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Philadelphia, PA - OTA - Page 52

post #1531 of 3653
WTVE would do well to update their web page, but I will note that they have now turned off analog.

http://www.wtve.com/aboutWTVE.htm

Quote:
WTVE operates on TV channel 51, as well as on digital channel 25 as WTVE-DT. By July 2006, WTVE will be operating with a high-power state-of-the-art digital television station as the American television industry completes its transition to all digital TV. Digital TV will give WTVE the ability to air multiple channels of programming as well as to provide high-definition over-the-air TV service.
post #1532 of 3653
WGTW has been back for a few days now with all 5 subchannels.

I got a call last week from an engineer at W36DO (Cornerstone television) - he said 36.1 is back up, broadcasting from the Roxborough antenna farm. I've tried several times with a couple of different tuners and haven't been able to get anything. Anyone able to receive this station? It's low power (only 3.8 kW).
post #1533 of 3653
Anyone else in the Philadelphia OTA market with a TVGOS-enabled device (TV Guide On Screen) seeing things go from bad to worse since Saturday?
post #1534 of 3653
Yes. We just recently got a new Sony TV with the TV Guide On Screen feature that seemed to work for a week or so. Then all of a sudden the listings began to fade away to "No Listing", and finally it just says that for all channels, all days.

I thought there was something wrong with the TV and kept going through the setup procedure, but I've finally come to realize that something's wrong with the TVGOS system.

If what I've read is true, then this info is piggybacked on the ANALOG signal of one of the local channels - I believe I heard that it's Channel 10 (?). I'm wondering if the great analog shut-off last Monday might have caused them to stop encoding the info on the analog channel.

This further brings up the question of how will these devices work, if at all, in the coming digital age?

Harry
post #1535 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by HGN2001 View Post

Yes. We just recently got a new Sony TV with the TV Guide On Screen feature that seemed to work for a week or so. Then all of a sudden the listings began to fade away to "No Listing", and finally it just says that for all channels, all days.

I thought there was something wrong with the TV and kept going through the setup procedure, but I've finally come to realize that something's wrong with the TVGOS system.

If what I've read is true, then this info is piggybacked on the ANALOG signal of one of the local channels - I believe I heard that it's Channel 10 (?). I'm wondering if the great analog shut-off last Monday might have caused them to stop encoding the info on the analog channel.

This further brings up the question of how will these devices work, if at all, in the coming digital age?

Harry

Since you've got a new TV, it will be well equipped to accept TVGOS from either analog or digital sources. The problem is that in this area, WHYY 12 analog (which has been the primary station carrying TVGOS for many years) is much stronger than KYW-DT 3.1 digital (the station now carrying the digital version of TVGOS) because analog stations are virtually always stronger than digital. The TVGOS-enabled device (the TV in your case and my Sony DVR) during the night when it's off/standby, searches for the strongest TVGOS host station and downloads listings from that. It appears that WHYY is still transmitting the signal, but for some reason I need to check into on Monday morning with their engineering department, there is no longer any content in the signal. I can force my device to use either 3.1 or 57 as alternates and get some functionality back (although there seems to be some bad data coming from TVGOS themselves via those sources), but if I turn it off it eventually reverts to WHYY with its vacant TVGOS signal.

My suspicion is that Macrovision (TVGOS parent company now) is experimenting with some new listing content aimed at newer TVs, but that is somehow confusing older boxes. Perhaps WHYY has gotten enough complaints that they pulled the TVGOS plug for the moment until the issue is resolved.

It's all very much a mystery, but if I were you, I'd do the same - call WHYY, ask for the engineering department, and tell them your TVGOS TV isn't getting good TVGOS data from them.
post #1536 of 3653
Hi all -

I'm located in 19020, Roxborough is at 268, 18 miles away.

Looking at the hdtvprimer dot com antenna comparison ... on the net-gain graph for the Channel Master 4248, it appears to be over 11db for vhf ... am I reading that right? Would it be realistic to think that a this model might be usable for Channels 6 & 12?

I'm hoping to keep an antenna in the attic for ease of installation and wiring/distribution ... the 4248 seems nicely compact but I had the impression it was UHF-only. If it isn't a good candidate I don't think i could manage anything larger than a CM 3014 (indeed, would a CM 2001 be shooting too low?).

Any thoughts/guidance for a newbie much appreciated.
post #1537 of 3653
Welcome to AVS forum. Head over to the TV Fool website: http://www.tvfool.com/ Run the "Check Your Address" and see what you come up with. There's a lot of information.

You're in Bensalem (or close to it). Have you done any testing to see what you can get with an indoor antenna from a 2nd story window looking at Roxborough? You want to be sure that you have a clean line-of-sight to Roxborough. Note that Channel 12 (WHYY-DT) will be next to impossible to get.

I use a UHF-only Yagi and preamp and have to punch through a treeline. It's been somewhat reliable, but multipath can get very frustrating at times. My OTA setup is a backup to FiOS, so I'm not too concerned when I lose signal.

I'll switch to a VHF/UHF configuration when WPVI-DT and WHYY-DT go to VHF.
post #1538 of 3653
Just FYI, I'm in Feasterville with lots of trees to contend with and zero inclination to put up an outdoor antenna. I use a Channel Master 4228 (not the newer 4228HD) in my attic for UHF (with an old but reliable CM Preamp), which I combine with a simple twinlead folded dipole (also in attic) cut to length specifically for channel 6 (no preamp) using a UHF/VHF combiner http://www.antennasdirect.com/antenna_combiner.html . The resulting combined signal goes into a Kitz Technologies KT-100VG Low Noise Amplifier so that I can ultimately split it 6 ways down the line. The 4228 alone gets virtually nothing on Ch 6, but with this setup I'm getting a Ch 6 signal that should pass muster come the transition. Ch 12 is fine too, though it was fine with just the 4228 also.

The 4228 is about a yard square by 6 inches deep and so takes up little real estate; same with the folded dipole.

Because of the trees, the whole setup can give iffy reception when the winds are high, but generally works quite well.
post #1539 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekGirl View Post

...Note that Channel 12 (WHYY-DT) will be next to impossible to get...

I'm hoping you just mean right now, due to reduced transmission power prior to Feb 17th.

The only indoor antenna I have is a loop and ears built-into an ancient tv with the contacts re-routed to a CM7000 box. Suppose I could lug that bundle of joy over to the part of the house near where I'd setup a permanent antenna and see what happens. Yeah, I'll definitely try that.

I can't help but smile at the idea of making my own folded dipole antenna. Though now when I think about things a bit - I might like to get FM with the same antenna arrangement, which steers me back towards something like a CM 3014/3016, though I suppose making my own would be cheap enough to try first anyway...hmm, plenty to think about.

thx
post #1540 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzinator View Post

I'm hoping you just mean right now, due to reduced transmission power prior to Feb 17th.

It's not so much reduced power (on WHYY-DT 50) as it is a directional antenna that says "sorry Lower Bucks County, you lose". Yes it should get better in Feb when much more signal comes this way. In the meantime, I'm actually doing much better than many in my area and getting WHYY-DT quite well except on very windy days. I've got pretty good altitude, but the PA Turnpike is still in the way.
post #1541 of 3653
Is anyone who watches NBC10 on an SD TV seeing an over pan and scanned image?

I'm on Cablevision's Hamilton, NJ system (mercer county) and shows that show during primetime in letterbox are being pan and scanned very badly. Even shows that are supposed to show even on SD TVs in letterbox are showing this way.

I can switch to NBC4 from New York and see them in letterbox, but on NBC10 they are cut off improperly.

For example - on SNL - on weekend update - the graphic in the upper left corner - about a third is cut off on the left side - and actually part of the word is lost.

As a visual example - here's two pics I took of ER (initially I thought it was a software update to our SA4200 cable boxes but that is not the case):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/usdin/3054349611/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usdin/3055184432/

As you can see - the name in the credits is cut off on both sides - should read "Janine Sherman Barrois" but the J is somewhat cut off and the S is not even visible. It's obvious in many scenes - where an actor is supposed to be in frame, and you can barely see them.

It's not my TV, as it occurs on all TVs in my house - even ones without a cable box with a straight analog cable to the TV, so it's whatever Cablevision is sending - whether that is what they are getting from NBC or not, I don't know.


So - wondering - is NBC10 doing this pan and scan, or is Cablevision? I've contacted Cablevision and they are looking into it but no answer. I contacted NBC10 with no response yet either. My workaround is to watch NBC4 from NYC which is fine, but I'd love an answer as to what is happening.

Anyone?

--*Rob
post #1542 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

... a directional antenna that says "sorry Lower Bucks County, you lose" ...

Ok, that actually does ring a bell, something about avoiding Trenton?
I guess as GeekGirl suggested, I'll see what I get with current equipment and go from there.

Would it be fair to think that if I get good 6 & 12 analog I'll likely be ok with digital?
post #1543 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzinator View Post

Ok, that actually does ring a bell, something about avoiding Trenton?
I guess as GeekGirl suggested, I'll see what I get with current equipment and go from there.

Would it be fair to think that if I get good 6 & 12 analog I'll likely be ok with digital?

Some can depend on location. I was in an apartment over off Street Rd(Korman) and got crappy digital signal. My current apartment(Park Ave) I get much much better reception. Of course I cannot even put up anything outdoors, but I have had good success with a plain old indoor antenna. Heck usually the paper clips do just as well. WPVI can be a little spotty but the big stations are reliable. Depending on weather and with a little adjustments I can find WNJS/WNJT/WMCN. One TV of mine even gets WHYY with a paper clip, pretty reliably.

FWIW, I get analog 6 and 10 pretty well with a plain indoor UHF/VHF dipole/loop, and can get digital pretty good as well. Analog KYW is harder since it is down on ch 3.

Of course some stations change digital frequencies next year, WPHL,WHYY,WPVI,WCAU all come to mind, there might be more. I know KYW,WPSG,WTXF are remaining where they are now.
post #1544 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzinator View Post

Ok, that actually does ring a bell, something about avoiding Trenton?

Actually, they're avoiding Montclair NJ, home of an analog NJN station on channel 50. Same general direction but Trenton IS supposed to be in their coverage area (weakly)
post #1545 of 3653
I suspect that if you can get 57 analog (NTSC), you should be OK. It might be a good test for the upper end of UHF. Except for the Lower Bucks (Montclair NJ) avoidance by WHYY-DT.

I have a thick treeline at about 80' and my only option is high gain and hope for the best. Most of the trees are pine which means they don't drop their leaves and have extra attenuation.
post #1546 of 3653
The Channel Master 4228 does a nice job for channel 10 and 12 analog which are VHF. Channel six is really asking a lot from a UHF antenna. I have a 4228 antenna and the 7777 pre amp in my attic pointing toward Roxborough. I am 30 miles from the antenna farm. I get all the digital channels available. 12 gives me a bit of trouble once in awhile. I also built a 4 bow tie version made out of wood and coat hangers and I have it hooked up to a Zenith 901 converter box. The antenna is sitting up against my bedroom window pointing no where near Roxborough and without an amp. This set up get everything including 12 every time.

The 4228 is a nice compact antenna. I'm not sure channel 6 will be worth the hassle if the antenna can not pull it in.
post #1547 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by georget View Post

The 4228 is a nice compact antenna. I'm not sure channel 6 will be worth the hassle if the antenna can not pull it in.

Precisely why I added the folded dipole.
post #1548 of 3653
i havent mentioned my large DB8 lately but except for the channel 6 issue i'm very happy with it. Cant get 12 anymore with the change in direction but from 40 miles to the NW i think i'm doing very well.

I do get a bunch of NJ stuff but since I dont watch it, removed it from my directv guide so cant remember all the stations

I know it's 2x the price but i only had one shot at an antenna (i dont go on the roof) and this was well worth it
post #1549 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by robusdin View Post

Is anyone who watches NBC10 on an SD TV seeing an over pan and scanned image?

I'm on Cablevision's Hamilton, NJ system (mercer county) and shows that show during primetime in letterbox are being pan and scanned very badly. Even shows that are supposed to show even on SD TVs in letterbox are showing this way.

I can switch to NBC4 from New York and see them in letterbox, but on NBC10 they are cut off improperly.

For example - on SNL - on weekend update - the graphic in the upper left corner - about a third is cut off on the left side - and actually part of the word is lost.

As a visual example - here's two pics I took of ER (initially I thought it was a software update to our SA4200 cable boxes but that is not the case):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/usdin/3054349611/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usdin/3055184432/

As you can see - the name in the credits is cut off on both sides - should read "Janine Sherman Barrois" but the J is somewhat cut off and the S is not even visible. It's obvious in many scenes - where an actor is supposed to be in frame, and you can barely see them.

It's not my TV, as it occurs on all TVs in my house - even ones without a cable box with a straight analog cable to the TV, so it's whatever Cablevision is sending - whether that is what they are getting from NBC or not, I don't know.


So - wondering - is NBC10 doing this pan and scan, or is Cablevision? I've contacted Cablevision and they are looking into it but no answer. I contacted NBC10 with no response yet either. My workaround is to watch NBC4 from NYC which is fine, but I'd love an answer as to what is happening.

Anyone?

--*Rob

I am working on a project right now at work dealing with the same issues. Pan Scan may be the cause, but there could be some AFD data telling the decoder where to crop the image. AFD is created by the production house that encoded the video for NBC from the source. Are you seeing this with local NBC 10 news and the syndicated content during the afternoon?
Is the channel an analog, or just a digital stream being decoded by the SA Box?
post #1550 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekGirl View Post

I suspect that if you can get 57 analog (NTSC), you should be OK. It might be a good test for the upper end of UHF. Except for the Lower Bucks (Montclair NJ) avoidance by WHYY-DT.

I'm a bit rusty on this WHYY issue. Are they going to be @ RF 50 after the transition or RF 12? If they are going to be @ RF 50 and transmitting at any kind of reasonable power, I should be able to get them fine.

But if they're going to be @ RF 12 and not so hot powerwise, I might have a problem. I was watching them last night (analog) and the reception wasn't so hot. That's probably because I have my VHF elements collapsed (folded back) so as to reduce the amount of wind my antenna catches. I used to get analog 12 pretty darn good with the antenna set up normally, so I was a bit surprised to see the rather poor reception until I remembered that I had folded the elements back. (I haven't watched WHYY in a long time now)

So if anybody knows, what RF and power are they gonna be at come February?


__________________
Regular old NTSC TV
SIR-TS360 receiver (also Voom OTA box (retired Voom Satellite box))
RS Model U-75R antenna
Getting 30+ strong stations out of the Roxborough farm and Trenton (farm is ~50 miles away @ 233°)
post #1551 of 3653
They will be on channel 12. It's either going to be 10 kW non-directional, or do 20 kW directional. They have permits for both and I don't know whether they are going to start off with the 10 kW one and upgrade later, or just go to the 20 kW one from the start.

- Trip
post #1552 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

They will be on channel 12. It's either going to be 10 kW non-directional, or do 20 kW directional. They have permits for both and I don't know whether they are going to start off with the 10 kW one and upgrade later, or just go to the 20 kW one from the start.
- Trip

Neither your own site nor the FCC database show the reuse of the old omni-directional antenna any more - looks like the 20kW directional is a go; but at least the new channel/pattern doesn't disenfrancise the northeast suburbs.
post #1553 of 3653
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ility_id=72338

This filing implies the 9.9 kW signal will be built out first. I guess that's the confirmation.

- Trip
post #1554 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ility_id=72338
This filing implies the 9.9 kW signal will be built out first. I guess that's the confirmation.

So it does! Wonder why they pulled that configuration from the database (or put it someplace where it can't be found.) It was there a few months ago. Then again, they never got around to putting the current digital transmitter/antenna into the main WHYY record, so I suppose I shouldn't expect anything to be logical.
post #1555 of 3653
It's the FCC's doing. Instead of treating it as a separate CP, they called it a CP Mod which means the current CP got modified instead of being granted a second one.

- Trip
post #1556 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHillKL View Post

I am working on a project right now at work dealing with the same issues. Pan Scan may be the cause, but there could be some AFD data telling the decoder where to crop the image. AFD is created by the production house that encoded the video for NBC from the source. Are you seeing this with local NBC 10 news and the syndicated content during the afternoon?
Is the channel an analog, or just a digital stream being decoded by the SA Box?

It is happening also with 4:3 images, during all times of the day. So IOW I think what is happening is either NBC is sending them an overscanned pan and scan of the HD feed, or Cablevision is overscanning it.

Last night - watching the 4:3 show from Rockefeller Center - it was overscanned and the graphics on the bottom were cut off on the sides, whereas on NBC4 from NYC they were not. The NBC bug logo was visibly VERY close to the corner of the screen on NBC10, and NBC4 it had some space in both corners.

And - it showed that way even without a box on a TV with a coax cable plugged in - so the analog version of the channel Cablevision was sending is broadcasting it that way - whether they are converting or NBC10 is converting it to an overscanned image, I don't know.

--*Rob
post #1557 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by robusdin View Post

So - wondering - is NBC10 doing this pan and scan, or is Cablevision? I've contacted Cablevision and they are looking into it but no answer. I contacted NBC10 with no response yet either. My workaround is to watch NBC4 from NYC which is fine, but I'd love an answer as to what is happening.

Anyone?

--*Rob

I believe that the answer is that it's Cablevision that's causing you to see what you're seeing.

Try this, if you can, just to experiment. The next time NBC is airing a 16:9 show, unplug your TV from all cables - or use perhaps an old portable television and tune directly to channel 10 - over-the-air.

This will require that you use some kind of antenna to receive the over-the-air analog broadcast. Many old portable TVs have rabbit ears already attached. Plug those (or screw the ends into the terminals) into the RF jack, extend them, and view free over-the-air TV.

Now, assuming you can receive channel 10 from Philadelphia at your location - you might not as you seem to be somewhere in central New Jersey, take a look at the over-the-air picture on analog channel 10. Even if you can get a fuzzy picture, it will be enough to verify what I'm saying.

If you watch say, ER, or LAW AND ORDER, you'll see a letterboxed picture - just as you expect to see on these shows. There will be bars at the top and bottom, and the full width of the picture that NBC is sending will be viewable.

Now compare that with what Cablevision is sending you. You claim (I can only go on your descriptions) that Cablevision is sending a pan'n'scan picture. What I believe they might be sending is a centered "zoomed" picture, gotten from NBC10 digital.

The digital version of NBC10 (all that will be available in February when analog TV shuts off) is a 16:9 picture. In order to fit that size picture on a 4:3 TV, there are three choices.

(1) - A letterboxed image with black bars top and bottom.
(2) - A zoomed image, centered so there are no black bars but sides are cut off.
(3) - A horizontally squeezed image. There are no bars, you get the full picture, but everone looks tall and thin.

These are the three options given by the digital-to-analog converter boxes that the government is subsidizing for the switch to digital TV. The converter boxes receive the digital signals through an antenna and convert them to analog for your old television. You have the three choices above as to how you want to view the pictures.

My belief is that Cablevision is making the choice to "zoom" NBC10 (perhaps all stations, I can't say), as we near the analg shutoff. In order to send NBC10 to its viewers, Cablevision (and other outlets) are having to make a choice as to how to send these 16:9 pictures to its customers with 4:3 sets.

Both ABC and CBS, when they broadcast 16:9 shows, still crop the image - and it's filmed to provide a safe 4:3 image, so you're not missing letters off of credits when they provide a 4:3 picture on their analog channels. When Cablevision zooms in on those, you're seeing essentially the same picture as you would viewing the analog ABC or CBS.

NBC is the only major broadcast network that's been providing a letterboxed image for its analog viewers. But when Cablevision chooses to zoom in on these shows, probably not totally 4:3 safe, you're going to notice that something's wrong.

I believe that's what's happening.

Harry
post #1558 of 3653
Judging from the lively discussions that my previous posts about this station have generated there must be thousands of Phila OTA'ers waiting with bated breath for the latest news. I talked with a Cornerstone engineer today and they are hoping to have 36.1 up soon. The task at hand is to aim a dish at Galaxy 25 for the downlink from Cornerstone, then rebroadcast it OTA on 36.1. They've been having problems with the downlink. Not that anyone cares, apparently.
post #1559 of 3653
Quote:
Originally Posted by otaguy View Post

Judging from the lively discussions that my previous posts about this station have generated there must be thousands of Phila OTA'ers waiting with bated breath for the latest news. I talked with a Cornerstone engineer today and they are hoping to have 36.1 up soon. The task at hand is to aim a dish at Galaxy 25 for the downlink from Cornerstone, then rebroadcast it OTA on 36.1. They've been having problems with the downlink. Not that anyone cares, apparently.

Are you sure that its Galaxy 25 ? I think that Galaxy 25 was replaced by Galaxy 19 recently at 97 degrees west.
Regards
Owenf
post #1560 of 3653
The company that owns W36DO-D apparently likes to lease out subchannels, so there's a chance that something interesting (not Cornerstone) could show up on there at some point in the future.

- Trip
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