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Wharfedale Owners Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 1291
Hey ice, first the breaking and biwire questions. Yes, they break in over 100-200 hours of use. They will open up some. As for biwiring, I think it's terrible. Check this out : http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html
The phasing issues introduced produces that "airy treble" everyone goes ga-ga over. The problem is, not all music is supposed to sound that way! I found that things got much crisper and cleaner when I went back to single wiring, and even better with single wiring at lower gauge. The scientist in me has to say also that I noticed the audible artifact as such and became unhappy with biwiring after listening to a variety of music, and only then found the article to explain exactly what I was noticing.

I've noticed that satisfaction with the EVOs goes up with increasing power. It looks like you've got 75W/ch. I've got mine running off of a Yamaha HTR-5960, 110W/ch. But I can tell the difference at loud volumes if I run my receiver on the 6Ohm setting (which limits power delivery). So even 110W is not "saturating" the speakers with power. I'd be interested to see what the EVOs sound like on a couple of monoblocks at 200W.
post #62 of 1291
Dr. Slippery, I know that the maximum wattage number is just that, max power. You don't want to drive your speakers with constant (i.e. RMS) power exceeding that number. For example, any amp up to 200W RMS is OK, but you don't want to put a 1000W amp on it.

I'm not as confident about the minimum number. Generally speaking, you rarely deliver more than 1W RMS to your speakers unless you listen to them at ridiculous volumes. It's the peak power that is likely what they want you to have a reserve of. I think they say "40W minimum" so you hook them to an adequate amp that will sound at least passably good. This would also help to prevent clipping damage to the tweeters and gives them a safeguard against too many warranty claims from fools trying to push 100dB with a No-name 10W piece of crap receiver.
post #63 of 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Element View Post

Hey ice, first the breaking and biwire questions. Yes, they break in over 100-200 hours of use. They will open up some. As for biwiring, I think it's terrible. Check this out : http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html
The phasing issues introduced produces that "airy treble" everyone goes ga-ga over. The problem is, not all music is supposed to sound that way! I found that things got much crisper and cleaner when I went back to single wiring, and even better with single wiring at lower gauge. The scientist in me has to say also that I noticed the audible artifact as such and became unhappy with biwiring after listening to a variety of music, and only then found the article to explain exactly what I was noticing..

Would that apply to the Wharfedale Evo and Opus series? I mean, Wharfedale claims their crossovers are designed to be bi-wired. Is that even technically possible, to design a crossover specifically to perform at it's best when bi-wired?

I'll have to give single wire a chance with my Opus 2 and see what it sounds like, see if there's any audible improvements and degration.
post #64 of 1291
I would say it applies to any passive crossover system. The whole point of the crossover is to take a load (signal), split it into 2 separate loads (bass and treble), send it to respective speakers (on time, so it produces sound in phase), then re-integrate the load on the negative pole return to the amp. If you split the loads, then you take away phase control. Seems like a bad idea. From my experience, it was bad in reality. For example, Norah Jones. Perfect music to make biwire look good, right? Airy, treble-heavy. BUt when I biwired, cymbals in particular sounded muddled. There are tracks where cymbals are being played with wire brushes at the same time that maracas are being shaken. When biwired, this became a mushy, sibilant mess that hurt my ears. Single wired, I could clearly distinguish the two instruments. I noticed similar issues in many different albums and types of music. Not to mention the soundstage was off when biwired. Echo-ey. Hollow. Of course, INHO, YMMV, etc, but I highly encourage you to try fat single wire and see if you like it better.
post #65 of 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Element View Post

Dr. Slippery, I know that the maximum wattage number is just that, max power. You don't want to drive your speakers with constant (i.e. RMS) power exceeding that number. For example, any amp up to 200W RMS is OK, but you don't want to put a 1000W amp on it.

I'm not as confident about the minimum number. Generally speaking, you rarely deliver more than 1W RMS to your speakers unless you listen to them at ridiculous volumes. It's the peak power that is likely what they want you to have a reserve of. I think they say "40W minimum" so you hook them to an adequate amp that will sound at least passably good. This would also help to prevent clipping damage to the tweeters and gives them a safeguard against too many warranty claims from fools trying to push 100dB with a No-name 10W piece of crap receiver.


Thanks R.E.

I think you're saying that they intentionally put a higher "min" wattage to prevent people from jacking up the speakers or using a source that would make them sound like crap. I wonder if that is consistent across the industry, that "min" watage is a "recomendation" by the company as appose to something measurable.

I'm I correct, then, in believing that "min" wattage has 'nothing' to do with how the speakers will perform at low volume levels? I'm looking at the 9.6 for mains in a HT and want something that sounds great at low volume, not just when it's cranked up for Maiden or something.

Thanks again for the reply.

Slip
post #66 of 1291
The HK receivers are known for putting out the actual rated wattage so I think on the power front I'm good - I also just bought it and am quite happy with it so no plans on replacing or adding monoblocks. The HK offered the best value for what I needed, an equivalent Denon was $300 more. My only purchases in the near term are a center channel and perhaps a new turntable & phono stage.

As for tonality - well right now I watch TV and most of the audio comes from a junk center speaker - when I swap to the EVOs it sounds great but the localization is terrible, hence a need for a new center With 2ch music cranked up they do sound pretty good - a lot is the limitation of my condo and the placement of my gear I'm sure. I've got concrete floors & ceilings (10') and the speakers are sorta in a corner... so I know I'm not doing full justice on that front.

They do seem a little more laid back than I think I prefer - my high-end headphones (Grado SR-325i) are pretty "bright" by most folks judgement and I really dig their sound. I probably should have done some listening sessions of various gear but instead just went ahead and bought well regarded gear at blowout pricing (50% of retail on the AVR & speakers).

Aren't the speakers sorta biwired by that jumper plate? Would swapping those plates out for some decent wire make sense - the stuff I had read seemed to imply it was the jumper plate that was the source of sonic degradation that the biwiring "fixed".

In the end this is all a heck of a lot better than the 13yr old Sony mini-system I had until now Just need to replace that horrid center channel still!

Has anyone mixed & matched the EVOs & Opus successfully?
post #67 of 1291
Slippery, you're right, the min watts has absolutely nothing to do with how well the speakers will sound at low volume. I sincerely believe Wharfedale is simply trying to protect their beautiful-sounding-yet-fragile silk tweeters from clipping damage resulting from the use of grossly underpowered amps. Do the Swans have metallic tweeters? If so, they can likely take some clipping punishment.

ice, you're right that the jumper is a kind of biwire, but at the posts. If you have two wires with different loads instead of one carrying the same load, then you get different effects on each line. I replaced my jumpers with wire. Probably a good idea anyway, as copper is a better conductor than gold. Also, once I used 10AWG wire the jumper didn't fit anymore! And no, you're definitely not doing justice to your gear putting them in a corner If you can't move them, perhaps some room treatments?
post #68 of 1291
R.E.

No, Silk as well. Interesting to ponder, however. I can't recall what speakers you stated you have, but I don't believe it was the 9.6's. Do you have an opinion on how they would sound at low volume levels and for HT as appose to music?

Slip
post #69 of 1291
I've got the EVO30's. They sound clear and detailed right down through -50dB. They're honestly good below that too, just too low a volume to be useful in the real world. I listened to the 9.6's as well when I was shopping, and I think they would be similar. Are you shopping for 9.6's? They're great speakers. The only issue I had with them was that they were rear-ported. I didn't want to lock myself into that, as you need a few feet from the rear wall for proper placement.

As for HT, the 9.6 may be a bit better since it has the 3" dome midrange in the fronts and center. Apart from that the EVO and diamonds are pretty similar. Listen to them both if you can. They both have a certain something...very similar, but I could see diamond favoring HT and hard rock, and EVO favoring music generally over HT. But both do each admirably. Either way you will need a sub for deep bass.
post #70 of 1291
R.E.,

Thanks for the input. I'll try to listen to both. Any advice on the best way to demo a less common brand like Wharfedale here in the states? Any idea where I can get some info on the difference between speakers ported in different ways or not ported at all? I think I'll look through some of the theory stuff today.

I was looking at the "rear-ported" aspect of the 9.6. I can't say that I look at it as a plus. My speakers are currently about 14" from the wall. If I brought them two feet out they would stick out past the TV about 6 inches. That wouldn't really be a big deal in terms of space or looks. Does that mess with the sound stage at all if the mains stick out a little more than the center or does that make it better, because they're now the same distance as the center from someone sitting in the sweet spot? (I'm not trying to be OCD. I'm just having fun with the concepts.) LOL

The swan 6.2's are another speaker I'm looking at, and they're front ported. Does that make a difference in sound, or is it just a matter of the extra requirement of more space in the rear?

I am pretty much a noob. I've tried to use logical thinking, however, to make decisions. I've rationalized that a 3-way will be better than a 2-way of the same price range for HT because of the emphasis on dialog and such. Your last post seems to support that line of thinking. Any thoughts on that? Any reason you can see that a front ported speaker would be better than a rear ported, other than having to put one of them farther from the wall?

Thanks for your thoughts. Guys like you really help guys like me who have limited knowledge/experience. Mucho Appreciano.

Slip
post #71 of 1291
You usually want the fronts of all your speakers fairly even with your TV, so the sound seems to come from that area. You can take some liberty of course. Also, getting the fronts past any furniture usually helps imaging (no hard surfaces in the way of the sound).

The issue with rear porting is that the port allows air to escape from the cabinet. Consider it: a speaker is really a device that moves air back and forth, right? IF the port is facing a wall (i.e. rear ported design), then the moving air (mostly bass frequencies) will be aimed right at the wall. This can be good or bad. The wall will tend to reinforce the bass characteristics of the speaker. Think the skin of a bass drum. If the wall does a good job of this, the bass sounds better than it otherwise would. If it doesn't do a good job, well... So rear porting causes you to be stringent in your speaker placement, looking for juist the right spot. Or you move the speaker 3-4 feet out away from the rear wall. Subs can also be rear ported and can cause similar placement problems, so be aware.

3-way can be better than 2-way, but it depends on the quality of the speaker build. It comes back to moving air at the right frequency (pitch) and amount (volume). Multi-way splits the frequencies out to speakers specifically designed to handle them the best. But like I said, the total design and build quality has to come together to make a great speaker. I suggest going with waht sounds most true, rather than "having" to go 3-way.

As for the demo, I got on Wharfedale's website and got IAG AMerica's 1-800 #. Call them and ask for the closest dealers. I got lucky enough to have 2 in my area, and got my setup on clearence from one. You might have similar luck, who knows? Also, compare to Swan if you like those. Paradigm, DefTech, Tannoy and B&W also come to mind as great speakers to listen to. Shop around and have fun with it.

Good luck!
post #72 of 1291
Thanks R.E. I appreciate you being so helpful and informative.

Slip
post #73 of 1291
I am considering getting the Evo 10, Evo Center and Evo 8 for my HT and audio setup.

I will be using it on our bedroom (small room with lower than normal ceiling, converted attic).

The dealer in our area only have the Evo 40, though I have also heard the Evo 30. They have to order the Evo 10 and 8 and I will be buying them without auditioning!

I really like the sound of the Evo 30, though I do not want to get it because of the small room that I will be using.

How different is the sound of the Evo 10 compared to the 30?

I will be using my Denon 1804 for my HT and KT88 Push Pull tube amp for my audio.

Thanks.
post #74 of 1291
THe EVO 10 uses the same woofer as the 30/40s, just one of them though. Rather similar sound, just not as low bass extension. Also not quite as loud as the 30/40s without that extra woofer, but that shouldn't be a problem in a bedroom HT setup. The 8 uses a 5.25" woofer. It's still reasonably musical (good enough for 7.1 music), and certainly good enough for surround duty (that's what I use them for). Alternatively, there are the EVO DFS wall mount dipole surrounds you may want to consider.

I hope this helps.
post #75 of 1291
hi everyone, new to this thread. I am thinking of buying the set of Wharfedale Moviestar 70+ from the reviews on amazon and other research people seem to like them. has anyone here had experience with them or heard them in person. Also are there any major dealers in the US for these?

Thanks in advance,
Rick
post #76 of 1291
bump need some thoughts on the moviestar series
post #77 of 1291
Sorry don't know that one. My EVO CC will finally be here Wed Will post after I get it.
post #78 of 1291
still looking for some advise on the movie star series
post #79 of 1291
I own the soon to be classic "8.1s" & 9.5s,I've also owned the 8.3s,8.4s,Evo 20s,Evo 40s,and 9.4s,im a Wharfedale fan for life no matter what!
post #80 of 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Element View Post

I would say it applies to any passive crossover system. The whole point of the crossover is to take a load (signal), split it into 2 separate loads (bass and treble), send it to respective speakers (on time, so it produces sound in phase), then re-integrate the load on the negative pole return to the amp. If you split the loads, then you take away phase control. Seems like a bad idea. From my experience, it was bad in reality. For example, Norah Jones. Perfect music to make biwire look good, right? Airy, treble-heavy. BUt when I biwired, cymbals in particular sounded muddled. There are tracks where cymbals are being played with wire brushes at the same time that maracas are being shaken. When biwired, this became a mushy, sibilant mess that hurt my ears. Single wired, I could clearly distinguish the two instruments. I noticed similar issues in many different albums and types of music. Not to mention the soundstage was off when biwired. Echo-ey. Hollow. Of course, INHO, YMMV, etc, but I highly encourage you to try fat single wire and see if you like it better.


Rogue, would this also apply to Bi-Amping? Or is that completely different?
post #81 of 1291
Lots of people argue about this, so take this is as just MHO. I would say that any time you have a passive crossover connected to both speakers you can have this problem. That would include biwire and passive biamping. When people get into biamping (I'm not that far into this hobby yet, but do know some who are), they often go to active biamping. If you're not familiar, that's when you take the passive crossover out of the speaker wiring, then use a tuner that electronically handles the crossover duty. The tuner controls separate amps for tweeters and woofers. This avoids the crossover phasing issues brought up in my post, since the tuner actively divides the audio signal without analog crossover circuitry.

Again, this is IMHO. Lot's of people would say I'm crazy thinking that phasing issues exist. But I trust my ears and think there's fairly well-reasoned explanations for the effect. I hope this helps.
post #82 of 1291
hey since this thread has come alive we ordered the moviestar 70+ series speakers.. Who here has heard them? All the reviews I have seen online have been awesome

here is a picture of them

post #83 of 1291
My Wharfedale System 7.1

Basement Stuff] Bi wired
Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 Fronts
Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Sides & Rear
Wharfedale Sub Power Cube 12A
Sony STR 5000ES
Sony DVD NC555ES 5 Disc
Pioneer Elite 910HD
Monster Power HTS 3600
Wharfedale Diamond 8 Center

Great sound stage!
post #84 of 1291
I need to recalibrate my HK AVR before I give some serious thoughts on the EVO CC but so far it works fairly well. I have been getting compliments on the overall SQ recently from some visitors which is nice Still with the terrible acoustics in my place I just don't think justice is being done.

I've been playing with Dolby 3ch modes for some music listening and on some material I really like how it opens up and lifts the soundstage although at the expense of some lower/mid bass vs no processing/2ch.

Ok, tonight I'll spend a few minutes and recalibrate the CC and see if I notice any difference. I doubt it as the way I have everything does not lend itself to critical listening of any sort - typically I prefer to bust out my reference grade headphones for that duty. If only I could put together a system that sounded like them...
post #85 of 1291
Well my moviestar speakers arrived today and unfortunetly they are way to big for my application. So if any of you are looking for these I will let them go for $340 shipped. Brand new never mounted or played.
post #86 of 1291
I like my pair of Pacific Evolution 20s. Although, a couple of months after I bought them the company comes out with Pacific Evolution type 2. No fair!
post #87 of 1291
post #88 of 1291
I just got some Diamond 9.2's off of EBay ($200, a steal), and Wow they are much better sounding then my 7.2's were, it is a HUGE difference.

I think there is quite a bit of room for improvement though, I am using a Pansonic SA-HE200 to power them, and unfortunatly I don't have much flexibility in positioning them because of my small rectangular and front projection set up.
post #89 of 1291
Am trying to tweak my Home Theater/Music system while I have a week off. However, too much reading brings up more questions.

5.1 setup
HK AVR520
HK DVD 25
Denon Turntable
Dynaco A-35 fronts
Wharfedale WH2 package
Samsung 43" DLP
Directv
(HDTV to come later)

From my further reading of the Wharfedale site it seems that the "rear" bipolar speakers should be mounted behind the listening position on the wall. Apparently, I thought they could be mounted on the side walls too. I can move them, but do you think that I will notice a difference. The diagram I saw on the Wharfedale site shows that these speakers were designed to bounce off the side wall then back to the listener. It seems to me that mounted on the side walls they don't have anything to bounce back against so the sound continues forward and probably mixes with the center speaker and the fronts.
post #90 of 1291
Well I'm a lazy git and still haven't recalibrated! However, two days I ago I had my eyes doubly opened

I bought Pink Floyd'S Dark Side of the Moon on heavyweight vinyl. WOW. Not only was the sound quality of the record itself unbelievable - I mean seriously, it sounds better than the CD version (mind you the record is remastered, but still). All I hear is sweet music, no noise off the record even - and my player is a cheap Denon with integrated phono stage. The album is also the first one I've heard on my new system where I am finally satisfied with how it sounds.

Yay!
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