Even Later HiDef DVD News - Page 139  

Glad to see that you are catching on... :D

b2b

First of all, the stuff that Rio posted went from Adam Yokoi, to journalist, to article, to translation and interpretation by Rio. Your "ping" went from Adam Yokoi, to you, to your own built-in HD-DVD/BD filter. Who should we most likely believe? :rolleyes:

According to the translation provided by Rio and how I read it, Adam said that it takes a year for WB titles in BD to catch up with HD-DVD titles. You take it as if Adam said BD title from all of the studios will take up a whole year to catch up with BD.

Is that not fear, doubt and uncertainty from your part?

Already at launch (see Grubert's thread about HD titles at launch), BD titles outnumber HD-DVD titles (which from my last reading of that thread, you did not find the time to respond to Grubert's calling you on 200 HD-DVD titles by end of 2006, or for that matter launch titles).

Even if WB's BD titles takes one year to catch up with their HD-DVD titles, there are still BD exclusive studios (Fox, Lionsgate, Sony, Disney) cranking out titles during those long 12 months. So if WB takes a year to catch up, other studios are taking up the slack. And if they can do BD50 by middle of 2006, I'm quite certain the replication process would be refined by end of the year.

I doubt that your reading of Rio's translation was correct; you can always personally "ping" Adam again for his clarification on that point. Might help also if you ask Rio for the original Japanese article and cut and paste that in your "ping".

And since nobody picked up on my earlier post about possible October release date for PS3, let me haul that still alive horse back up for some more beatings. (call PETA!!! :D:D:D)

Samsung BD player release date is late April. By end of July, Pioneer is predicted to release their expensivo Elite. By that time, the BD roll-out would have already commenced. I conservatively predict the first few BD titles to be released in June. If an October release schedule is true for PS3, there would be already five months since BD launches (June to Oct, discounting the month of May).

I predict people would buy PS3 versus a stand-alone BD player like the Samsung 10:1. So when (and not if) PS3 flies off the shelves, the game titles and BD titles will fly with them. Hopefully by then, disc replicators can churn BDs as fast as they can - for both games and for movies. :D:D:D

Call me on if I'm bashing HD-DVD in this or any of my last 10 posts - the one post to nataraj notwithstanding. :D:D:D I'm defending BD.


fuad

If Blu-ray (or HD-DVD for that matter) looks good in the customers eyes, that's all that matters. I will bet you any time that the vast majority of customers will not be able to notice any difference between HD-DVD and Blu-ray regarding picture/sound.

If you believe that people will show an interest in codecs and storagecapacity with ROM discs, then look at the DVD market. How many of the people who buy DVDs are interested in what kind of disc is used or what videocodec is used?

Only Sony will release MPEG-2 discs for what we know at this time - the other BD filmstudios are using newer codecs. I think you have been reminded of this enough times by now.... BTW - it's your (and others who prefer HD-DVD) assumption/hope that Blu-ray will produce lower quality pictures - nothing else.

I've read several posts at this forum written by the people in the business or/and people in the know, that a qualified person overseeing/encoding/compressing or whatever the transfer can be vital for the endresult qualitywise. Sofar I haven't seen these statements questioned.

Dr. Phil would probably just say: "When you fight about everything, you fight about nothing" or "How's that working for you?".... Or he would say "Get a life, guys..." :D

I guess it's too much to ask that every post present some actual information, or at least present question(s) that might help us learn something new. The incessant bickering does nothing but clutter this thread...

I just thought I would reiterate that Sonic and MEI announced a partnership at CES to deliver BD tools with a high-performance AVC encoding solution in beta this spring, with final release expected this summer.

Thus, while BD may be limited to MPEG-2 (to some extent) at a May/June launch, high-performance implementations of AVC will be available and supported by BD tools this fall, at the very latest. If Blu-ray is delayed from May/June to say, August/September, it's quite possible we could see launch titles using high-performance AVC encoders.

Amir,

Sonic's Scenarist for HD-DVD currently supports VC-1, but their BD tools evidently do not. Have you had any communication with Sonic on supporting VC-1 in their forthcoming release, so studios have an alternative to the bundled MEI encoder on BD?

The question is rather not how release titles look but how common and AAA titles look when the format(s) have had time to mature and gained working routines. At that time the comparison is likely between HD-DVD 30 and BD 50 with same potential codecs used.

I interpreted original Japanese sentence "新作については映画監督など制作側が選択していますが、旧作に関してはわれわれWarnerがコーデックを選んでいま す" as "production side will choose the codec for its new release title, while Warner will choose the codec for catalog release". I interpreted this sentence implying that codec will be determined by title basis. But I could be wrong. At least, there is no indication shown in the paragraph that they'll stick with VC-1 for foreseeable future.

Digital Media Exchange (Warner's subsidiary post house) could have variety of customer, not only WHV. WHV won't invest equipments. Post house does. If that post house have an ability to do BD authoring/H.264 encoding, there could be a more business chance to get customer who wants to release BD title or HD DVD title using H.264.

The interview article doesn't mention anything about this. I think we need to think Sony and Warner separately. Sony/SPE has its own agenda. Warner has its own strategy. Maybe SPE thought real time = productivity = number of release-able titles is the key for them (they mentioned in a interview article that they'll release about 150 titles in a year (10 catalog release, 2 new release/month)). Maybe Sony Corp. wants all BD titles from SPE would be playable on its laptop PCs.

First of all, I'm sorry for posting crappy English/translation here and thank you for being patient to read it.

Since original Japanese article itself is written in very vague in some parts, lacking subject and/or verb, so I had to assume those from the context. Also there are some sentences that can be interpreted in different meaning, so I could misunderstand.

If you point out which part is wrong, or post Adam Yokoi's direct opinion here, those would help me a lot to understand what Adam Yokoi really wants to say. BTW, did Adam Yokoi mentioned about correctness of original Japanese article?
http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle...7/news019.html

I'd like to post original Japanese article here:
The first sentence "コーデックは同じものを使うことになります", I think, could be interpreted 2 ways: one is "(We'll) use same codec (for both formats)", the other is "(We'll) use (or stick to) one codec (for all titles)". This sentence doesn't have a subject and an object. Words in brackets are words I assumed from context. The first interpretation makes sense, then I wrote it. The second interpretation could be true, but it seems conflicting later sentence, so I thought that was not correct interpretation.

The second sentence "H.264とVC-1" just says "H.264 and VC-1". No subject and verb. The third sentence "どちらも基本的には同じです" means "Both are basically same", it's very clear.

The fourth sentence, according to Amir, is the one made Adam surprised, "横浜で2回、グレンデール（Warnerのあるバーバンクの隣町）で2回、パラマウント近くの劇場で1回". There is no subject and verb in this sentence. From the context, there is no implication what subject is, so I had to assume both of them, then I wrote "(We tested them)" with brackets.

Last sentence "紙一重でVC-1の方が勝ちましたが、現時点で両コーデックの実力はほぼ同等だと思います" says "VC-1 won (those tests) by a hair, but we think both codecs' capability is same at this moment".

Now, for Adam Yokoi and Amir, the difference between "we (implies Warner)" and "DVD Forum" seem to be huge difference. For me, I don't really care about this difference, but I do care that Adam Yokoi thought the difference between VC-1 and H.264 is very thin, even though H.264 status at the DVD Forum is H.264 MP, not HP. This opinion is different from Amir's claim that H.264 is softer with loop filter, otherwise it'll suffer for block noises. I don't agree to that assertion, from what I saw H.264 HP demo on 1080p 65" plasma at Panasonic CES booth, some of their clips were very sharp and found no block/mosquito noises and some other reports got same impression as mine.

Does this mean Warner will stick to VC-1, at least for all HD DVD titles? Then, whole paragraph doesn't make sense at all. Why did the interviewer misunderstand that production side will choose the codec for new release, while it is already determined?

There's another horse in the media server race, HANA (The High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance). HANA, which is backed by companies including Samsung, Mitsubishi, JVC, NBC Universal, is trying to build a framework for pushing HD content around your home network without the Windows-centric aspects of DLNA (namely UPnP). Lots of HANA-enabled devices were shown at CES (i.e. set-top box delivering content over a home coax network to a TV in another room with full control communication between devices from a single remote). Many of the companies involved indicated they intend to release products in the marketplace this year.

- Talk

Yet your strategy ignores the fact that there are many devices and specifications which support H.264/AVC but not VC-1, while there are few (if any) that support VC-1 without supporting H.264/AVC. US cable operators, DirecTV, and Dish Network are just a few prominent examples of companies who have selected AVC for broadcast without announced VC-1 support. Only supporting VC-1 is yet another example of Microsoft using a dominant market position to attempt to advantage your other technologies at a cost of supporting reasonable interoperability.

Perhaps in support of "making the world a happier place" you'd like to commit Microsoft to participating in Open Media Commons, whose first goal is to "Develop open, royalty-free digital rights management and codec solutions"?

- Talk

No, they are often the best source of insight, as they will often provide insider information which a current employee can't or won't. You just have to recognize that the source has a bias which may have influenced how that information gets reported.

I tend to agree with this. Though I bit my tongue and resisted posting it myself at the time.

- Tom

Maybe this has been posted somewhere else but...

The full article is here.


Very interesting bit of news. Can't wait for them to announce the release dates later this week. :cool:

EDIT: After reading the article once more, I find the article very exciting and almost revealing what Sony plans to do with the PSP via PS3. By starting with DVD+UMD, they are training PS3 buyers to love the concept of having it both ways (sound rather dirty, I know) with DVD and UMD. Then when PS3 launches, this training will be finally revealed with Blu-Ray movie titles where PS3 will allow a UMD version to be downloaded into the PSP (provided it has enough memory). Good training and trial of Managed Copy.


fuad

Just posted a correction to the Sony BD pricing story in that thread if anyone's interested--Sony has apparently recanted on stipulating MSRPs on BD titles.

Feingold, in discussing Sony's BD wholesale pricing for BD, let slip with some juicy tidbits:

-- Sony has said up until now that they would launch SPHE titles when the PS3 launched...they aren't saying this anymore, lending credence to the reality that the PS3 launch in NA, at least, has slipped beyond what they wanted...as such, Feingold confirmed that BD titles will now ship *before* the PS3 ships, and they're scrambling to make sure that they have non-PS3 hardware in the channel to support this reworked launch

-- SCE plans to have "up to" 2,000,000 PS3s available within the first few weeks of its launch, but said they don't plan on revealing their launch date(s) anytime soon, or their launch strategy (i.e., global or regional)

-- Did someone say managed copy? Feingold certainly did..."with the launch of Blu-ray, we're going to try to introduce the managed-copy concept, where if you buy Blu-ray you'll be able to get additional versions (of the same title) to use in your home," which he then followed up with a not-so-subtle hint that they'll mimic their physical DVD/UMD *bundling* scenario...so, one interpretation of MC (and MMC) in Sony's world means you buy a DVD/BD bundle, or a UMD/BD bundle...or the utlimate in MC friendliness, a DVD/UMD/BD bundle...of course, you're paying upfront for all of this, whether you want it or not

-- Only allowing BD titles to be sold alongside BD HW is really pi$$ing some retailers off...and it remains to be seen if rental channels will get slapped with the same restrictions

What's up with that? If HD DVD discs are actually all over the place in a few months it seems Sony can't afford to make it very restrictive looking for BD. What are they trying to accomplish here?

- Tom

Sorry, alex, but you're misreading the Video Business article.

That second paragraph was obviously the reporter's calculation of where MSRPs would be, going from the wholesale prices. Nowhere is Feingold quoted as giving MSRPs. So he cannot recant from something he hasn't said, can he?

Link? I've got all the Sony CES press releases, and their CES slideshow, where it very clearly says "Launch Timing Concurrent with First Players available at Retail". No PS3.

Most of the rest of your post is cut-and-paste from the Hollywood Reporter article fuad just posted.

You're slipping, Alex. ;)

You're leeping, Grubert. :)

I'm quoting from multiple sources, including CED.

-- Feingold said SPHE's plan was to launch it's first wave of BD titles "day and date with the rollout of PS3"...that plan has been changed

-- An early report on Feingold's interview noted that MSRPs and firms street dates would be released soon...now it's just the street dates

Here's another tidbit you won't find (yet) in the public press...Feingold went on record that he "hopes" to wholesale price their two 50GB titles the same as their 25GB titles, but that "no final decision has been made." Why? Because they have no clue what 50GB is going to cost, and Singulus doesn't look like they're going to be able to deliver even an alpha DL expansion module in time, so they've going to likely be running these discs off one of their two Japanese lab lines.

Just some quick clarifictations on my comments last night about Adam Yokoi. We only asked Adam about the codec choice. We did not ask him to comment on anything else and he did not do so on his own either. The reason was that the codec choice impacted their official and public position regrding usage of VC-1 so we wanted to make sure nothing had changed there. The rest of the information is not an issue for Adam to clarify since that is not his job (he is not in the operational side of things where encoding, codec choices, etc. occur). Even though I was happy to see him confirm that BD tiltes are way behind ("up to a year") in his interview, I personally don't put a lot of weight there either. Other people will make these decisions and a lot market forces impact such time frames. So there, I gave you back your gift :).

And yes, whoever says you have no proof here and rather ingore all of this, you are welcome to do so. But you better get good at understanding Japanese and read Rio's recent post :).

Amir

My dictionary jumps from leek to leer. And the wikipedia only lists LEEP as "loop electrosurgical excision procedure". But then again, I'm just a wanker, am I?

Didn't you say just yesterday that CED couldn't be trusted? :p

You say SPHE's plan was to launch its first wave of BD titles "day and date with the rollout of PS3". I have evidence that says otherwise. What's yours?

I am trying to understand exactly what you are asking. I suppose that you want 1) deinterlacing and temporal upsampling of 1080/30I content to 1080/60P, and/or 2) 3:2 frame repeats of 1080/24P content with export in a 1080/60P container, and/or 3) temporal resampling of 1080/24P content to 1080/60P. (We all know, I think, that there is no support for native 1080/60 content on the disc itself.)

In checking with our cable/satellite STB people, and the people working with our blue laser partners, I hear that there has been no real business interest in having us support these various modes of operation until relatively recently. But I am told that there is no reason we can't support some or all of these modes if and when somebody really orders this from us (and can articulate exactly what they really want).

I understand that 1080/60P inputs to displays themselves have recently become an interesting capability, and that people then map this back onto the players, but there are a variety of ways that one can process the types of content that might be on a blue laser disc and there's no consensus that I am aware of as to what our customers really want to do between point A and point B.

There's also the questions of where this processing might best be done. Some seem to believe that doing this (doubling (or more) the bandwidth!) in the player is NOT the right thing, and that it might best be done in the next stage (either the audio video receiver or the display engine itself).

So given all the above, what would you like to see done with the 1080/24P or 1080/30i content?

*A* wanker? Come now, you're *the* wanker, if anything... :)

My evidence is an interview between Benjamin Feingold and CES done last night and published today. Unlike the pablum that gets put into press releases and regurgitated as news, sometimes actually taking the time to talk to the person in charge can yield new insights:

"Feingold said SPHE had hoped to launch its first Blu-ray titles day and date with the rollout of PS3"

This sentiment has been noted in CED many times. Of *course* Sony wanted to tie Blu-ray and PS3 together...it's a masterstroke. That's not logistically possible given the slips in the PS3, so, they untie and make due, and we're now going to hear about availability and price for their BD deck...but do you think they'll give us the dealer cost on the deck, or the MSRP? Do you think their "let the market decide" philosophy of going public with wholesale media costs in lieu of actual prices (for the good of the format!) will translate to their hardware as well?

Just an FYI, I have it on very good authority that some HD DVD Titles are being done with MPEG-2. So it is not just some BD-ROM Titles using MPEG-2 in the early stages of the respective rollouts.

"Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love" :D

Now to the point:

Oh, now we're getting somewhere. You had said:

Nice backpedalling. :p

So, can we agree that Sony never said they would launch the movies with the PS3 and move on?

Thanks.

Hence I put confirmation in quotes.

I never said they were more credible. I take both for what they are worth. I then weigh this against my own thoughts and theories as to what is really going on here.


Really? So because he's a former employee of Microsoft, we automatically discount what he is saying? Interesting. Sorry, but I don't see it that way. Who better to tell us "inside" information/motives than someone who sat at the table? Sure, you gotta take it for what it's worth, but you cannot competely discount it either. What you're implying is that we can hear non-stop from biased folks who work for Microsoft, but then when someone responds the other way we should throw it out because they are biased against Microsoft. Talk about a double-standard.

And if people reading this forum don't find this codec talk a bit odd, I don't know what is "odd" then. Weigh that vs. who we know is using/facilitating a particular codec and where their loyalties lie. Then contrast that to the "open arms" and "we're willing to help" comment. If one were to believe the "best intentions" are at work here, then you are blind or extremely gullable.

As Amir would say, "The dots are starting to connect".

Congratulations, Grubert...I post a summary of an interview with the head of SPHE, wherein he formalizes a change in their original launch plans and their current launch plans, which confirms suspicions of such a change from previous interviews he's given CED, and you take this as an opportunity to Bill Clinton the meaning of is. And point out the fact that I don't spell check things.

If you remember a while back (try, if you will), in the old thread, I posted another piece from CED wherein it was hinted that Sony was backpeddling on their plans to formally launch Blu-ray proper with the release of the PS3, because of perceived problems with getting PS3s into the channel in the timeframe they expected Blu-ray to be primed for release. Well, Feingold just sealed the deal for this switch, on the record.

And yet you can't take off the Blu blinders to see the real story here, that PS3 has *really* slipped, in a tangible way, and we have a Sony exec basically confirming this (although definitely not his intent...no, Sony will say that Blu-ray is *early* now, not that the PS3 is going to be late).

Methinks I'm wasting my time here. Wank on...

So it looks like every single HD DVD movie will be done in MPEG-2 in perpetuity. That's a definite disadvantage since every single HD DVD movie will be done in MPEG-2 in perpetuity. Amir, isn't it a shame that every single HD DVD movie will be done in MPEG-2 in perpetuity?

amillians,

When I said 'backpedalling', I didn't mean SPHE. I meant you.

You reported Sony as saying something they didn't say. You made a mistake. Big deal. Don't make it worse by attacking me.

Oh, and saying you hope to do something and saying you plan to do something isn't the same thing.

Late, with regard to what? With what they said at E3 2005 ("Spring")? They could release the PS3 in Japan in June 18 and they'd be meeting their deadline. Anything else is gravy.

TG Daily weighs in on the fracas. Plenty for everyone to get worked up about.

Sony Pictures aims for $35 retail for Blu-ray movies

^^No, lots of people here like to disregard the history of Sony launches and assume it means a US release. ;)

From Feingolds comments, among other things, it's looking more and more like they're going to miss their Spring launch even for Japan. We'll find out at E3 in May I'm sure....