you are right. But, after that the player is doing quite a bit of processing of the 480i data. My wish would be for just the 4:2:2 conversion and then out the door to my processor.

Yes, I know what you meant but I just wanted to make sure others didn't get the wrong idea and knew what the minimum that has to be done. Some MPEG decoders still don't do the 4:2:0 -> 4:2:2 upsample correctly. I'm not opposed to some processing on the 480i stream as long as it's done correctly - i.e chroma filters and the like. Although with SDI you can just let the external scaler do the filtering and everthing else. It will be interesting to see what the new Oppo does with 480i via HDMI.

larry
post #60 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Green View Post

But, after that the player is doing quite a bit of processing of the 480i data. My wish would be for just the 4:2:2 conversion and then out the door to my processor.

If what you're talking about are things like additional circuitry for contrast, color, sharpness, NR and other controls, I see what you mean. One would hope in a well-engineered player, though, that setting these controls to "flat" or "off" might make such circuitry transparent.

Oppo, hope you're reading this!
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