or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Definitive Owners Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Definitive Owners Thread - Page 910

post #27271 of 30948
Don't know how much of this has been covered, but I just discovered the StudioMonitors 45/55, and have been reading alot of positive reviews.
But how would they compare to other popular standmount speakers?
In my case they are to be mounted directly on the wall, so maybe the SM55's are most suitable due to the bass handling not being backwards.
Mostly wondering how they would compare to
Monitor Audo BX2
Tannoy Mercury V1
DALI Zensor 1
Boston Acoustics A25
KEF Q100/R100.

Higly appreciated if someone had done some listening tests between theese!

/Regards Evert
post #27272 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDKing View Post

Few questions, I'm looking into getting a PC1000, PS1000, 2 PM1000s, and 2 PM800s for the rears. My problem is, I don't have the space to have the fronts level with the center. Would mounting the fronts on the wall and directionally pointing them towards my couch be detrimental to sound quality? Also, does anyone have difficulty using banana plugs while mounting to a wall? The space seems like it could be a problem. Thanks.
Hello HD, it is pretty common not to have the center not being level with the L&R, so there are no worries there. Yes, angling the L&R toward your listening space can be helpful. Do experiment with that if you can. In smaller rooms especially it often works out best to angle them to a point behind your main listening space, rather than directly at it. But each room has a different mix of reverberation and absorption, so play with it a bit and let us know where it sounds great. Best, Joe
post #27273 of 30948
First time poster... first time buyer! smile.gif

Wondering what you guys think of the following: Attached is a picture of the room where I'm setting up my HT system. It's kinda badly shaped, but I can't move or make new walls. The TV and speakers will go on the left hand side and as you can see its a ways back to the where I want to put the rear speakers (rears are going against the wall so my wife will be happy). So, I'm thinking of going with the BP-8080 for the fronts, CS-8080 for the center and BP-8060 for the rears since they're so far back.

Any thoughts or suggestions on that setup?


post #27274 of 30948
If that's what you have to work with so be it...I own the 8060's myself and with your towers being bipolar you won't want your rears to be too flush...and remember you need AC power for each tower and the center.Welcome to the world of deftech!...smile.gif
post #27275 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsGunner View Post

First time poster... first time buyer! smile.gif
Wondering what you guys think of the following: Attached is a picture of the room where I'm setting up my HT system. It's kinda badly shaped, but I can't move or make new walls. The TV and speakers will go on the left hand side and as you can see its a ways back to the where I want to put the rear speakers (rears are going against the wall so my wife will be happy). So, I'm thinking of going with the BP-8080 for the fronts, CS-8080 for the center and BP-8060 for the rears since they're so far back.
Any thoughts or suggestions on that setup?

If the rears are going against a wall, I'd avoid going with bipolar towers. If you can have the towers off the wall a ways, then they can sound great, but you need to give them room to work.

An alternate scenario that could keep the wife happy and save a couple bucks, while still being very powerful would be some of the new Studio Monitors, such as the SM65. wall mounted or on stands. Plenty of dynamics, well matched to the voicing of the BP series, and don't have the same space or power cord restrictions as the active towers. Take the savings and roll it into a sub, which will give you a more powerful viewing experience, or your savings account.

Just playing with MSRP's here (forum rules) and assuming you live in the lower 48 states in the US:

Proposed:
BP-8080ST: $3,000 (pr)
CS-8080HD: $ 1,000
BP-8060ST: $2,000 (pr)
Total: $6,000

vs:
BP-8080ST: $3,000 (pr)
CS-8080HD: $ 1,000
SM65: $900 (pr)
Stands: ~$100 (example)
Sub: SVS PB12-NSD for $769 shipped or Power Sound Audio XV15 for $800 (shipped) or Hsu VTF-15 in black oak for $1,018 shipped.
Total (depending on sub) $5,769 - $6,018.
post #27276 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

If the rears are going against a wall, I'd avoid going with bipolar towers. If you can have the towers off the wall a ways, then they can sound great, but you need to give them room to work.
An alternate scenario that could keep the wife happy and save a couple bucks, while still being very powerful would be some of the new Studio Monitors, such as the SM65. wall mounted or on stands. Plenty of dynamics, well matched to the voicing of the BP series, and don't have the same space or power cord restrictions as the active towers. Take the savings and roll it into a sub, which will give you a more powerful viewing experience, or your savings account.
Just playing with MSRP's here (forum rules) and assuming you live in the lower 48 states in the US:
Proposed:
BP-8080ST: $3,000 (pr)
CS-8080HD: $ 1,000
BP-8060ST: $2,000 (pr)
Total: $6,000
vs:
BP-8080ST: $3,000 (pr)
CS-8080HD: $ 1,000
SM65: $900 (pr)
Stands: ~$100 (example)
Sub: SVS PB12-NSD for $769 shipped or Power Sound Audio XV15 for $800 (shipped) or Hsu VTF-15 in black oak for $1,018 shipped.
Total (depending on sub) $5,769 - $6,018.

THIS.
post #27277 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

If the rears are going against a wall, I'd avoid going with bipolar towers. If you can have the towers off the wall a ways, then they can sound great, but you need to give them room to work.
An alternate scenario that could keep the wife happy and save a couple bucks, while still being very powerful would be some of the new Studio Monitors, such as the SM65. wall mounted or on stands. Plenty of dynamics, well matched to the voicing of the BP series, and don't have the same space or power cord restrictions as the active towers. Take the savings and roll it into a sub, which will give you a more powerful viewing experience, or your savings account.
Just playing with MSRP's here (forum rules) and assuming you live in the lower 48 states in the US:
Proposed:
BP-8080ST: $3,000 (pr)
CS-8080HD: $ 1,000
BP-8060ST: $2,000 (pr)
Total: $6,000
vs:
BP-8080ST: $3,000 (pr)
CS-8080HD: $ 1,000
SM65: $900 (pr)
Stands: ~$100 (example)
Sub: SVS PB12-NSD for $769 shipped or Power Sound Audio XV15 for $800 (shipped) or Hsu VTF-15 in black oak for $1,018 shipped.
Total (depending on sub) $5,769 - $6,018.


Thanks for the feedback. I'm in Canada and the MSRPs are very close.

I hadn't considered the bipolars needing space behind them. I did some measuring and I got my wife to give her opinion on what looks better, and believe it or not, she is ok with leaving up to 15" behind the rear speakers! Not only that, she prefers the towers' look relative to the bookshelves on stands. Go figure...

Is 15" good enough? I've attached another picture that more accurately shows the back wall. The back wall goes further back about 5" to the right of the right rear. Also, there are power outlets everywhere so powering up the towers won't be an issue.

I may still go with the SM65s with the sub if that is actually a better sound than the 8060STs. Would it? BTW, I was thinking of connecting the LFE out from the receiver to all four towers.... Does that make sense?

Regarding the center channel, does it make sense to go with BP-8040ST? The TV is mounted high enough that an 8040 will fit under it. That means going with 2x8080s, 2x8060s, and 1x8040. Not that I want to do this, but I'm just trying to figure out what configs may or may not work together.

post #27278 of 30948
Thanks for the feedback. I'm in Canada and the MSRPs are very close.

I hadn't considered the bipolars needing space behind them. I did some measuring and I got my wife to give her opinion on what looks better, and believe it or not, she is ok with leaving up to 15" behind the rear speakers! Not only that, she prefers the towers' look relative to the bookshelves on stands. Go figure...

Is 15" good enough? I've attached another picture that more accurately shows the back wall. The back wall goes further back about 5" to the right of the right rear. Also, there are power outlets everywhere so powering up the towers won't be an issue.

I may still go with the SM65s with the sub if that is actually a better sound than the 8060STs. Would it? BTW, I was thinking of connecting the LFE out from the receiver to all four towers.... Does that make sense?

Regarding the center channel, does it make sense to go with BP-8040ST? The TV is mounted high enough that an 8040 will fit under it. That means going with 2x8080s, 2x8060s, and 1x8040. Not that I want to do this, but I'm just trying to figure out what configs may or may not work together.

post #27279 of 30948
Don't go with a less powerful center than your fronts. You will regret that.
post #27280 of 30948
LarsGunner.

First, I'd be sure to get CS-8080HD if you are going for the 8080 towers. The center is important, much more so than the surrounds, and should receive a priority in budgeting/planning for a system that is looking at a lot/mostly HT use. I would highly recommend against scrimping in this category.

As for the bipolar surrounds, 15" may work, but it is still very close. When I ran bipolar towers front and back, what worked best in my room was about 30"-36." I did not have this series of speakers, so it may be somewhat different, but it at least gives you an idea.

As for the surrounds/sub, all I can say is that it it were my system or a system I was setting up for a friend, I'd go with the SM65's and a good sub. Easier to deal with, and a much more involving movie experience than just using the towers for LFE. Plus, you can place the sub where it will work best (room modes/nodes) where as the towers are a little less flexible in this regard. Just my $.02. Either way, it should be a fun system.
post #27281 of 30948
Thanks, guys. Much appreciated. I think I'll scrap the idea of using towers in the back.

One more question: I can also scrap the rear speakers' location as I've been showing in the pictures, and go with a 7.1 setup using 4 ceiling speakers for the surrounds and backs. Any thoughts on whether that would sound good?

The sofa will be at the wall, so I can't put anything to left of the sofa.
post #27282 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsGunner View Post

Thanks, guys. Much appreciated. I think I'll scrap the idea of using towers in the back.
One more question: I can also scrap the rear speakers' location as I've been showing in the pictures, and go with a 7.1 setup using 4 ceiling speakers for the surrounds and backs. Any thoughts on whether that would sound good?
The sofa will be at the wall, so I can't put anything to left of the sofa.
Hello Lars, I would echo the importance of the center channel - that's key! But I also lobby for you to reconsider the towers for the rear. Yes, the SM 65 will sound great, but they won't have the bottom end you can get from a pair of BP 8060ST or 8040ST. The BP 8000 series speakers have the Forward Focused Bipolar Array technology that our older bipolar's don't, and are more placement friendly. The fact that you have the spousal Ok to be 15" away from the wall is plenty to get a good result from them.
I absolutely agree with Snow that whatever you do, leave enough in the budget for a good subwoofer, or two if you can afford them. That bottom octave is key to the home theater experience, and to much of the music that I love. We have sold out of the SC 6000 and SC 4000 several times this summer. Our dealers and customers are reacting very positively to them, and they have a much greater spousal acceptance factor than some of the larger-box subs that are in the same price range.
Last point - I love 7.1 systems, but in-ceilng speakers are, in my view, the correct answer when you cannot install cabinet speakers. You are not faced with that dilemma. Whatever you do, this is going to be a cool sounding system! Best regards, Joe
post #27283 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_kjellgren View Post

Don't know how much of this has been covered, but I just discovered the StudioMonitors 45/55, and have been reading alot of positive reviews.
But how would they compare to other popular standmount speakers?
In my case they are to be mounted directly on the wall, so maybe the SM55's are most suitable due to the bass handling not being backwards.
Mostly wondering how they would compare to
Monitor Audo BX2
Tannoy Mercury V1
DALI Zensor 1
Boston Acoustics A25
KEF Q100/R100.
Higly appreciated if someone had done some listening tests between theese!
/Regards Evert
Hi Everett, I vote for the SM 45 and 55 smile.gif
post #27284 of 30948
Joe, can you comment as to the differences between the SM350/450 series and the newer SM45/55 models? I own both the 350 and the 450s and like them a lot.
post #27285 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Joe, can you comment as to the differences between the SM350/450 series and the newer SM45/55 models? I own both the 350 and the 450s and like them a lot.
Sure Eli, the 350 and 450 are fun speakers. But they were also designed a decade ago. The new series updates: better cosmetics / aesthetic appearance; second-generation BDSS mid-bass drivers for better detail and imaging; Linear Response waveguide for better imaging; re-voiced tweeter and more sophisticated crossover network, so the mid-high end blend is smoother; curved front baffle for better imaging...among other things! They are getting amazing reviews. Check it out at www.definitivetech.com. Thanks Eli - best, Joe
post #27286 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeatdefinitive View Post

Hi Everett, I vote for the SM 45 and 55 smile.gif

Ok, any comment on the SM45 vs the SM55 in the regards of mounting them directly on the wall? From what I've learned, the SM45's have the base port on the backside, so maybe those aren't such a good idea?

/Evert
post #27287 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_kjellgren View Post

Ok, any comment on the SM45 vs the SM55 in the regards of mounting them directly on the wall? From what I've learned, the SM45's have the base port on the backside, so maybe those aren't such a good idea?
/Evert
Hi Everett, the SM 55 has the bass radiator on top. You are right, the SM 45 has a port on the rear. So if you are mounting them directly on the wall the SM 55 would be a better bet. Of course it is also the superior product smile.gif. I hope this helps - best, Joe
post #27288 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeatdefinitive View Post

Hello Lars, I would echo the importance of the center channel - that's key! But I also lobby for you to reconsider the towers for the rear. Yes, the SM 65 will sound great, but they won't have the bottom end you can get from a pair of BP 8060ST or 8040ST. The BP 8000 series speakers have the Forward Focused Bipolar Array technology that our older bipolar's don't, and are more placement friendly. The fact that you have the spousal Ok to be 15" away from the wall is plenty to get a good result from them.
I absolutely agree with Snow that whatever you do, leave enough in the budget for a good subwoofer, or two if you can afford them. That bottom octave is key to the home theater experience, and to much of the music that I love. We have sold out of the SC 6000 and SC 4000 several times this summer. Our dealers and customers are reacting very positively to them, and they have a much greater spousal acceptance factor than some of the larger-box subs that are in the same price range.
Last point - I love 7.1 systems, but in-ceilng speakers are, in my view, the correct answer when you cannot install cabinet speakers. You are not faced with that dilemma. Whatever you do, this is going to be a cool sounding system! Best regards, Joe

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. This is a noob question: why do I need external subs when the towers have builtin subs? Alternatively, if I buy subs, why do I need towers with subs in them?

Lets say I go with the towers for the rears, can I eventually turn the setup into a 7.1 system? If so, what speakers would I add? The reason I'm asking is to future proof my purchase so I can reuse the speakers if we move to a house with a better HT room (or if I finish the basement and add a proper HT room).

Lets say I get spousal approval for cabinet speakers for the sides and rears. Do you think it's better to do a 7.1 setup with cabinet speakers vs. a 5.1 setup with the towers in the rears?

Sorry for the mass of questions.... there's so much to learn and I'm trying to cram a PhD worth of research before I make a decision. smile.gif
post #27289 of 30948
sorry... double post
post #27290 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsGunner View Post

This is a noob question: why do I need external subs when the towers have built in subs? Alternatively, if I buy subs, why do I need towers with subs in them?


Two primary reasons:
1) While the bass units ("subs") in the towers can go low, they pale in comparison to what a powerful external sub can do. The difference is not subtle.
2) You can place a subwoofer where it performs best for bass, which is not normally where speakers perform best for the rest of the audio spectrum. Placement has a huge effect on speakers and subs performance.

As for your second question here, their is much debate on the size and capabilities needed for sub/sat systems. To keep jargon to a minimum, I have found it easier to get a dynamic, well blended system with larger speakers than smaller, particularly through the mid-bass region. It is not that it can't be done, or that their aren't speakers that are designed for just such an application, but that it s easier.

Beyond that, their are setup schemes such as Earl Geddes, which rely on multiple bass sources and the larger speakers can be useful in these. Other people also prefer to just listen to towers with no subs for music. In the end, there are a lot of reasons people will be drawn to such setups, it is up to the buyer to determine what they want. In that vein, go to a local Def Tech dealer and have them demo the towers by themselves, towers with a good sub and using appropriate bass management (easier to do if they are not trying to control everything through a demonstrators switch panel), and to smaller speakers such as the SM65 with a sub (or two) and see which you prefer.
post #27291 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsGunner View Post

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. This is a noob question: why do I need external subs when the towers have builtin subs? Alternatively, if I buy subs, why do I need towers with subs in them?
Lets say I go with the towers for the rears, can I eventually turn the setup into a 7.1 system? If so, what speakers would I add? The reason I'm asking is to future proof my purchase so I can reuse the speakers if we move to a house with a better HT room (or if I finish the basement and add a proper HT room).
Lets say I get spousal approval for cabinet speakers for the sides and rears. Do you think it's better to do a 7.1 setup with cabinet speakers vs. a 5.1 setup with the towers in the rears?
Sorry for the mass of questions.... there's so much to learn and I'm trying to cram a PhD worth of research before I make a decision. smile.gif
Hi Lars, no worries about noob questions. There is a lot to think about, so stay focused on how good your system is going to sound, and you won't get overwhelmed by the options. In truth you don't "need" a subwoofer with our powered towers. The reason for their existence is partly the fact that a good number of HT buyers simply won't purchase a sub. There is no room for one, or no aesthetically sensible way to get it into the system. A system without a sub can sound pretty weak, but our powered towers have plenty of bass for such situations. That said, see Snow's comments on why it's even better if you can add a good subwoofer. Snow also nicely addressed your second question. As good as a pure Sub/Sat system such as our ProCinema products can sound, the powered towers do such a great job of going deep that the blend can be really seamless. I hope this helps - best, Joe
post #27292 of 30948
Hello Definitive Technology fans, you might want to check out our Facebook page for a chance to win a SoloCinema XTR. Enjoy - best, Joe
post #27293 of 30948
5.1 recommend,




I have a 10x14 room with a 10' high ceiling, one long wall is open to other space.

Went to BB today listened to 4 others brands, my wife & I both liked DT's

I would like your recommendations rather than a salesmen at BB.

30% music 70% tv/movies, no gaming.

I listened to
A 1000 ctr with SM55's L/R
800 surrounds
1000 sub, yes I know others can be used.

question on this size room is the sm55 to much?, thinking sm45's
center what about the 2000 and or the 8040HD
also the 800's were tiny???

keeping in mind the size of the room open on one side and a ceiling 10' high.

tks

Bob
post #27294 of 30948
Went to BestBuy and auditioned several Definitive towers and liked the BP-8060's. I also listened to and ended up loving the B&W CM8's the best. I was sold on those until I logged into Crutchfield yesterday. The current deal is if you buy 2 BP-8060ST's, you get 2 free SR-8040BP surrounds and a CS-8040HD center. Seems like an awesome deal. I'd be upgrading from a 6 year old set of Klipsch Qunitets.... The B&W's were awesome and pure beauty but I would eventually want to upgrade my center and rears so this might be the deal for me....

Just curious on other's opinions before I pull the trigger....
post #27295 of 30948
That's an incredible deal man. I wouldn't hesitate!
post #27296 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo2012 View Post

5.1 recommend,

I have a 10x14 room with a 10' high ceiling, one long wall is open to other space.
Went to BB today listened to 4 others brands, my wife & I both liked DT's
I would like your recommendations rather than a salesmen at BB.
30% music 70% tv/movies, no gaming.
I listened to
A 1000 ctr with SM55's L/R
800 surrounds
1000 sub, yes I know others can be used.
question on this size room is the sm55 to much?, thinking sm45's
center what about the 2000 and or the 8040HD
also the 800's were tiny???
keeping in mind the size of the room open on one side and a ceiling 10' high.
tks
Bob

Found A BB today that had the 45's and an 8040, that's the combo for us, still not 100% sure of the 800's for rears.

Shortly after I came home Chet from DefTec, emailed and kinda confirmed what we found in listening to them.

I think I'll get the HSU sub.

Now onto Receiver selection.
post #27297 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo2012 View Post

Found A BB today that had the 45's and an 8040, that's the combo for us, still not 100% sure of the 800's for rears.
Shortly after I came home Chet from DefTec, emailed and kinda confirmed what we found in listening to them.
I think I'll get the HSU sub.
Now onto Receiver selection.

Ya know you can get a pair of the 8060s and get an 8040 center and 8040 surrounds for the price of the 8060s. It's a killer deal and if you don't like or want the center or surrounds you could sell them.
post #27298 of 30948
well not ready yet, nor can I use those.

But it is a silly crazy deal
post #27299 of 30948
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsGunner View Post

This is a noob question: why do I need external subs when the towers have builtin subs? Alternatively, if I buy subs, why do I need towers with subs in them?
Lets say I go with the towers for the rears, can I eventually turn the setup into a 7.1 system? If so, what speakers would I add? The reason I'm asking is to future proof my purchase so I can reuse the speakers if we move to a house with a better HT room (or if I finish the basement and add a proper HT room).
Lets say I get spousal approval for cabinet speakers for the sides and rears. Do you think it's better to do a 7.1 setup with cabinet speakers vs. a 5.1 setup with the towers in the rears?
Sorry for the mass of questions.... there's so much to learn and I'm trying to cram a PhD worth of research before I make a decision. smile.gif

Greetings LarsGunner,
I haven't posted for a while yet was getting caught up this morning and felt compelled to jump in...biggrin.gif Hello all DT fans!
I've been a DT owner and fan since the early to mid-90s. You just can't go wrong with the powered towers - especially when considering a configuration of four. Yes, a standalone sub, or two, four or six,,,, biggrin.gif will trump many a speaker yet when it comes to bass and/or LFE its very "room" and individual dependent. Some crave the massive kick and movement of one or more great subs yet others find it truly "too much" (my wife and kids fall in that category). Most here will also agree that many times one sub given limited placement options just doesn't work out. I would not hesitate to leave a sub out of the config at this point and focus on the four or even six towers. Build a great full range 5.1/7.1 system then add more subs as your room or desires change. IMHO, even with your large room, you will find the combined 8080's and 8060's performing quite well in regards to the lower end. You may even find it optimum for your configuration etc.

As for distance off the wall. I would have to agree with Joe on this one, but will again admit it can be very room and of course personal preference dependent - yet 15 inches is plenty. I've had my different DT towers in several different rooms over the years, one as big as yours yet always found that anything over about 18-24 inches returned minimal results (I'm talking 90% HT use however). Currently my side surrounds are about 8-10 inches from the wall and my mains are about 12-14 inches. Angling/"toeing" them in a bit works wonders. I use DT UIW75s (in-walls) as rears given my small room and minimal real state behind my seating area etc.

LFE: I'm in the minority yet also run dedicated LFE cables to my four BP7000SC's. My CLR3000 is via speaker wire only (IE, dont use the CS powered driver as a sub). Given my configuration/components this gives me the best flexibility and configurability. If I ever did add standalone subs the LFE runs would go to them etc. Depending on your receiver / pre/pro it may not matter. But without dedicated subs, I myself have and would want LFE going to all the towers. Many receivers, regardless if "all" speakers are set to large, will only send the LFE to the "mains". You'll want it going to all four/six towers. So, if your receiver allows LFE to flow to "all speakers set to large," just speaker wire is sufficient. Just make sure you are utilizing the powered drivers in all towers for all of the low end, not just what is coming from "that channel" etc. Remember, LFE is its own channel.

Obviously budget is key, but your plan is sound. Go for a 5.1 config now with 8080s for mains, 8060s for rears and definitely the 8080 center! If the budget allowed I would even recommend four BP8080s and the CS8080. Or maybe later pick a pair of BP8080s for the side surrounds and move the 8060s to rear duty once your room allows a good 7.1 config etc.. Choices, choices - what fun. Enjoy!
biggrin.gif

Cheers
post #27300 of 30948
Thanks, KJ. Your input is much appreciated.

I went to listen to the 8080s again at the local audio store yesterday (8080STs and 8080 center with Anthem MRX 500 receiver). I always take Transformers Bluray with me to watch the first fight scene in Qatar. At first they had the center channel set at +2dB which made it way too loud. I had them set it to +0dB and the sound got better. But I could still pick out sounds from each speaker (i.e. the speakers didn't disappear).

I had listened to B&W CM9s and Totem Forests earlier in the day and with both of those setups, the speakers disappear and I was surrounded by guns blazing and tanks blowing up. Can I get the same feel from the def techs? It may be that the audio store hadn't set up the def tech properly (I know the B&Ws were just put together without any calibration or setup).
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Definitive Owners Thread