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post #17071 of 29304
4/30/10 at 5:07am
another thing i was thinking is you could ask that def tech seller on ebay if he has any 7001 cabinets & 7001 amps for sale

then you'd have the perfect box and amp for the driver and you could lay that baby horizontally right under your center speaker
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post #17072 of 29304
4/30/10 at 5:53am
What is the general consensus on this flick? Is the Audio as high-tech as the video? I heard that the plot is somewhat predictable, but the graphics made it worthwhile to see...I only have a 42" plasma with a PS3 for Bluray, so the video isn't as important to me as the audio...I guess what I wanna know is, do you guys think I should buy the disc?
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post #17073 of 29304
4/30/10 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjeje View Post

What is the general consensus on this flick? Is the Audio as high-tech as the video? I heard that the plot is somewhat predictable, but the graphics made it worthwhile to see...I only have a 42" plasma with a PS3 for Bluray, so the video isn't as important to me as the audio...I guess what I wanna know is, do you guys think I should buy the disc?

I own the blu-ray, only watched it once so far. The plot is predictable but I knew that going in. The visual aspect of this film is the best I have ever seen, period. The audio is very well done, not overdone as with some films. Ralph Potts gave it a perfect score of 100 for audio and video. So imo, it is worth buying.
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post #17074 of 29304
4/30/10 at 6:13am
There are a couple people selling refurbished 800's on ebay. Pricing looks pretty good but I'm wondering if this is a good route to go. I can get four 800's and a C1000 for around $565. Probably looking at an extra $100 if I buy new from someone on ebay. Either way they would not have a factory warranty...just the CPS warranty which I don't know much about. Any advice would be appreciated.
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post #17075 of 29304
4/30/10 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

never heard of a 30 ohm subwoofer driver. i wonder if it was a typo and he really meant 3 ohms

if it really is 30 ohms, i would imagine it's a really easy driver to drive. it would present the amp a really light load

there shouldn't be a problem. i'm just wondering why the amp on the 7001 is so powerful

first i would confirm that chet really did mean 30 ohms then i would ask in the DIY forum if using an amp that was meant for a 4 ohm driver can be used with a 30 ohm driver

i still think he meant 3 ohm. that would make a lot more sense but anything is possible i guess

I think Chet actually meant 30 ohms because he spelled out the word "thirty" after it in his original email.

UofAZ1 Do you own a multimeter? If so you can set it to "ohm" mode and just touch the 2 probes to the speaker prongs and you'll have your proof. I have one and I actually have 3 spare 7001 sub drivers from Chet, I'll check mine when I get home today.

I've actually done a lot of testing this way on the DT 6.5" mids and 1" tweeters, as well as some of the combination arrays like the bpvx's. What I found I thought was interesting. The 6.5's are around 3 ohms and the tweeters are about 6. The whole bpvx array (just testing the resistance across the + and - terminal speaker wire connections) is like 2.7 ohms! The reason for this is that the bpvx uses a combination of series and parallel connections between all 6 drivers and the overall resistance the amp "sees" is 2.7 ohms. After finding this I switched my amps from 8 ohm output to 6 ohm and they run a LOT cooler now!
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post #17076 of 29304
4/30/10 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by headedforhighend View Post

Yes, set all speakers to small. The crossover you choose will be the result of trying different ones. Your setup is unique to your room and your ears so a little experimenting is best.
If your receiver allows for different crossovers on each channel, then that expands the possibilities further.
If I were to take a guess to get you in the ballpark, I would say 60Hz on all channels.
The powered woofers in your towers will still be very active. The internal crossover in the BP2004's front firing mid range driver rolls off to the towers bass woofer at 80Hz while the rear firing mid rolls off even higher due to the speakers design. Those 10" woofers will still be blending mid and upper bass into the front L/R channels nicely before the separate sub takes over.
The BP2004 will preform better as well as the rest of your system.

I assume by your comment above that the speaker internal xover output is actually sent to the internal amplifier's input rather than connected directly to the woofers as in a passive arrangement. In this case I still need to have the internal amp turned on all the time. True? Tks
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post #17077 of 29304
4/30/10 at 9:11am
To be honest, I bought my refurbished stuff off the EBAY seller. In fact, I drove down to the warehouse. I wouldn't really call it refurbished though. I would say it is NEW but without the warranty. The price is smoking hot! The EBAY seller is just selling new product which had the boxes damaged in shipping. They repackage it very nice, get Def Tech boxes. This is basically from the manufacturer. The corporate headquarters is very professional laid out. Def Tech can't sell the product new because they have to open to inspect and test the product after the containers are returned. I could not be happier. $385 cash for each BPVX and only $600 cash for the CLR3000. No Tax! I picked it up and did not have it delivered. No finger prints were even on the slick glossy black coverings.

Bought the 4 BPVX and CLR3000. Finally hooked it all up to my SC-25 and watched transformer 2 in 5.1 HD. The rears don't yet have speaker wire (in transit from monoprice). I was totally blown away... almost frightening how intense and cool the movie was. Even though I have seen it 5+ times, I felt like I was watching it for the first time. Eerie and totally intense. Spectacular. I cannot believe how awesome the sounds were. I am still in shock.

Debating on whether to buy the 7001s to replace my Infinity Overture 3's, which until now have been the cream of my system.

Thanks guys for the help and advice. I do appreciate it. I feel very good about my purchases and almost feel like one of the gang.

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post #17078 of 29304
4/30/10 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjeje View Post

What is the general consensus on this flick? Is the Audio as high-tech as the video? I heard that the plot is somewhat predictable, but the graphics made it worthwhile to see...I only have a 42" plasma with a PS3 for Bluray, so the video isn't as important to me as the audio...I guess what I wanna know is, do you guys think I should buy the disc?

In a word, yes. The whole thing is "high-tech," but yes, the video and audio are both top quality as well. It's visually stunning, the audio rocks and is well-mixed, and it's actually a pretty entertaining movie, too.

PS: The consensus on this flick is currently running about $2.7 billion. And it's well on its way to becoming the best-selling BD ever. That's a lot of "see it" votes.
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post #17079 of 29304
4/30/10 at 10:44am
Decided on the Mythos system for my theater room. What are your thoughts on this setup:
Mythos SPS fronts-2
Mythos 9 center-1
Mythos BPX sides-2 (since they will be placed in between the 2 rows of seats)
Mythos 6-2 rears

Do you think this is a good setup? Wanted the BPX instead of the Gems because of the dual directional facing.
Any thoughts or suggestions? The room size is about 18ft by 15ft.
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post #17080 of 29304
4/30/10 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipertec View Post

Decided on the Mythos system for my theater room. What are your thoughts on this setup:
Mythos SPS fronts-2
Mythos 9 center-1
Mythos BPX sides-2 (since they will be placed in between the 2 rows of seats)
Mythos 6-2 rears

Do you think this is a good setup? Wanted the BPX instead of the Gems because of the dual directional facing.
Any thoughts or suggestions? The room size is about 18ft by 15ft.


Sounds like a great setup! Probably just go with another set of Mythos 6 for the sides though, as the BPX aren't part of the Mythos line and won't match very well. The fronts are Mythos STS btw, but they are a great speaker! What are you driving it all with?
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post #17081 of 29304
4/30/10 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Sounds like a great setup! Probably just go with another set of Mythos 6 for the sides though, as the BPX aren't part of the Mythos line and won't match very well.

+1

Best not to mix up the two speaker lines.
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post #17082 of 29304
4/30/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Sounds like a great setup! Probably just go with another set of Mythos 6 for the sides though, as the BPX aren't part of the Mythos line and won't match very well. The fronts are Mythos STS btw, but they are a great speaker! What are you driving it all with?

With the Mythos 6 for the side, it will be pointing to the other wall. With the BPX, its angled, like a V shape. My installer is telling me that is better. Do you really think the 6 with straight facing is better for the sides? It will be placed directly in the middle of the two rows of seats.
Something like this:

0 0 -> rear Mythos 6
XXX -> last row of seats
0 0 -> side speakers (6 or BPX)
XXX -> front row of seats

_______ -> screen

Currently have a Sony ES series receiver but looking into the Marantz 6004 or the Integra 40.1...what do you think?
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post #17083 of 29304
4/30/10 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipertec View Post

With the Mythos 6 for the side, it will be pointing to the other wall. With the BPX, its angled, like a V shape. My installer is telling me that is better. Do you really think the 6 with straight facing is better for the sides? It will be placed directly in the middle of the two rows of seats.

It's not just a matter of what direction there are facing. The drivers should match so that the sound blends well between your speakers, and the BP uses different drivers than the Mythos line. Sound is not so directional that "pointing" to the other wall will be problematic. (All the other speakers will be facing one direction, too.) I think having different drivers on the sides, on the other hand, would be more of an issue.
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post #17084 of 29304
4/30/10 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royaljaguar View Post

To be honest, I bought my refurbished stuff off the EBAY seller. In fact, I drove down to the warehouse. I wouldn't really call it refurbished though. I would say it is NEW but without the warranty. The price is smoking hot! The EBAY seller is just selling new product which had the boxes damaged in shipping. They repackage it very nice, get Def Tech boxes. This is basically from the manufacturer. The corporate headquarters is very professional laid out. Def Tech can't sell the product new because they have to open to inspect and test the product after the containers are returned. I could not be happier. $385 cash for each BPVX and only $600 cash for the CLR3000. No Tax! I picked it up and did not have it delivered. No finger prints were even on the slick glossy black coverings.

Bought the 4 BPVX and CLR3000. Finally hooked it all up to my SC-25 and watched transformer 2 in 5.1 HD. The rears don't yet have speaker wire (in transit from monoprice). I was totally blown away... almost frightening how intense and cool the movie was. Even though I have seen it 5+ times, I felt like I was watching it for the first time. Eerie and totally intense. Spectacular. I cannot believe how awesome the sounds were. I am still in shock.

Debating on whether to buy the 7001s to replace my Infinity Overture 3's, which until now have been the cream of my system.

Thanks guys for the help and advice. I do appreciate it. I feel very good about my purchases and almost feel like one of the gang.


That is a smokin deal and the equip should leave your room in a pile of smoldering embers! My guess it that the 7001's would smoke those infinitys and not because of the powered sub, I'm just talking about the "upstairs" portion. I hooked my 7001's up to a good power supply and I literally could make myself deaf in less than a minute without them even breaking a sweat

What, if any, kind of sub are you running?

How are you powering your speakers?
Here's what I might do in your situation if you like the DT ebay store and especially since you live close enough to go there... I saw they sell bp30 and 7000sc empty cabinets (which are both identical to the 7001s except for the subs), you could pick up a pair and buy the mids and tweeters needed to fill em for $200 each tower and just leave the sub part empty. This way you would have a pair of "bp30's" for ~$700 and with the $1500 or so you saved not buying 7001's you could get yourself a big ol honkin sub which in the long run I would think would get you to that next level of sound all the while spending less money.

I have a 7001, 3000, bpvx 5.1 setup and when I go to 7.1 I'm sure I will get "bp30's" in the above manner. It might seem like a stretch but I bought raw materials from ebay and made my own bpvx's for $250 each and they are insanely awesome! I figure with the cabinets already made it should be a walk in the park! (Don't forget to buy the crossovers too)
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post #17085 of 29304
4/30/10 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideofpotatos View Post

and 7000sc empty cabinets (which are both identical to the 7001s except for the subs), you could pick up a pair and buy the mids and tweeters needed to fill em for $200 each tower and just leave the sub part empty. This way you would have a pair of "bp30's" for ~$700 and with the $1500 or so you saved not buying 7001's you could get yourself a big ol honkin sub which in the long run I would think would get you to that next level of sound all the while spending less money.

i posted that idea here a few times in the past. chet said it's probably not a good idea to try and make bp30s using 7000 or 7001 parts

he never really said why. i have to try and find the email

perhaps the sub section adds to the over-all impedance of the speaker as a whole ?

just a guess
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post #17086 of 29304
4/30/10 at 12:50pm
took some digging but i found some emails

first one was asking about parts prices. i was wondering what it would cost to build bp30s and clr2000 using parts from 7001 & clr3000

Thanks for your recent email to Definitive Technology. Replacement parts for the BP7001sc and CLR3000 loudspeakers are available for the following prices:

BP7001sc tweeter: $70.00 each
BP7001sc midrange: $90.00 each
BP7001sc crossover: $50.00 each
BP7001sc cabinet: $250.00 each

CLR3000 tweeter: $70.00 each
CLR3000 midrange: $90.00 each
CLR3000 crossover: $40.00 each
CLR3000 cabinet: $175.00 each

then i asked:

thank you chet. do you think i could make my own home made bp30s with
those parts?

if i bought the 7001 cabinets, mid drivers, tweeters and the crossover
and used a 80hz crossover in my receiver. (the sub drivers and amp
section would be left empty) do you think that would that work?

i had the same idea with the clr3000 parts to make my own clr2000

thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

*chet's response*

I wouldn't be inclined to build a set of BP7001scs or CLR3000 (minus the subwoofers....)

There always ends up being hidden costs.....like end caps and grilles....(I'd be more inclined to purchase a set of used speakers - in good shape.)

Thanks,
Chet Pelkowski
Definitive Technology

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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post #17087 of 29304
4/30/10 at 12:52pm
so it looks like it was only a cost thing. but now that you can get parts at such good prices it might be worth it

keep in mind they wouldn't have the same extension as bp30s

bp30s have a port that's tuned low probably in the mid to low 20s. the 7000 7001 3000 2000 towers keep the mids in smaller sealed chambers so you would probably have to cross them higher around 80hz or wherever they are naturally crossed when sold as a complete tower
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post #17088 of 29304
4/30/10 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

In a word, yes. The whole thing is "high-tech," but yes, the video and audio are both top quality as well. It's visually stunning, the audio rocks and is well-mixed, and it's actually a pretty entertaining movie, too.

PS: The consensus on this flick is currently running about $2.7 billion. And it's well on its way to becoming the best-selling BD ever. That's a lot of "see it" votes.

I would just borrow the blu-ray from one of your friends who have already bought it.

I saw the Blu-Ray release on Monday night, graphics were the latest and greatest for 2010 and the sound was nice everywhere as to be expected, however it was not 3-D and it was a DTS-HD 5.1 release, and not 7.1.

It was missing the 3-d immersion that you would want to experience, given the previous 3-d theater offerings.

Supposedly, later this year there will be a 3-d version released for 3-d ready HDTVs, receivers, players...hopefully there will be a release that allows you the 3-d experience where they include the 3-d glasses and the disc is playable on your current blu-ray player and HDTV.

But, then again, it's not the worst $20 you'll ever spend in your life if you do buy it.
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post #17089 of 29304
4/30/10 at 1:04pm
Thanks for diggin that up otk. Yeah, I can't think of any protocol breach in making one's own "homemade" stuff with all the same parts. It was probably a combination of cost at that time and the port tuning thing with the bp30's. To eliminate any chance of error one could use a 7000 or 7001 tower which has the sealed upper portion and just buy the bpvx crossover which is intended for those six drivers to be affixed in a sealed enclosure. That would cover the bases on both ends as it would eliminate any possible influences a "missing" subwoofer might have on an appropriate 7000 or 7001 crossover.

For that matter, how would a pair of bpvx's work as fronts? I'm imagining them arranged so that the backs are facing away from each other. Would you guys expect a bpvx would match say a 7001sc (sub turned off of course) in an A/B comparison?

In case you can't tell I love the 6 .5" mid M-T-M d'appolito bipolar array but hate that DT is cornering us into buying only 7000sc's to get them.
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post #17090 of 29304
4/30/10 at 1:20pm
You guys are way more studly in the A/V area than me as far as building speakers, crossovers... and pretty much everything else. I am merely getting my feet wet and am getting hooked fast, cha ching!!!

The Infinity Overture 3's do have 2 built in powered subs in each speaker... at 6 1/2", lol!!! There is some bass there though... much more than none. The 7000s look a bit too pricey for me for the 14" woofers. I will pick up subs as I go along. Right now, I believe I have a 10" Klipsch sub, retail probably around $500 8-10 yrs ago.

All my equipment will have been upgraded once I get the 7001s. As of now, I have a complete 5.1 system (non HD) just collecting dust.

Britt
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post #17091 of 29304
4/30/10 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

took some digging but i found some emails
BP7001sc tweeter: $70.00 each
BP7001sc midrange: $90.00 each
BP7001sc crossover: $50.00 each
BP7001sc cabinet: $250.00 each

CLR3000 tweeter: $70.00 each
CLR3000 midrange: $90.00 each
CLR3000 crossover: $40.00 each
CLR3000 cabinet: $175.00 each

When I built mine I got the four 6.5" mids and two 1" tweeters for $200 total!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royaljaguar View Post

You guys are way more studly in the A/V area than me as far as building speakers, crossovers... and pretty much everything else. I am merely getting my feet wet and am getting hooked fast, cha ching!!!

Well, for me, sometimes the possible cost benefit FORCES a learning curve and I just dive in ready to accept failure. Every once in a while this mentality pays off
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post #17092 of 29304
4/30/10 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideofpotatos View Post

Thanks for diggin that up otk. Yeah, I can't think of any protocol breach in making one's own "homemade" stuff with all the same parts. It was probably a combination of cost at that time and the port tuning thing with the bp30's. To eliminate any chance of error one could use a 7000 or 7001 tower which has the sealed upper portion and just buy the bpvx crossover which is intended for those six drivers to be affixed in a sealed enclosure. That would cover the bases on both ends as it would eliminate any possible influences a "missing" subwoofer might have on an appropriate 7000 or 7001 crossover.

that's a good idea using the bpvx crossover to make a home made bp30

i would just double check the ohms. they should be the same driver but ya never know. i know sometimes they use different part numbers because the basket is shaped a bit different to make it fit in different types of enclosures but as far as the voice coils and all over components that make up the actual driver, they should all be the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideofpotatos View Post

For that matter, how would a pair of bpvx's work as fronts? I'm imagining them arranged so that the backs are facing away from each other. Would you guys expect a bpvx would match say a 7001sc (sub turned off of course) in an A/B comparison?

i think someone did a comparison a while back and didn't like the bpvx as a mains but my memory is getting a bit fuzzy on that. i bet they would be very good if used mainly for HT. not sure how well they would image for music. they are very dynamic speakers and put out a huge powerful clean sound. would probably be awesome as main left/right speakers for HT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideofpotatos View Post

In case you can't tell I love the 6 .5" mid M-T-M d'appolito bipolar array but hate that DT is cornering us into buying only 7000sc's to get them.

yup. i've been preaching that for years that def tech should bring the bp30 back (and the clr2000). now that it has such a good rep on the internets, i bet a come-back of the bp30 would be big

bp30s all the way around with a couple of trinitys (or ID subs of your choice)
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post #17093 of 29304
4/30/10 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideofpotatos View Post

When I built mine I got the four 6.5" mids and two 1" tweeters for $200 total!


Well, for me, sometimes the possible cost benefit FORCES a learning curve and I just dive in ready to accept failure. Every once in a while this mentality pays off

awesome price
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post #17094 of 29304
4/30/10 at 3:37pm
Hey guys. I was just reading up on the last couple of hours here and I'm wondering why all the talk about building BP30s out of 7001 cabinets. Forgive me if I missed something but why wouldn't you just by the BP30 cabinets and build them? They are listed for sale. Of course, like OTK stated, there's more to building them than just cabinets and drivers. I thought about it too. That's before I picked up a pair of used ones on craigslist. I paid $200 for the pair. Of course the grill socks were disgusting and the tops had chips on several corners but those can be replaced. The drivers were fine and they sound great.
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post #17095 of 29304
4/30/10 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by indecisive man View Post

Hey guys. I was just reading up on the last couple of hours here and I'm wondering why all the talk about building BP30s out of 7001 cabinets. Forgive me if I missed something but why wouldn't you just by the BP30 cabinets and build them? They are listed for sale. Of course, like OTK stated, there's more to building them than just cabinets and drivers. I thought about it too. That's before I picked up a pair of used ones on craigslist. I paid $200 for the pair. Of course the grill socks were disgusting and the tops had chips on several corners but those can be replaced. The drivers were fine and they sound great.

if you can get all the bp30 parts then by all means that would be the best way to go
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post #17096 of 29304
4/30/10 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

never heard of a 30 ohm subwoofer driver. i wonder if it was a typo and he really meant 3 ohms

if it really is 30 ohms, i would imagine it's a really easy driver to drive. it would present the amp a really light load

there shouldn't be a problem. i'm just wondering why the amp on the 7001 is so powerful

first i would confirm that chet really did mean 30 ohms then i would ask in the DIY forum if using an amp that was meant for a 4 ohm driver can be used with a 30 ohm driver

i still think he meant 3 ohm. that would make a lot more sense but anything is possible i guess

Yep I checked with Chet and he meant a 30 ohm driver (why he spelled it out in his original response) I thought it was wierd too cause that seems aweful high, from what I have gathered, 30 ohm driver would be easy to drive but require alot of power to equal the bass output of a standard 4 ohm driver and 300 watt amp.

My concern is since using this as a mid bass sub (40-80Hz) will I need more than 300 watts. But will ask in the DIY forum, thanks.
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post #17097 of 29304
4/30/10 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipertec View Post

Decided on the Mythos system for my theater room. What are your thoughts on this setup:
Mythos SPS fronts-2
Mythos 9 center-1
Mythos BPX sides-2 (since they will be placed in between the 2 rows of seats)
Mythos 6-2 rears

Do you think this is a good setup? Wanted the BPX instead of the Gems because of the dual directional facing.
Any thoughts or suggestions? The room size is about 18ft by 15ft.

I agree that the BPX might not be a good match. I would look at the Gems again. A happy medium between the BPX and Mythos 6 is a pairl of GEM XL's. They will obviously match the other Mythos Speakers and they have a "left/right" midrange layout (I didn't realize they were constructed that way until I auditioned them).

I was in your exact shoes a few months ago. I wanted the bipolar BPX to match my BP2004's. I really ended up liking the GEMS (w/ pivot ball mount). It also gave me an excuse to upgrade my BP2004's to STS's w/ MYTHOS 9 center.

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post #17098 of 29304
4/30/10 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by indecisive man View Post

Hey guys. I was just reading up on the last couple of hours here and I'm wondering why all the talk about building BP30s out of 7001 cabinets. Forgive me if I missed something but why wouldn't you just by the BP30 cabinets and build them? They are listed for sale. Of course, like OTK stated, there's more to building them than just cabinets and drivers. I thought about it too. That's before I picked up a pair of used ones on craigslist. I paid $200 for the pair. Of course the grill socks were disgusting and the tops had chips on several corners but those can be replaced. The drivers were fine and they sound great.

I paid $200 for the pair
I hate you! Ok, I don't hate you but I'm very jealous.
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post #17099 of 29304
4/30/10 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatwilsonguy View Post

I agree that the BPX might not be a good match. I would look at the Gems again. A happy medium between the BPX and Mythos 6 is a pairl of GEM XL's. They will obviously match the other Mythos Speakers and they have a "left/right" midrange layout (I didn't realize they were constructed that way until I auditioned them).

I was in your exact shoes a few months ago. I wanted the bipolar BPX to match my BP2004's. I really ended up liking the GEMS (w/ pivot ball mount). It also gave me an excuse to upgrade my BP2004's to STS's w/ MYTHOS 9 center.


What about the GEM XL? they look promising, I Have only used the regular GEM tho
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post #17100 of 29304
4/30/10 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lodit View Post

.....It was missing the 3-d immersion that you would want to experience, given the previous 3-d theater offerings.

Well....yeah. That 3D immersion experience requires a screen size that essentially fills your field of vision. I saw it twice on an 80' high IMAX screen and it did indeed look awesome- the only 3D I've yet seen that was actually worth the premium ticket price. I don't believe it's physically possible to replicate that experience in a home theater, and I don't expect to waste a penny trying.
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