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Definitive Owners Thread - Page 955

post #28621 of 29314
2/25/13 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcook View Post

I went with the AVR 1713 and am very happy with it. I chose 1713 over 1913 as the 1713 has Audessey XT (as does the 2113) but the 1913 only Audessey non-XT.

With my Mythos 8's above the fireplace, I am currently auditioning a procenter 1000 (wife/placement issues) and have not been impressed yet but I'm giving it a chance to break in -- my initial REW measurements show > 10db drop in output below 150hz but Audessey set the crossover at 120hz. Once I get my sub I'll see if localization is an issue with such a high crossover with the sub in the rear.

Thanks for your input. I agree with you on the Audyssey XT; basically, it's why I thought the 2113 would be a better choice than the 1913. The 1713 also looks good, and is on the less expensive side. My only qualm is that the 1713 only supports 5.1, and I'm unsure whether or not this will be enough for the room I described.
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post #28622 of 29314
2/25/13 at 11:12pm
What is the best way to get in touch with Definitive to acquire a firmware update?

In this case, for the Solo Cinema XTR? I am having an odd audio muting/volume issue and want to update to latest firmware before troubleshooting further.
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post #28623 of 29314
2/26/13 at 8:22am
have you looked in your owner's manual? you can probably just call the support line....
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post #28624 of 29314
2/26/13 at 8:51am
Hi All --

I currently have a pair of Mythos STS for my fronts L/R and I'm using a Mythos 8 for my center. I've been without rears for some time and while visiting my local store they had a return pair of Mythos STS for an amazing price. I immediately bought them and brought them home for my rear to complete a 5.1 setup.

Unfortunately, I've tested numerous AVR settings / modes and a few different Blu Ray disks, but I get very little real audio out of the rears. I've tried Avatar, The Matrix, Avengers and a few others movies.

Am I wasting money on using the STS for rears for a mostly HT purpose? I guess I was expecting much more output from them to get immersion, but it seems that's not the case. Or, am I completely missing something and I should be getting much more sound?

Thanks!

I'm now debating returning these and just getting some Gem or Gem XL speakers for rears. I could almost get 2 pairs and do a full 7.1 for the STS pair price.
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post #28625 of 29314
2/26/13 at 9:30am
I have two sets of BP2004TLs in use, one in my living room and one in my recreation room. I bought the set of four used in June and have been enjoying them since. The living room setup replaced the fronts of a Wharfedale satellite system which was using a 8" 100 Watt sub rated to go down to 28-170 Hz. The BP2004TL is rated as 18 Hz – 30 kHz with a 250 Watt 10” subwoofer. So, I disconnected the external sub and followed the owner’s manual settings for the AVR as LARGE front and NO subwoofer.

I felt that I have been missing some of the lower frequency response since this upgrade. I just added RCA cables and played with Large/Small settings and crossover frequency settings and sub gain settings, but still no real difference.

Being an engineer, I decided it was time for investigating. I pulled out a tone generator and oscilloscope and started some testing. I do not have a SPL meter, but my ears are still quite responsive in the lower range. I used the scope to assure the input signal amplitude was constant (0.8 V p-p) and clean for all tests. I ran the test in both rooms (to the thrill of my family).

Here is what I found stepping through the frequency band from 50 Hz down to 18 Hz.

Using the RCA input to the 2004TL: There is a very perceivable drop of sound at 35 Hz and steady decline until 24 Hz where it becomes inaudible.

Using the speaker input by driving through the AVR: There is the same very perceivable drop of sound starting at 35 Hz and degrading until 29 Hz where it quickly disappears. (Yes, the signal into the speaker terminals was the same amplitude down to 18 Hz.)

In both set-ups: I can observe the 10” driver vibrating down to 18 Hz, but no perceivable sound without touching the rear gain control knob. I can turn the rear gain knob to full and hear sound and, at certain frequencies, rattle the duct work, so the internal sub amp seems to be passing the signal, but, the test is relative output for a fixed setting.

Then I ran some tests on my old Wharedale 8” sub using the line level input with the crossover knob at highest frequency (170 Hz according to manual), but, as expected, this setting proved to not make a difference. An obvious drop of sound began at 32 Hz, then a steady slow decline down to 18 Hz. But, this sound was louder. At 18 Hz, there was still very perceivable sound.

Result: The little 8” 100 Watt sub is back in the system to give back the extreme lows until I can afford a better sub. I set the sub’s crossover to the lowest setting of 70 Hz and I am now playing around with the AVR settings for best sound for music and movie effects.
I have a Polk PSW10 that is rated 35 Hz – 200 Hz at 50 Watts that I plan to test next. Who knows, this may provide better response below 35 Hz than the 2004TLs.

I know these are not actual SPL measurements, but they definitely show a sharp low frequency cut-off of 35 Hz for these speakers.
Has anyone else taken the time to do testing like this?
Do actual measurements for these powered woofer speaker systems exist somewhere?
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post #28626 of 29314
2/26/13 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorFla View Post

I just signed up for newegg email subscription. Any chance I will be offered the same deal? With that price, might be all I need to pull the trigger.

It was only for 24 hours, so the sale has ended already.


These speakers were gone in matter of few hours. I tried to buy them and it was out of stock in middle of Sunday. Good deal but required some luck too.
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post #28627 of 29314
2/26/13 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zentos View Post

Hi All --

I currently have a pair of Mythos STS for my fronts L/R and I'm using a Mythos 8 for my center. I've been without rears for some time and while visiting my local store they had a return pair of Mythos STS for an amazing price. I immediately bought them and brought them home for my rear to complete a 5.1 setup.

Unfortunately, I've tested numerous AVR settings / modes and a few different Blu Ray disks, but I get very little real audio out of the rears. I've tried Avatar, The Matrix, Avengers and a few others movies.

Am I wasting money on using the STS for rears for a mostly HT purpose? I guess I was expecting much more output from them to get immersion, but it seems that's not the case. Or, am I completely missing something and I should be getting much more sound?

Thanks!

I'm now debating returning these and just getting some Gem or Gem XL speakers for rears. I could almost get 2 pairs and do a full 7.1 for the STS pair price.

Not much sound comes out of the surrounds, compared to the center which handles most of the sound. Surrounds are more for ambiance, but you should still be able to tell the difference between all of the sound coming from in front of you compared to sound being all around you with the surrounds. Any Dobly Digital or DTS or Pro Logic II mode should have sound going to the surrounds though. Did you level match them with the rest of your speakers or run Audyssey, etc? They could be quieter than they should be if they weren't set up properly.
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post #28628 of 29314
2/26/13 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry L View Post

I have two sets of BP2004TLs in use, one in my living room and one in my recreation room. I bought the set of four used in June and have been enjoying them since. The living room setup replaced the fronts of a Wharfedale satellite system which was using a 8" 100 Watt sub rated to go down to 28-170 Hz. The BP2004TL is rated as 18 Hz – 30 kHz with a 250 Watt 10” subwoofer. So, I disconnected the external sub and followed the owner’s manual settings for the AVR as LARGE front and NO subwoofer.

I felt that I have been missing some of the lower frequency response since this upgrade. I just added RCA cables and played with Large/Small settings and crossover frequency settings and sub gain settings, but still no real difference.

Being an engineer, I decided it was time for investigating. I pulled out a tone generator and oscilloscope and started some testing. I do not have a SPL meter, but my ears are still quite responsive in the lower range. I used the scope to assure the input signal amplitude was constant (0.8 V p-p) and clean for all tests. I ran the test in both rooms (to the thrill of my family).

Here is what I found stepping through the frequency band from 50 Hz down to 18 Hz.

Using the RCA input to the 2004TL: There is a very perceivable drop of sound at 35 Hz and steady decline until 24 Hz where it becomes inaudible.

Using the speaker input by driving through the AVR: There is the same very perceivable drop of sound starting at 35 Hz and degrading until 29 Hz where it quickly disappears. (Yes, the signal into the speaker terminals was the same amplitude down to 18 Hz.)

In both set-ups: I can observe the 10” driver vibrating down to 18 Hz, but no perceivable sound without touching the rear gain control knob. I can turn the rear gain knob to full and hear sound and, at certain frequencies, rattle the duct work, so the internal sub amp seems to be passing the signal, but, the test is relative output for a fixed setting.

Then I ran some tests on my old Wharedale 8” sub using the line level input with the crossover knob at highest frequency (170 Hz according to manual), but, as expected, this setting proved to not make a difference. An obvious drop of sound began at 32 Hz, then a steady slow decline down to 18 Hz. But, this sound was louder. At 18 Hz, there was still very perceivable sound.

Result: The little 8” 100 Watt sub is back in the system to give back the extreme lows until I can afford a better sub. I set the sub’s crossover to the lowest setting of 70 Hz and I am now playing around with the AVR settings for best sound for music and movie effects.
I have a Polk PSW10 that is rated 35 Hz – 200 Hz at 50 Watts that I plan to test next. Who knows, this may provide better response below 35 Hz than the 2004TLs.

I know these are not actual SPL measurements, but they definitely show a sharp low frequency cut-off of 35 Hz for these speakers.
Has anyone else taken the time to do testing like this?
Do actual measurements for these powered woofer speaker systems exist somewhere?

Definitive overstates their FR a lot. I'm pretty sure the numbers they post are the numbers that can be detectable at all while playing, so they're numbers could be 40db down. If you search on this forum, you can find some -3dB numbers for some speakers and subs that are much higher than what Definitive states. I have a pair of BP2000's and my 15" subs don't do well below 40Hz either. I couldn't guess whether the 2004's or that little sub would be better, but neither get that low. It would take a big driver, big box, or expensive sub to play down to 18Hz. I find it hard to believe that 8" sub could have any meaningful output at 18Hz. If you want a better setup, I would get a quality 12 or 15" sub to pair with your towers. It would be able to get louder and lower than the towers, and you could cross the towers are 50,60,80Hz, whatever sounds good, and let the tower subs take care of the upper bass without straining to try to produce lower bass. From what I've read, it doesn't look like any Definitive towers do that well with lower bass. Most people with BP7000's I see cross them at 40Hz and let dedicated subs take care of below that.
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post #28629 of 29314
2/27/13 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cub4bearin View Post

These speakers were gone in matter of few hours. I tried to buy them and it was out of stock in middle of Sunday. Good deal but required some luck too.

Yes they always go fast,especially the DefTechs.
Those 40% off coupons don't happen all the time, so if you ever see one I'd jump on it right away,but be patient and you will see one.
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post #28630 of 29314
2/27/13 at 5:48am
The output of the small sub was not much, but it was there. There was, for all intentional purposes, no output from the 2004TL below 25 Hz. Hearing the 18-24 Hz from the 8" sub assured me that I could hear down that low.

The conclusion of this testing is that I get a better low bass response from the small 8" sub than I do from the 2004TL. When I read the specs and Def Tech literature, I was hopeful that I could get away without a sub, but now I will start lurking around the subwoofer threads of the AVS Forum.

Right now I have the two 2004TLs and the small sub connected to the AVR Sub Output. My concern is that everything pumps out strong from 40 Hz down to 35 Hz, then there is the quick drop off of the 2004TLs and this will result in a bump in the 35-40 Hz freq resp with this setup. My next experiment will be to run the small sub alone and just run speaker wire to the 2004TL an set them to SMALL, thus just using the 2004TLs as powered woofer speakers.
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post #28631 of 29314
2/27/13 at 11:14am
I am going to get the BP1.2X used, I read somewhere here where I can request for a bracket/mount and they will send it for free?
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post #28632 of 29314
3/1/13 at 5:58pm
Just got my 8060's delivered and hooked up. I used to have BP2000's that had a distinct left and right speaker, with the sub facing the opposite way in the setup. Are the new 8060's supposed to be the same or are they all made the same way with the sub drivers on the same side on all speakers?
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post #28633 of 29314
3/1/13 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slapshot View Post

Just got my 8060's delivered and hooked up. I used to have BP2000's that had a distinct left and right speaker, with the sub facing the opposite way in the setup. Are the new 8060's supposed to be the same or are they all made the same way with the sub drivers on the same side on all speakers?


Yes, the new 8000 series are identical in that the sub is on the same side.. As you mentioned "unlike the BP2000s." biggrin.gif

You'll have to let us know how they sound compared to the 2000s.

Congrats!
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post #28634 of 29314
3/1/13 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by badbadleroybrown View Post

Hi all,
New to posting in these boards, although I've used it as a reference to just about every A/V purchase I've made in the last 5 years. I haven't purchased a set in a while and just got a killer deal on (2) 8020's and the CS8040HD. But if i remember correctly when I purchased my 7002's, they were specifically L & R. I noticed the 8000 series didn't seem to be matched like that. My dealer checked his inventory and none of his stock were specifically labeled L or R. Is this correct? This thought just occurred to me as I was setting them up and i figured i'd ask you all before I shoot an email over to DefTech. Thanks for any help.
Hi Bad Leroy, you are correct that the L/R are no longer labeled that way. These can be used as L/C/R with no issue. Best regards, Joe
Edited by joeatdefinitive - 3/1/13 at 10:21pm
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post #28635 of 29314
3/1/13 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atalla View Post

What is the best way to get in touch with Definitive to acquire a firmware update?

In this case, for the Solo Cinema XTR? I am having an odd audio muting/volume issue and want to update to latest firmware before troubleshooting further.
Hi Atalla, get in touch with tech support via 1-800-228-7148, or info@definitivetech.com. Make sure to provide your serial number. TJ, Adam and Chet will get you handled. Best, Joe
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post #28636 of 29314
3/1/13 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeatdefinitive View Post

You can choose to aim the subwoofers in our 8000 series out, or toward the walls, or in, towards each other.

How is this possible? If the cabinets are the same, wouldn't one sub be aimed in and the other aimed out by default?
Unless you turned one around 180° and pointed the front at the wall.....eek.gif
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post #28637 of 29314
3/1/13 at 10:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

How is this possible? If the cabinets are the same, wouldn't one sub be aimed in and the other aimed out by default?
Unless you turned one around 180° and pointed the front at the wall.....eek.gif
Hey CEH, you are right! Brain cramp! That's what I get for answering posts after 5 hours sleep when I am jet-lagged (in Hong Kong today visiting our distributor here). Next time I'd better get a good night's sleep before posting...smile.gif
Thanks for pointing this out and I'll delete that part of the previous post. Best, Joe
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post #28638 of 29314
3/1/13 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

How is this possible? If the cabinets are the same, wouldn't one sub be aimed in and the other aimed out by default?
Unless you turned one around 180° and pointed the front at the wall.....eek.gif

Some prefer the single driver to the front. Not to mention its easier to get at the amp controls.



Jussssst kidding....biggrin.gif
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post #28639 of 29314
3/2/13 at 5:26am
I need some assistance please. I have followed this thread for over a year and greatly appreciate the help and guidance all have given. Recently I replaced my enitre 5.1 setup as follows.
New:
SM- 65 Front
8060HD Powered Center
Mythos Gem XL Rear Surrond
Super Cube II Sub
Pioneer Elite 7.1 - 110 Watts Per Channel
How should I setup the speakers in the reciever? Which ones large or small and all other pertinent settings. Wiring and setup guy says all large and retailer said Center large and subs small.
Help please.
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post #28640 of 29314
3/2/13 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcroadking View Post

I need some assistance please. I have followed this thread for over a year and greatly appreciate the help and guidance all have given. Recently I replaced my enitre 5.1 setup as follows.
New:
SM- 65 Front
8060HD Powered Center
Mythos Gem XL Rear Surrond
Super Cube II Sub
Pioneer Elite 7.1 - 110 Watts Per Channel
How should I setup the speakers in the reciever? Which ones large or small and all other pertinent settings. Wiring and setup guy says all large and retailer said Center large and subs small.
Help please.

I would say all small and let the sub do what its best at; the low end. THX recommended settings is all small with xover at 80hz. Play around a little with the xover; a 50 or 60hz xover point should do well with the SM 65 and 8060 center. Overall, trust your ears!!!biggrin.gif
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post #28641 of 29314
3/2/13 at 7:58am
Ratified that would work with other receivers but he has a Pioneer which has a universal crossover. So he can't adjust for each speaker. He has to go off his least capable speaker which is his Mythos Gem XL's. with that in mind I would set the speaker to small with a 100Hz crossover. Those gems don't dig deep trust me I know. He could use 80Hz but that would be real iffy.
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post #28642 of 29314
3/2/13 at 8:23am
Hi all, just wondering what is the closest that the BP tower speakers can be placed from a wall and still get the sound dispersion. I'm looking at the BP-10s, dont need built in subs, already have a 15" sub. Thanks guys!
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post #28643 of 29314
3/2/13 at 8:25am
When I owned BP-10's I found about a foot away did a pretty good job.
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post #28644 of 29314
3/2/13 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Hi all, just wondering what is the closest that the BP tower speakers can be placed from a wall and still get the sound dispersion. I'm looking at the BP-10s, dont need built in subs, already have a 15" sub. Thanks guys!

I ran my 10s anywhere from 6 to 12 inches from the wall. Each room can change things. Start out at about 18 inches then while listening slide each in several inches at a time and see if you notice a difference you "can't" live with.

- Since you're in tha planning stage just tell yourself you may want 12 inches but as close as 6 may work for ya.

Have fun
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post #28645 of 29314
3/2/13 at 8:44am
Yeah I just dont think it's gonna work. Even at 6 inches they will still be blocking my tv for the people sitting on my side couch. So I'm thinking its either the Monitor 65s or the STS towers which I can place basically as close to the wall as they will go. STS is a quite a bump in price though, frown.gif
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post #28646 of 29314
3/2/13 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcroadking View Post

I need some assistance please. I have followed this thread for over a year and greatly appreciate the help and guidance all have given. Recently I replaced my enitre 5.1 setup as follows.
New:
SM- 65 Front
8060HD Powered Center
Mythos Gem XL Rear Surrond
Super Cube II Sub
Pioneer Elite 7.1 - 110 Watts Per Channel
How should I setup the speakers in the reciever? Which ones large or small and all other pertinent settings. Wiring and setup guy says all large and retailer said Center large and subs small.
Help please.


Here we go, the old small vs large discussion - many a personal opinions on this topic.. biggrin.gif

I look at a crossover setting two ways, and I consider one more important. First and foremost I look at the crossover setting in the receiver not something to limit frequencies to the speaker due to thoughts of speaker damage or distortion; rather, a setting to best blend the subwoofer to the low/mids of the speaker etc. IE, I'm not trying to limit the speaker rather send specific freqs to the sub for better overall sound.

With powered DT towers like many of us have, it can be both however due to some of us feel the powered driver sounds/delivers tighter base when limited to say 40 or 60Hz. In your case with the SM, Gems and SCII (I don't claim to know the specs of either) you are trying to find that sweet spot were the lows/mids of the SMs blend well with the mid to upper capability of the SCII. The fact you have different capable speakers from front, center and rears just adds to the thought process. The thing to remember is each of your speakers have their own internal crossovers engineered/designed to best feed their respective driver/tweeters thus they are designed to operate independently full range/large regardless.

So after all my rambling, like those above mentioned - if your Pio has a global crossover you will have to find the happy medium. Given all of your gear, I too would agree a SMALL setting for all would probably be best, yet IMHO a 60 or 80Hz setting is going to be good globally. The fun part will be experimenting with it all in your room. When the dust settles we all could be wrong... biggrin.gif

Cheers
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post #28647 of 29314
3/2/13 at 9:51am
KJ as someone with Mythos Gems as my rear channels there is no way I would recommend 60hz in no way shape or form. Too much distortion.
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post #28648 of 29314
3/2/13 at 10:03am
There's no question that the Mythos Gem surrounds and SM65 mains should be set to "small" with maybe an 80Hz crossover. The installer who recommended "large" is an idiot, not to be trusted in the future, because he clearly does not understand how bass management in a multichannel HT system works.

I also question the choice of an AVR (any Pioneer) that uses a universal crossover frequency, when combined with such a variety of different speakers. An unusually wide variety, in fact. Pioneer's MCACC system is intended for use with speakers that are all similar (Pioneer even says so in their technical literature).

The only real question here is whether to set the center to small or large. And there's really no question, because while the 8060 is capable of excellent bass for something its size, it's still not a full-range speaker that requires no bass management. Would you teally want to *not* have the center channel bass frequencies the 8060 can't handle sent to the Supercube?

So while it seems like a waste of the 8060's bass capabilities, setting it to small is the way to go, IMO. You'd get more out of it with a receiver that could set the CC crossover to a lower frequency, but with the Pioneer you can't do that.
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post #28649 of 29314
3/2/13 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

KJ as someone with Mythos Gems as my rear channels there is no way I would recommend 60hz in no way shape or form. Too much distortion.

I think he's going to have to experiment, although I agree 60 is probably too low. I'd start at 80 and go up from there if necessary. Much depends on what he listens to and how loud; movies are routinely mixed with little bass in the surrounds, but multichannel music can push a surround speaker.

Different surround speakers or an AVR with Audyssey instead of MCACC are the fix for this situation, which sounds to me like the product of some bad advice.
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post #28650 of 29314
3/2/13 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

KJ as someone with Mythos Gems as my rear channels there is no way I would recommend 60hz in no way shape or form. Too much distortion.

The global crossover is definitely a downer when you have a mix of speaker capabilities. Sometimes when limited its best to achieve the "best sound" at a good volume level vs limiting all speakers with a high cross just so you can play louder.

The SM65s are known to handle some good freqs at decent volume levels. With the global cross, again,,, IMHO, I wouldn't want to cut the 65s off with a CO that was applied to facilitate the "rear" channels. If me, I would find the happy medium which very well could be any of the suggestions. The 8060 center should be fine with any of the above recommendations albeit "small".

Correct, 'I've never played with the XLs. I do consider them pretty close to the BP2Xs however, which I still utilize 3 pairs of - one pair as rears in a 5.2 system. We all tend to pull from our experiences. The above was my thought process and as mentioned - we all definitely have our opinions on this subject. biggrin.gif

I'm sure fcroadking will let us know how it all works out.
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