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darin's contrast ratio thread - Page 2  

post #31 of 754
Ok, if I had $10K and already have CRT in my life why would I be deemed insane for not buying a used G90 vs. buying something digital instead?

No, I am not asking for myself, but for anyone that fits this bill.
post #32 of 754
OK, I'll bite. Around that price the Sony Ruby seems to be the main digital competitor for a G90.

- warranty
- ease of use
- 1080P. I know the G90 will do it, but would still need a pretty good setup to do it justice.
- brightness
- digital signal path
- low sound level
- no convergance


Just a few points of the top of my head.
post #33 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semisentient
OK, I'll bite. Around that price the Sony Ruby seems to be the main digital competitor for a G90.

- warranty
- ease of use
- 1080P. I know the G90 will do it, but would still need a pretty good setup to do it justice.
- brightness
- digital signal path
- low sound level
- no convergance


Just a few points of the top of my head.
So, from this the ignorant should take away from your points that the G90:

- Needs a warranty
- Complex to use
- Is dim, even compared to a 500-hour G90 vs. Ruby condition
- The digital input card is urban legend and not a realty
- Too loud
- Has convergence issues

I read your words and intereted as such.
post #34 of 754
I'm always interested to read why people want super bright sets. To me, anything over 600 lumens is plenty bright, and anything substantially over 1200-1300 lumens is too bright in a true 'theatre' situation.

If you're putting a 3000 lumen digital into a bright living room, I'd hardly call that a 'theatre'/

Curt
post #35 of 754
Quote:
OK, I'll bite. Around that price the Sony Ruby seems to be the main digital competitor for a G90.

- warranty
- ease of use
- 1080P. I know the G90 will do it, but would still need a pretty good setup to do it justice.
- brightness
- digital signal path
- low sound level
- no convergance


Just a few points of the top of my head.
These are valid points, but I think they can be worked around. The key in my opinion is buying the G90 from a good reseller. I plan on buying a G90 in the near future, and I plan on using Terry. The way I see it is this:

warranty- a good reseller will work with you after the sell to fix any problems.
I know it is not the same as a factory warranty, but I am more than
happy to have Terry work on my unit in house. I know he won't
be satisfied until the job is done right, and he has always been
entirely reasonable in regards to price.

ease of use- with a good setup, I think this is a moot point. Even my wife can
operate my current CRT with the Pronto remote.

1080p- I have seen 1080p on my 9" CRT and it is stunning. I know it will be
even better on a G90. Is the Ruby going to be that much better?

brightness- I get 9fl from my current 9" machine and never feel lacking.

digital signal path- This is the only thing that slightly worries me. The HDDVD
dilemma. I am confident though that if HDCP is enacted on
component signals, someone will have a work around.

quietness- my current 9" CRT does not bother me with sound. If it did, I would
build a hushbox.

convergence- All about the setup. I have only touched my convergence once in
the past six months.

I know the digitals are getting really good now, and I think that is great. But as long as we still have machines like the G90 and reliable, experienced resellers like Terry, Curt, and Tim, I am sticking with CRT. Just my .02 cents.
post #36 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
If you're putting a 3000 lumen digital into a bright living room, I'd hardly call that a 'theatre'/ Curt
Actually, considering the PQ of the public theaters maybe the elevated black-level is more easily achieved by using 3,000 lumens. :D
post #37 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
I'm always interested to read why people want super bright sets. To me, anything over 600 lumens is plenty bright,
Curt
I don't really think people want "super bright' projectors. It's just after seeing a digital ( any digital) Most CRT looks pretty dim. My friend just bought a Sanyo Z1 so I helped him make a mount and install it. The actual PQ is not something I could live with but the relatively low brightness ( around 350-400 LU-according to HC) for a digital still spanks any CRT I've owned. I honestly thought there was something wrong with my Marquee when I turned it on after watching the Z1.

I do not like a super bright image but PQ a side, more brightness with good PQ is better than less brightness with good PQ. I often wish my Marquee was just a little brighter.
post #38 of 754
I reemmber when a friend brought over his old NEC XGA-based business projector. He wanted to see what it would look like with an HD source I had setup in a room with a 7" air-coupled CRT projector and fairly good control of ambient lighting.

I remember the added brightness made the colors seem more punchy (saturated) and also remembered this was common in an LCD projector. It was an in your face wow experience for me. Unfortunately, I couldn't watch a lot of my favorite movies without killing > 50% of the brightness because of the high black level.

Now take that experience with another experience that followed several months later with the Sony HS51. A much better experience (higher contrast, lower black-level), but this was achieved, to a major extent in the brightness being much lower.

I guess what really bothered me regarding the process of going from a Sony D50 to spending up to $10K on a digital was that a person doing this felt nothing 'in between' a D50 and G90 was worthy enought to spend even $4K on (thinking 8" LC projector, here).
post #39 of 754
I am in a similar dilemma and really would like to be convinced to make the move to digital. My M8500 (granted, that's no G90) throws a beautiful picture but I'm just tired of dealing with that huge monster and its associated quirks (like things breaking down).

However, I don't think I'm willing to spend $10k on a replacement, either. More like $5k tops. Also, with the Ruby the $10k is only the beginning - you also need a scaler. My Faroudja is currently fixed at 720p.

So far, its not real encouraging for me being able to make the move to digital - but, since I still have several months before my room will be ready, maybe time will help me out.
post #40 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinx
I do not like a super bright image but PQ a side, more brightness with good PQ is better than less brightness with good PQ. I often wish my Marquee was just a little brighter.
That's a very odd thing to hear for me personally, I have never wished my 8500 was brighter. I'm running a 84" wide in a dark room with very dark ceiling. Anything above C-37 is uncomfortable IMO. I'm curious as to screen size, tube condition, and light control do you have in your room? I mean if your pushing C to 60/70 or more and it's still not bright enough something is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr
I am in a similar dilemma and really would like to be convinced to make the move to digital. My M8500 (granted, that's no G90) throws a beautiful picture but I'm just tired of dealing with that huge monster and its associated quirks (like things breaking down)
another unusual comment,sssuming the LVPS P14 issue is addressed the Marquee's are extremely reliable. What problems have you had?
post #41 of 754
Two crapped out HVPSs in two years.
post #42 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr
I am in a similar dilemma and really would like to be convinced to make the move to digital...However, I don't think I'm willing to spend $10k on a replacement, either. More like $5k tops. Also, with the Ruby the $10k is only the beginning - you also need a scaler. My Faroudja is currently fixed at 720p.
Sony's price tag on the Ruby is an act of desperation. Sony is currently get its butt kicked in consumer electronics. They are laying off people right and left, etc.

Now, their act of desperation should drive the price of a 720p DLP that used to be $12K (think Sharp, Yamaha, Marantz) down into the $5K range. The Optoma is already in that range (but the H79 started lower priced then the others), but the others will probably join it within a year. Now, can you be happy with one of those instead of an 8" CRT? If so, there is your ticket. I could not be as I've compared them all.

But, the other side of the coin is that the CRT market will likely also respond within a year, so you'll be faced with the dilemma of one of the 720p single chip DLPs for $4K or a 9" CRT for around that amount. Would you really take a 720p single chip over a 9" machine?

Dave
post #43 of 754
I don't think a single chip DLP is ever going to be in my future. Even a single rainbow would make me regret that forever. So, I've gotta hope that LCD gets acceptable blacks or LCOS or 3-chippers come down in price.
post #44 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr
So, I've gotta hope that LCD gets acceptable blacks or LCOS or 3-chippers come down in price.
Depends upon what you consider "acceptable". A dynamic Iris makes the blacks about as good as any digital. The problem with LCD is going to be SDE even with 1080p. I can see the SDE on an HS51 from >2x screen width. I've done the calculation and even if that thing had a 1080p chip, I'd still see the SDE from 1.6x screen width and I like to watch from closer to 1.4x. I think LCD will only be an option for you if you like to sit far away.

Dave
post #45 of 754
You may be right - the SDE also drove me bonkers on the Z3 (I could see it clearly from my second row) - especially in fast moving or panning scenes. The SDE kind of became a motion artifact because, when the image itself had normal motion blur, the only thing in focus was the space between the pixels which made it really stand out.
post #46 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr
Two crapped out HVPSs in two years.
ahh yes, the Marquee's Achille's heel. :( I'm supposed to start work with an EE on redesigning parts of this supply to make it more reliable, but no one wants to send a broken one for the R&D work. I even offered to pay for the shipping. :confused: Well I hope to get one soon, when you think about the original Spellman design is 12 years old now there's got to be room for major improvement.
post #47 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
There may be other issues, but SDE even at 720p isn't one of them.
I'm guessing the "other issues" is enough to keep him out of one, but I could be wrong.
post #48 of 754
Actually, its just black level and SDE that are the big drawbacks for me. With the Z3 I can clearly see pixels from my second row almost 2x screen width back - especially on motion scenes. A whole bunch of people have said the same thing as darin - that they don't see any SDE - but I'm not one of those people.

I haven't tested out DLPs (or better LCDs than the Z3) so I was hoping they were better on those issues.
post #49 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr
A whole bunch of people have said the same thing as darin - that they don't see any SDE - but I'm not one of those people.
Darin was only saying that about the AE900--not other LCDs. I can see SDE like a madman, but I will admit that I don't really see it from 1.5x with the Panny. However, something about the Panny picture lacks punch, vibrancy, and depth to me.

The AE900 has what panny calls their "smooth screen" technology. Really, it is a lens that introduces a seperation and blur so that the SDE is minimized. Think of it as trying to simulate the natural gaussian blur of a CRT spot and you are pretty close. They actually have less SDE than a 720p DLP.

You could go check one out and see if you like them. They are cheap--that's for sure.

Dave
post #50 of 754
One other thing ebr which may or may not be a deal killer. Assuming you don't like judder in your film viewing, good luck finding one of these cheap digital PJs that will do 72 Hz!

Dave
post #51 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrighthenry
These are valid points, but I think they can be worked around. The key in my opinion is buying the G90 from a good reseller. I plan on buying a G90 in the near future, and I plan on using Terry. The way I see it is this:

warranty- a good reseller will work with you after the sell to fix any problems.
I know it is not the same as a factory warranty, but I am more than
happy to have Terry work on my unit in house. I know he won't
be satisfied until the job is done right, and he has always been
entirely reasonable in regards to price.
yes and no - if I was lucky enough to live within an hour or two of one of the well-known and respected resellers, for sure - I would take Curt, Terry, or anyone I am forgetting, over Sony or Sanyo tech support.

But for some reason, by living in the middle of America, rather than having an advantage of being centrally located, instead I am equidistant from everyone :(
I am semi-technically capable, but I wouldn't want to get in a part swapping, long-distance diagnosis of a crt problem. Having a unit that can be CHEAPLY boxed and shipped to a service center has to count for something. - not to mention the hot swap warrantys that some mfgrs now have.

That doesn't mean I am dumping my 980, nor does it mean I won't buy a nice 9" if they get in my price range, but warranty and ease of service can be a valid consideration.
post #52 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingvee
Having a unit that can be CHEAPLY boxed and shipped to a service center has to count for something. - not to mention the hot swap warrantys that some mfgrs now have.
I think this is only true for the people that absolutely positively don't want to do anything themselves. I'm not by any of the techs, but diagnostic procedures have not been too hard for me to do, nor are board swaps. In fact, most part swaps are pretty easy.

I agree that is it off-putting to many, but it need not be. If you are willing to put in the effort and do a full set up, then the effort for diagnostic and repair isn't that much worse.

Dave
post #53 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
There may be other issues, but SDE even at 720p isn't one of them.
I just reread this, were you talking about PQ issues or the fun issues the owners get to live with like dust blobs and stuck pixels?

Dave
post #54 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I saw an AE900 the other day
OT here, and I'll try to check the threads "over there", but did you get a chance to tell if they fixed the vertical banding issues of the 700?

Dave
post #55 of 754
So what's better, crt's or digitals?
post #56 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by raster
So what's better, crt's or digitals?
Digitals. WAY, WAY better. Here's about nine hundred for you to pick from:
http://search.*********/search/searc...trypage=search
post #57 of 754
I can't view Digital threads in the CRT forum. It's against the rules.
You trying to get me into trouble? :mad:




Quote:
Originally Posted by jtnfoley
Digitals. WAY, WAY better. Here's about nine hundred for you to pick from:
http://search.*********/search/searc...trypage=search
post #58 of 754
Well, this discussion has probably gone about as far as it can (for my purposes) at this time without degrading into the topic that raster threw out there :). So, thanks everyone for their insight and experience.

I'll have to be sure I build the room to accomodate another CRT so I can go either way when the time comes. (looks like I'm probably staying on the dark side but who knows what may happen in several months).
post #59 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by raster
I can't view Digital threads in the CRT forum. It's against the rules.
You trying to get me into trouble? :mad:

Yep :D
post #60 of 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFerret
So, from this the ignorant should take away from your points that the G90:

- Needs a warranty
- Complex to use
- Is dim, even compared to a 500-hour G90 vs. Ruby condition
- The digital input card is urban legend and not a realty
- Too loud
- Has convergence issues

I read your words and intereted as such.

Jeez, you ask for reasons, then when you get them you lambast me? I didn't say that these points outweigh the virtues of a G90. I do maintain they are valid points. I spent the evening watching my 1292. Maybe you should spend more time watching your projector and less implying things from innocuous answers to a question you posed! :(

James
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