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Definitive Owners Thread - Page 956

post #28651 of 30962
If you set the receiver crossover at 50hz, does the subwoofer still play all the LFE signals sent to it at all frequencies? Because LFE is specifically engineered for subwoofers correct? Or no?
post #28652 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

If you set the receiver crossover at 50hz, does the subwoofer still play all the LFE signals sent to it at all frequencies? Because LFE is specifically engineered for subwoofers correct? Or no?

Yes, the LFE channel is independent. Your crossover settings do not effect the LFE freqs/channel.

And yes, subwoofers live for the LFE channel. biggrin.gif
post #28653 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

If you set the receiver crossover at 50hz, does the subwoofer still play all the LFE signals sent to it at all frequencies? Because LFE is specifically engineered for subwoofers correct? Or no?

Yes, the crossover applies only to channels set to "small," and redirects sound below that frequency from those channels to the subwoofer. Meanwhile, all information in the LFE channel also goes to the sub. This can, and often does, include frequencies higher than those selected by the crossover setting. This is why you set the crossover control on the sub to its highest setting.
post #28654 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJSmitty View Post

Some prefer the single driver to the front. Not to mention its easier to get at the amp controls.
Looks great too smile.gif
post #28655 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Yeah I just dont think it's gonna work. Even at 6 inches they will still be blocking my tv for the people sitting on my side couch. So I'm thinking its either the Monitor 65s or the STS towers which I can place basically as close to the wall as they will go. STS is a quite a bump in price though, frown.gif
Hello Ten, I'd agree that if you cannot get at least half a foot away from the back wall, you would be negating a fair amount of the benefit of bipolars. I agree totally with KJSmitty that each room is a little different, so it's hard to give an undisputed rule. It's also worth noting: a) most speakers, bipolar or not, sound their best when pulled out into the room a pretty fair distance; b) the side wall distance seems to be even more important for bipolar speakers than the rear-wall distance. If you go with SM 65 or STS I think you'll love either one. Best, Joe
post #28656 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

There's no question that the Mythos Gem surrounds and SM65 mains should be set to "small" with maybe an 80Hz crossover. The installer who recommended "large" is an idiot, not to be trusted in the future, because he clearly does not understand how bass management in a multichannel HT system works.

I also question the choice of an AVR (any Pioneer) that uses a universal crossover frequency, when combined with such a variety of different speakers. An unusually wide variety, in fact. Pioneer's MCACC system is intended for use with speakers that are all similar (Pioneer even says so in their technical literature).

The only real question here is whether to set the center to small or large. And there's really no question, because while the 8060 is capable of excellent bass for something its size, it's still not a full-range speaker that requires no bass management. Would you teally want to *not* have the center channel bass frequencies the 8060 can't handle sent to the Supercube?

So while it seems like a waste of the 8060's bass capabilities, setting it to small is the way to go, IMO. You'd get more out of it with a receiver that could set the CC crossover to a lower frequency, but with the Pioneer you can't do that.
Thanks for your detailed comments RD. It's unfortunate that with this receiver, and with such a wide variation in deep-bass capability among these speakers, you have to choose a crossover frequency that either won't maximize the ability of the better ones, or overly stresses the lesser ones. I agree - set it so you don't stress out the least bass capable speaker. Best, Joe
post #28657 of 30962
Can someone help/suggest how to put my BP1.2X? It will be the SB from a 7.1 system.
I live in a condo building and the height of the ceiling is 8' but with that drop for the furnace is 7'. Livingroom/Kitchen is open concept.
Do I need to angle it slightly downwards?
What bracket should I use?









Edited by BRAISKI - 3/3/13 at 8:07am
post #28658 of 30962
Yesterday I hooked up my bp-8060st towers to my Emotiva XPA-5 200w x 5 amp, marantz sr7007 and oppo bd103 and watched "Red". Holy Moses I was impressed. This was only a trial to test the amp and towers as the towers are for my next house and not this one, but wow...just running stereo speakers with no sub blew away my Polk audio satellite 5.1 system with klipsch rw12d sub. The fight scenes were rattling my drawers and cupboards. The mid range was more full and alive than before. Blah, blah, sibilance, depth, yadda yadda.
Bottom line, I was worried that spending all that dough on speakers wouldn't pay off, but not anymore. Very impressed. And I still plan on getting cs8080hd and sr8080's.
post #28659 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeatdefinitive View Post

Hi Bad Leroy, you are correct that the L/R are no longer labeled that way. These can be used as L/C/R with no issue. Best regards, Joe

Thanks! i actually called you guys on Friday because one of the towers had a metal plate where the sub was supposed to be. Found out that some of them had a covering over the sub.
post #28660 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by badbadleroybrown View Post

Thanks! i actually called you guys on Friday because one of the towers had a metal plate where the sub was supposed to be. Found out that some of them had a covering over the sub.
?...this sounds weird...have any pics...strange that it would make it all the way to you like that.
post #28661 of 30962
I was planning to install my in-ceiling surround speakers (for 5.1) today in my finished living room but have run into an issue regarding orientation that I could use your input on. I will also be emailing deftech and will post their response but thought I'd get your input today (and with luck maybe Joe@DefTech will respond today):

I picked up a pair of RSS II in-ceiling bipolar speakers and regarding orienting the speaker the manual states:

"If ceiling-mounting these speakers directly on either side of the main listening position, the speakers should be oriented so that one set of drivers shoots at the listening position and the other set shoots away from the listening position."

Unfortunately due to my 12" on-center ceiling joists and their orientation, I can not orient the RSS II's as recommended in the manual -- only 90 degrees to the listener instead. Because of this, I started looking at their other in-ceiling speakers and am considering either the DI 6.5R or the DI 5.5 BPS. Upon looking at the manual for the 5.5 BPS, I see what appears to be the opposite recommendation for the orientation; below is a shot from the manual, where the drivers are oriented 90 degrees to the listening position.



I presume this orientation is recommended as the tweeter in the 5.5 BPS is aimable (both rotation and axis change) -- is this the reason for the opposite recommendation (which again is what is compatible with my finished ceiling).

Here is the floorplan of my living room; I'm not even sure if the bipolar will work as well as they should since one speaker will be effectively in the middle of the room with not much of a reflection surface while the other is near a corner where either orientation would have a reflecting surface. I've inserted the 5.5 BPS as red boxes in the floorplan.



FYI, for my fronts, I am running L/R as Mythos 8 and currently have a ProCenter 1000 that I'll be upgrading to a Mythos 8 or 9.

What is your input on orienting the RSS II's as surrounds at 90 degrees to the MLP as is recommended for the DI 5.5 BPS?

Lastly, here is a panoramic of the room:


Edited by jjcook - 3/3/13 at 10:20am
post #28662 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by CleatusCat View Post

I'll have a bite of this. smile.gif According to the experts, if you don't block the first reflection points than the treatments are pointless. rolleyes.gif
What I've found with these speakers is that they are able to play low volumes nicely with music you can feel, but lack warmth and can be quite edgy.
They will rock a large house at higher volumes but you wouldn't want to be in the same room as them. The highs will clash like cymbals and be quite fatiguing.
Louder? The large drivers will show no signs of letting up. The highs will wildly distort, the lengthly hisses and metallic sounds will cause blood to quickly poor from your ears, eyes and nose.

Nice for home theater and gaming.

Disclaimer: maybe its my receiver/ room or both.[/quote











I have to retract as I have finally had some free time to spend tweaking settings on the receiver to make these the sound more welcoming at loud levels. What I found is that MCACC was setting up the speakers at very clashy, harsh, bright levels due to its effort to control the bass reverb. I reset the receiver and put in some earplugs, played nothing but thrash music ( I don't listen to) and tuned the rough edges off. I still have a long way to go but these speakers have now become quite comfortable playing music at loud levels now smile.gif
post #28663 of 30962
What speakers do you have cleatuscat?...I have a pioneer elite vsx-60 and my 8060 towers would exhibit this trait when I ran MCACC.That is why I run my towersflat with no EQ except for setting the distance and they play loud and clear now....no harshness up top...like you I still mess around with the settings but for now I'm very pleased.

I see 3000tl's....didn't look at your Sig...smile.gif
post #28664 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by CleatusCat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CleatusCat View Post

I'll have a bite of this. smile.gif According to the experts, if you don't block the first reflection points than the treatments are pointless. rolleyes.gif
What I've found with these speakers is that they are able to play low volumes nicely with music you can feel, but lack warmth and can be quite edgy.
They will rock a large house at higher volumes but you wouldn't want to be in the same room as them. The highs will clash like cymbals and be quite fatiguing.
Louder? The large drivers will show no signs of letting up. The highs will wildly distort, the lengthly hisses and metallic sounds will cause blood to quickly poor from your ears, eyes and nose.

Nice for home theater and gaming.

Disclaimer: maybe its my receiver/ room or both.[/quote











I have to retract as I have finally had some free time to spend tweaking settings on the receiver to make these the sound more welcoming at loud levels. What I found is that MCACC was setting up the speakers at very clashy, harsh, bright levels due to its effort to control the bass reverb. I reset the receiver and put in some earplugs, played nothing but thrash music ( I don't listen to) and tuned the rough edges off. I still have a long way to go but these speakers have now become quite comfortable playing music at loud levels now smile.gif

I have Pioneer Elite SC-25 and I can atest that they are very bright on the highs requiring some tweaking. The best thing to do is lower the X-Curve in the receiver setting to at least -2db or more. This takes some of the harshness of the really high frequencies.
post #28665 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

What speakers do you have cleatuscat?...I have a pioneer elite vsx-60 and my 8060 towers would exhibit this trait when I ran MCACC.That is why I run my towersflat with no EQ except for setting the distance and they play loud and clear now....no harshness up top...like you I still mess around with the settings but for now I'm very pleased.

I see 3000tl's....didn't look at your Sig...smile.gif

Yep, the MCACC will brighten up all the Def Tech stuff in my sig bigtime in an effort to control the reverb from the subs. I've read that you can change the millisecound response time to 30-50ms (pioneer recommends this as well) with MUCH different results according to the guys in the MCACC thread. I'm running mine pretty much the same as you with the exception of a few settings for now. I'll try the different ms time on MEMORY 2 and with subs close to being off in MEMORY3 next weekend cool.gif
post #28666 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

I have Pioneer Elite SC-25 and I can atest that they are very bright on the highs requiring some tweaking. The best thing to do is lower the X-Curve in the receiver setting to at least -2db or more. This takes some of the harshness of the really high frequencies.

The Xcurve does help but wasn't nearly enough in my case. The EQ graphs for each speaker looked like frowns with the low freqs being low and the softest part of the highs also being low.
post #28667 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

If you set the receiver crossover at 50hz, does the subwoofer still play all the LFE signals sent to it at all frequencies? Because LFE is specifically engineered for subwoofers correct? Or no?

Another thing to remember is that with Pioneer AVR's, when all speakers are set to Small and a crossover is applied, it takes the bass from all the speakers plus the LFE channel and THEN applies the crossover. So, if you set the crossover to 50hz, you'll be cutting off the upper end of the LFE channel. 80hz or 100hz would almost always be the better choice.
post #28668 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Another thing to remember is that with Pioneer AVR's, when all speakers are set to Small and a crossover is applied, it takes the bass from all the speakers plus the LFE channel and THEN applies the crossover. So, if you set the crossover to 50hz, you'll be cutting off the upper end of the LFE channel. 80hz or 100hz would almost always be the better choice.

I'd be interested in seeing a source for this. Since LFE is not redirected to any other speakers when they are set to "small," and since LFE can contain sound well above 50 (or 80 or 100) Hz, such a design would result in information present in the program not being reproduced at all. That would be, IMO, a fatal design flaw in a surround processor, and one I would have expected to have heard about before now.
post #28669 of 30962
Quote:
Ten ton bass, Hi all, just wondering what is the closest that the BP tower speakers can be placed from a wall and still get the sound dispersion. I'm looking at the BP-10s, dont need built in subs, already have a 15" sub. Thanks guys!
when i was selling definitive a rep told me rule of thumb for BP's if possible is use the top cover length (depth of speaker) for your distance from wall to speaker. Unfortunately this does not always work in most applications.
post #28670 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

I'd be interested in seeing a source for this. Since LFE is not redirected to any other speakers when they are set to "small," and since LFE can contain sound well above 50 (or 80 or 100) Hz, such a design would result in information present in the program not being reproduced at all. That would be, IMO, a fatal design flaw in a surround processor, and one I would have expected to have heard about before now.

Understandable and I felt the same way until I asked this question and received this response from Macfan424 post #14003.

"With Pioneer (and many other brands), the crossover setting does affect LFE. The bass directed from the "Small" speakers is mixed with the LFE in the subwoofer channel, then the crossover is applied to the sub channel. The LFE above the crossover is not redirected to the mains, either. It is gone. So Kurolicious' ears are not deceiving him. With a 50Hz crossover on his Pioneer VSX-92TXH, he is losing LFE above 50Hz. (Again, this design decision is not unique to Pioneer, and it is supported by some valid theoretic arguments better suited to a different thread.)".
post #28671 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Understandable and I felt the same way until I asked this question and received this response from Macfan424 post #14003.

"With Pioneer (and many other brands), the crossover setting does affect LFE. The bass directed from the "Small" speakers is mixed with the LFE in the subwoofer channel, then the crossover is applied to the sub channel. The LFE above the crossover is not redirected to the mains, either. It is gone. So Kurolicious' ears are not deceiving him. With a 50Hz crossover on his Pioneer VSX-92TXH, he is losing LFE above 50Hz. (Again, this design decision is not unique to Pioneer, and it is supported by some valid theoretic arguments better suited to a different thread.)".

First and foremost,, I'm not doubting "you" or anything personal like that. biggrin.gif But that definitely comes off as very strange. Obviously the "freqs at/below the crossover setting are directed to the sub/LFE output, but I have never read (or would have even "thought" - nor do I now,,) that the crossover effected the discrete "LFE" channel. That makes little since to me - even if it does only involve small portions of the intended sound track within the LFE.

Now, I do know that my AVR allows me to direct both "Bass freqs" and "LFE" (yet are they clipped by the CO..?). Either way, I feel like the monkey with my eyes and ears covered saying "I don't hear you..." biggrin.gif

"Supported by some valid theoretic arguments better suited to a different thread"

I say let it be heard here! biggrin.gif

Thanks/Cheers
post #28672 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcook View Post

I was planning to install my in-ceiling surround speakers (for 5.1) today in my finished living room but have run into an issue regarding orientation that I could use your input on. I will also be emailing deftech and will post their response but thought I'd get your input today (and with luck maybe Joe@DefTech will respond today):

I picked up a pair of RSS II in-ceiling bipolar speakers and regarding orienting the speaker the manual states:

"If ceiling-mounting these speakers directly on either side of the main listening position, the speakers should be oriented so that one set of drivers shoots at the listening position and the other set shoots away from the listening position."

Unfortunately due to my 12" on-center ceiling joists and their orientation, I can not orient the RSS II's as recommended in the manual -- only 90 degrees to the listener instead. Because of this, I started looking at their other in-ceiling speakers and am considering either the DI 6.5R or the DI 5.5 BPS. Upon looking at the manual for the 5.5 BPS, I see what appears to be the opposite recommendation for the orientation; below is a shot from the manual, where the drivers are oriented 90 degrees to the listening position.



I presume this orientation is recommended as the tweeter in the 5.5 BPS is aimable (both rotation and axis change) -- is this the reason for the opposite recommendation (which again is what is compatible with my finished ceiling).

Here is the floorplan of my living room; I'm not even sure if the bipolar will work as well as they should since one speaker will be effectively in the middle of the room with not much of a reflection surface while the other is near a corner where either orientation would have a reflecting surface. I've inserted the 5.5 BPS as red boxes in the floorplan.



FYI, for my fronts, I am running L/R as Mythos 8 and currently have a ProCenter 1000 that I'll be upgrading to a Mythos 8 or 9.

What is your input on orienting the RSS II's as surrounds at 90 degrees to the MLP as is recommended for the DI 5.5 BPS?

Lastly, here is a panoramic of the room:

JJ, in my opinion, I would stick with the RSS II. They sound awesome, and you don't want to move to a lesser speaker just because you aren't able to orient them in the most optimal way. The advice on orientation of these speakers is simply to get them sounding their best. They will still work when 90 degrees to your couch and they'll sound great. I hope this helps and thanks for buying DT! Best, Joe
post #28673 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJSmitty View Post

First and foremost,, I'm not doubting "you" or anything personal like that. biggrin.gif But that definitely comes off as very strange. Obviously the "freqs at/below the crossover setting are directed to the sub/LFE output, but I have never read (or would have even "thought" - nor do I now,,) that the crossover effected the discrete "LFE" channel. That makes little since to me - even if it does only involve small portions of the intended sound track within the LFE.

Now, I do know that my AVR allows me to direct both "Bass freqs" and "LFE" (yet are they clipped by the CO..?). Either way, I feel like the monkey with my eyes and ears covered saying "I don't hear you..." biggrin.gif

"Supported by some valid theoretic arguments better suited to a different thread"

I say let it be heard here! biggrin.gif

Thanks/Cheers

When I first got my DefTech's I was excited at the idea that I would be able to set my crossover much lower than 80hz. However, when I set the crossover at 50hz and played some bass heavy movies, I quickly noticed something sounded "off". I could tell there was some bass missing vs. the 80hz crossover so, there must be some truth to this. I imagine there is some reasoning by the engineers at Pioneer for doing this but we may never know what that reasoning is.
post #28674 of 30962
Hey guys I've gotten a great offer to buy some speakers and wanted to get some opinions on the +/- of the logistics. To start off, I'm currently running the 8040 fronts, 8080 center, and 8080 rears on a Denon AVR1613 and loving them, with a few reservations. I've gotten an offer to buy some BP7001s for $1500 and they are in great condition (all original parts, no issues, etc). I guess I really just want to know what kind of upgrade this would be to my system. My room is 14x18x8 with an opening to the kitchen along one of the 18' walls, so it's by no means perfect, but the 8040's are doing OK in the space. I have noticed that the midrange gets a little lost during explosive/action movies and was wondering if the 6.5" drivers in the 7001s would noticeably fill in the gaps a bit better? Also, I have my fronts toed in to the main listening position and have noticed absolute bass dead spots when sitting when off axis left or right of the main listening position which just happens to be where one of my couches is placed.... not as much of an issue for me since i'm usually in that main spot, but it's a completely different experience for people sitting on the other couch. Will the larger woofer/amp/output of the 7001s fill more of the space or just direct more sound towards the main listening position without producing a larger sound field? And i guess the last question would be - is $1500 a good deal on some 7001s?

Anyone interested in some BP8040s? biggrin.gif

As always, thanks for any and all opinions and information.

Cheers
post #28675 of 30962
Hello Braiski,
"Can someone help/suggest how to put my BP1.2X? It will be the SB from a 7.1 system. I live in a condo building and the height of the ceiling is 8' but with that drop for the furnace is 7'. Livingroom/Kitchen is open concept. Do I need to angle it slightly downwards?"
I am not sure that you need to angle the speakers down-ward. Remember that surround speakers sound best when they are not directly radiating toward the listener anyway. The surround channels need to create some ambient sound to simulate the rows of side speakers you would see at your local cinema. I hope this helps - best, Joe
post #28676 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

?...this sounds weird...have any pics...strange that it would make it all the way to you like that.
Hello Josh and BadLeroy, this is intentional. Our latest production runs of BP 8080 ST, BP 8020 ST, and CS 8060 HD have metal mesh grilles covering the woofers and bass radiators. Acoustically they are unchanged - best, Joe
Edited by joeatdefinitive - 3/5/13 at 12:55pm
post #28677 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

When I first got my DefTech's I was excited at the idea that I would be able to set my crossover much lower than 80hz. However, when I set the crossover at 50hz and played some bass heavy movies, I quickly noticed something sounded "off". I could tell there was some bass missing vs. the 80hz crossover so, there must be some truth to this. I imagine there is some reasoning by the engineers at Pioneer for doing this but we may never know what that reasoning is.

Kurolicious, looking into this more deeply, I'm finding that apparently Pioneer has combined (a) the bass-management crossover function and (b) the low-pass filter on the LFE channel -- separate settings on many processors -- into one global setting. Thus, clearly, you use lower frequency settings at the risk of losing LFE info above that frequency (although I can't find a spec for the slope of that filter).

So yes, it's just as you say. I find this somewhat disturbing, although with the typical 80Hz crossover it's unlikely to matter much. But it's yet another reason for buyers to understand clearly that not every array of speakers will necessarily prove optimal for use with Pioneer receivers.

I have a Pioneer myself, and I'm very happy with it. None of these limitations come into play in my system, where the same crossover (80Hz) is optimal for all speakers in my room (four SM1000, two SM35, one PC2000). But with more of a mix-and-match system I think I'd be more comfortable with the setup flexibility -- and separate LFE low-pass filter -- offered by the upscale versions of Audyssey.

Thanks for calling attention to this oddity.
post #28678 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeatdefinitive View Post

Hello Josh and BadLeroy, this is intentional Our latest production runs of BP 8080 ST, BP 8020 ST, and CS 8060 HD have metal mesh grilles covering the woofers and bass radiators. Acoustically they are unchanged - best, Joe
Hmm...why was it decided to add them?...what purpose do they serve?...I'll be interested to hear...smile.gif
post #28679 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Hmm...why was it decided to add them?...what purpose do they serve?...I'll be interested to hear...smile.gif
More protection for a speaker, the better; well atleast till it effects the sound. Had some older JBL towers with titanium dome tweeters that kept getting in the way of my daughter's, niece's, and nephew's little fingers. Replaced several of those things before actually made some mesh grilles to cover them.cool.gif
post #28680 of 30962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratified View Post

More protection for a speaker, the better; well atleast till it effects the sound. Had some older JBL towers with titanium dome tweeters that kept getting in the way of my daughter's, niece's, and nephew's little fingers. Replaced several of those things before actually made some mesh grilles to cover them.cool.gif
That would make sense if it was on all of the new speaker line but as Joe said it was only added to a few products...meaning at least to me they serve a purpose...otherwise if just for protection they would be on all the new line...smile.gif
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