or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Definitive Owners Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Definitive Owners Thread - Page 959

post #28741 of 30932
Also forgot to ask. What is the center preout for?
post #28742 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Yes, but... glass? I guess it depends on the thickness. Here's a guy who shattered sheets of window glass using subwoofers at a frequency of around 34Hz, very much present in many LFE tracks. I'm sure these shelves are thicker plate glass, but still...

He should not be sending LFE to the center channel. Flexing window glass via sub with enough excursion or frequency to shatter must have been impressive and/or some weak glass. My only concern with his tempered glass shelves would be rattles or resonance noise - but that could be remedied as well.
biggrin.gif
post #28743 of 30932
OK, don't take the tone of this post wrong yet there is misinformation above regarding the proper way of connecting a powered DT center speaker.

First and foremost!! The RCA input on your 8060 center is not an "LFE Input". Do not split your LFE output from your AVR and connect to your center. The powered driver in all of the DT powered centers is not to be used as another subwoofer!!

Also, you very much can wire the 8060 center (and all other DT powered centers) to your AVRs center channel "Pre-out" to the "low level" RCA input on the 8060. This is actually the only recommended option other than speaker wire only - straight from DT. Bottom line, you are supposed to run a full range "low level" signal to the low level input if you so choose to configure it that way.

Cheers
post #28744 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epelba01 View Post

Also forgot to ask. What is the center preout for?

You probably have "Pre-outs" on your AVR for all 5.2 or 7.2 channels. (I did not look up your Pio..). Your AVR is basically a Pre-amp and individual amplifiers all in one. The Pre-outs are used to bypass the internal amps and power another etc. All of your other pre-amp settings from volume, Audyssey and crossovers apply to the Pre-outs. Think of the amp within your DT towers or center as just that, another amp. The Pre-amp outs on your AVR are the low level signals to feed that amp (if you choose to configure that way).


I've been experimenting and using powered DT towers since early to mid 1990s when the BP2000s first came out. I have wired/configured them for music only, music and HT and just HT. One must understand your AVR settings and listening desires to best assist in offering you "opinions" on your current config.

- Are you using the system for both HT and stereo and/or more one or the other?

- Will your Pioneer allow different crossover settings for each channel?

Cheers
post #28745 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJSmitty View Post

He should not be sending LFE to the center channel. Flexing window glass via sub with enough excursion or frequency to shatter must have been impressive and/or some weak glass. My only concern with his tempered glass shelves would be rattles or resonance noise - but that could be remedied as well.
biggrin.gif

Agreed that running a powered CC with LFE isn't appropriate; regardless of whether the speaker is "Small" or "large", the speaker wire can handle the connection. As DT points out, the LFE connection only has value if you want to separately handle the "sub" volume in the AVR vs. on-board. And there's only a limited number of AVRs that can handle two independent sub outputs anyway (e.g. the Denon 4311/4520), so even if you have standalone subs, it's pointless to pretend that the center is really a "sub".

I'd also argue that to get optimal lower and mid-bass from the powered center channel, you shouldn't it on middle or bottom shelves altogether, given that these speakers fire the bass/woofer section upward. He'd be better off having the center speaker either on the top shelf, with probably at least 6" of headroom above it, or better yet with open space above it.

You can also look into a picking up a dedicated center channel stand. Sanus sells 12" and 18" version IIRC. There's also a titlable Lovan USA stand as well.
post #28746 of 30932
^^^
The only problem is what any of us feel is "optimum" doesn't often fit his or other real world "needs" or limitations. Hence the reason DT gives you parameters like one inch of space on top to accommodate the driver in a cabinet etc. He has 4 inches which in real world tests would probably prove little to no effect on the lower frequency sounds.
- DT knows darn well that many folks will place their centers below a TV. The only way to do this is to either mount the TV to a wall and have the center on a stand or on top of a entertainment center. Or,, most often go within a shelf/space within the stand/cabinet that holds a TV. Sure, it may not be 100% the best instal yet it will work as advertised.
biggrin.gif
post #28747 of 30932
Apologies for the misinformation about using the center pre out. I've deleted the offending posts.
post #28748 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJSmitty View Post

^^^
The only problem is what any of us feel is "optimum" doesn't often fit his or other real world "needs" or limitations. Hence the reason DT gives you parameters like one inch of space on top to accommodate the driver in a cabinet etc. He has 4 inches which in real world tests would probably prove little to no effect on the lower frequency sounds.
- DT knows darn well that many folks will place their centers below a TV. The only way to do this is to either mount the TV to a wall and have the center on a stand or on top of a entertainment center. Or,, most often go within a shelf/space within the stand/cabinet that holds a TV. Sure, it may not be 100% the best instal yet it will work as advertised.
biggrin.gif

That's what I do: I got better (flatter) Audyssey Pro FR response from my powered center, and the center/sub crossover splice, by having the center on an open shelf or the stand. I tested this with the OmniMic kit I was using at the time for accessing my calibrations. All I know is that when I first put the speaker on an middle entertainment center shelf, the center channel bass was more muffled and "chestier". Simply removing it from the shelf and putting it on a study dining room chair outside the cabinet resulted in clearer dialogue and more "chest slam", which led me to look at other solutions. However, I don't think it was 4" of space above the center when it was on a middle shelf, more like 2-3".

Currently I use a TV mount/stand, with my CS-8080HD on the top shelf (a good 8" below my mounted Panny VT50), but the space above the speaker is open. And it took me a fair amount of research to find the right TV mount/stand for our needs, which replaced an older Sanus center channel stand, and required us to have the TV and stand to partially block the electronic doors on our entertainment cabinet for best placement.

Admittedly, that's not for everyone (which is why I said "optimum"). But I'm not the typical consumer in all likelihood smile.gif. And we all live in the real world, and deal with WAF. Otherwise our living room would have more room treatments than furniture!
post #28749 of 30932
Kjsmitty
Thank you so much for the above. I just unplugged the lfe from per out and only have speaker wire and it made a world of difference.
As far as to whether I am able to set different crossover frequencies I am not entirely sure, will look it up. If I can how would you set them? I spoke to def tech and they set to set it as low as possible.
As far as my preferences. I mostly will use this setup for home theater, with occasional music coming via sonos connect into my cd input on the amp.

Will I notice a difference with audioquest sub wire or is rocketfish sufficient?

I am waiting on my surround 8040s to arrive. What are the best settings for those (ie crossover frequency, db, etc)

Thanks again.
post #28750 of 30932
Would anyone purchase a brand new pair of 8060s from Craigslist for $1400? Or don't take the chance cause lack of warranty.
post #28751 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epelba01 View Post

Kjsmitty
Thank you so much for the above. I just unplugged the lfe from per out and only have speaker wire and it made a world of difference.
As far as to whether I am able to set different crossover frequencies I am not entirely sure, will look it up. If I can how would you set them? I spoke to def tech and they set to set it as low as possible.
As far as my preferences. I mostly will use this setup for home theater, with occasional music coming via sonos connect into my cd input on the amp.

Will I notice a difference with audioquest sub wire or is rocketfish sufficient?

I am waiting on my surround 8040s to arrive. What are the best settings for those (ie crossover frequency, db, etc)

Thanks again.

use monoprice.com for your wire
post #28752 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

use monoprice.com for your wire

Agree! Even Rocketfish is way overpriced.
post #28753 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by R0ckets11 View Post

Would anyone purchase a brand new pair of 8060s from Craigslist for $1400? Or don't take the chance cause lack of warranty.
Sounds like a good deal...if they are new they should be good....the new line came out in 2010 but I wouldn't for see a problem...are they new or gently used?...either way a good deal.
post #28754 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by R0ckets11 View Post

Would anyone purchase a brand new pair of 8060s from Craigslist for $1400? Or don't take the chance cause lack of warranty.

I don't want to speak for DT yet what has made many of us true fans is not just the quality of sound to price point of the Definitive speakers but their superb customer support. I have yet to know, hear or read about a DT speaker owner that was turned down for warranty support due to NOT being the original owner - me included. I would just ensure/ascertain (to the best you can from a stranger on CL) the origin (place of purchase) of the speakers and that they are all original etc. if they are in working order and meet your cosmetic desires I would not walk away from a good pair for a good price etc..

The other good is you can purchase genuine DT speaker replacement parts from an authorized eBay dealer.

Cheers
post #28755 of 30932
Sealed and brand new....damn. Don't know what to do...
post #28756 of 30932
Guys, need some advice. Im looking at the mythos st but have been seriously thinking about the 8080st. In my current residence i can't have the speakers out from the wall due to room layout. Would the 8080 be a bad choice in this situation? I know the speakers need room to breathe but i cant accommodate that. Also the idea of running the 8080 center is appealing. Help please.
post #28757 of 30932
Hi all, I have a pair of Mythos STS, pair of BP8040ST, and a Mythos Eight for sale. All new, never opened. PM me if interested. Thanks!
post #28758 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epelba01 View Post

Kjsmitty
Thank you so much for the above. I just unplugged the lfe from per out and only have speaker wire and it made a world of difference.
As far as to whether I am able to set different crossover frequencies I am not entirely sure, will look it up. If I can how would you set them? I spoke to def tech and they set to set it as low as possible.
As far as my preferences. I mostly will use this setup for home theater, with occasional music coming via sonos connect into my cd input on the amp.

Will I notice a difference with audioquest sub wire or is rocketfish sufficient?

I am waiting on my surround 8040s to arrive. What are the best settings for those (ie crossover frequency, db, etc)

Thanks again.

You bet,
The great thing about Definitive speakers is their flexibility and choice of configuration. Each of us have experience in certain DT speakers and/or different AVRs and specifics on connection or use. Problem is each room, its limitations or WAF factors and system use can be different. Best thing to do is know your AVRs functions and settings well then let the experimentation begin. biggrin.gif
RDClark gave you some great info on different configurations and why. Below will probably be some repetition of his ideas/suggestions as well.


First thing I would try is speaker wire only to the front three: left, right and center. Definitive recommends large/full range for your 8040 towers and the 8060 center. So set your AVR for "Large" for all three and then tell your AVR "no sub". Use the gain knobs on all three speakers to adjust output to your desires or to limit output due to overall AVR volume level etc. Once your 8040 surrounds arrive, set them as "Small" within your AVR with a crossover of 100Hz (100hz is also DTs recommendation for the 8040BPs). This config will sound great for HT as well as music.

Pioneer AVRs are known to have some limitations and in my words strange configuration options when it comes to bass management and crossover settings (there is some logic to it I'm sure). Im a Yamaha guy and even though I like some aspects of Audyssey over Yamaha's YPAO I chose my AVR for its configuration prowess and 11.2 channel power and sound-field options. Bottom line, the AVR can limit some configurations. Below may not work with your 61 and leave your system sounding best with option one.

Given your setup the other config I would try is setting the center to "Small" with a 40 or 60Hz crossover. This would help better distribute the dynamic nature of the center to your mains yet maintain deep dialogue - and keep from sending the LFE to the center given a "Small" setting etc. The problem may be that your Pio will only allow one crossover setting globally across all channels. You then run into the issue that you set it to say 100Hz for your 8040BPs (surrounds) yet it also applies it to your center which in my mind is way to high. You then could try 40-60Hz for the center yet that could leave "too much" going to your surrounds set to "Small" causing distortion etc. That's where it's nice to have individual settings per channel. If you go this route it may just take some experimentation with your listening habits to perfect overall sound across all speakers.

My system is in a dedicated HT space and rarely gets used for music. For this I have my four towers wired with both speaker wire and LFE/RCA to the inputs and I like the sound. Again, depending on AVR, running your mains via LFE outs via RCA may negatively effect bass performance during stereo / music listening. Just experiment - but you may find speaker wire and minimal AVR configuration (just surrounds set to small) is the best overall.

Have fun experimenting and congrats on your new setup!

biggrin.gif
post #28759 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by R0ckets11 View Post

Sealed and brand new....damn. Don't know what to do...

If you are in the market for the 8060s, they are in your local area and the seller is legitimate, I would check them out. I've purchased numerous items from car parts, computers, tools to HT items off local CL sellers without issue - so it's probably easy for me to say go. I do tend to ask a lot of pointed questions at times depending on the item and price.

The seller may have purchased them and hit rough times and is trying to unload them quickly. Tis a nice price.
post #28760 of 30932
Certainly lots of experimenting to do. I am a little confused as to why one would set the sub setting to off? Does that mean that whatever the LFE wire is carrying is no longer there? Sorry for the novice questions. My amp has 3 settings fro the Sub (no, yes and plus), no sure what the plus setting is. I guess I am still confused about no for the sub setting, yet the towers have the subs built in. Also I jst went through all the settings and it seems that the crossover frequency applies to all speakers, there is no individual setting. I am learning a lot here. Thanks guys.
post #28761 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Yes, but... glass? I guess it depends on the thickness. Here's a guy who shattered sheets of window glass using subwoofers at a frequency of around 34Hz, very much present in many LFE tracks. I'm sure these shelves are thicker plate glass, but still...

Right...it's a miniature subwoofer...
post #28762 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epelba01 View Post

Certainly lots of experimenting to do. I am a little confused as to why one would set the sub setting to off? Does that mean that whatever the LFE wire is carrying is no longer there? Sorry for the novice questions. My amp has 3 settings fro the Sub (no, yes and plus), no sure what the plus setting is. I guess I am still confused about no for the sub setting, yet the towers have the subs built in. Also I jst went through all the settings and it seems that the crossover frequency applies to all speakers, there is no individual setting. I am learning a lot here. Thanks guys.

Think of the towers this way if you just wire them with speaker wire-Very capable full range speakers.

And this way with speaker wire and lfe to the towers-just imagine if you had two subs sitting on the floor right next to your towers running lfe to them and towers would just be mids and tweeters.

If you we're to run lfe to your towers you would then set them to small. I'm not sure why some of the above advice said opposite. If you set them to large and ran lfe that's mis managed bass management and no wonder they sounded bad. The only way you would even get bass from the subs in that scenario is if you had double bass or lfe+mains or whatever pioneer calls it. I believe once you plug in lfe to the towers it nullifies the built in crossovers.

Your receiver doesn't know the towers have built in subs...
post #28763 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epelba01 View Post

Certainly lots of experimenting to do. I am a little confused as to why one would set the sub setting to off? Does that mean that whatever the LFE wire is carrying is no longer there? Sorry for the novice questions. My amp has 3 settings fro the Sub (no, yes and plus), no sure what the plus setting is. I guess I am still confused about no for the sub setting, yet the towers have the subs built in. Also I jst went through all the settings and it seems that the crossover frequency applies to all speakers, there is no individual setting. I am learning a lot here. Thanks guys.

With the sub set to "Off" ("No" in the case of your AVR) you are telling it you do not have a "stand alone - dedicated" sub. So yes, when set to "No", it no longer sends a signal to the LFE/Sub outs on your AVR. Rather, the LFE channel is redirected to any/all speakers set to "Large". That's why you only need the speaker wire connection to your 8040 towers.

"Plus", sometimes called "double bass", typically sends the LFE channel to both the LFE/Sub outputs on the AVR as well as any/all speakers set to "Large". So if you did have other stand alone subs you could send the LFE to the sub and your towers etc.

So, speaker wire is all you really need to all speakers.

- Set left and right main to "Large" and sub to "No."
- Prior to incorporating the 8040 surrounds experiment with your center set to "Large" and then "Small" with a 60Hz crossover (This keeps the LFE from going to the center). .
- After adding the 8040 surrounds, either set you center back to "Large" and the surrounds to "Small" and 100Hz. Or leave the center set to "Small"' and set the surrounds to "Small" as well, then experiment with either a 60, 80, or 100Hz setting on both..

Remember, the crossover setting typically only applies to speakers once set to "Small."

Fun, fun.
post #28764 of 30932
Being that Pioneers have a global crossover setting that even effects LFE I am told, setting it to 80hz is your best overall bet. I have the CS8080 center and if you turn the sub dial high (past 3'oclock) after setting the 80hz crossover you get beautiful sounding voices with perfect deep midbass, your sub should be able to handle the rest.

And I still defend my stance to others that even at an 80hz crossover point a three way speaker with a built in sub offers better FR than one without.
post #28765 of 30932
Old akai am 2800, 100 watts rms, with 2 large scott sp310 speaker cabinets, 1 mid blown, 1 sub severly duct taped. smile.gif , 2 audiosphere research, and 2 technics. works.
post #28766 of 30932
KJSmitty,

I experimented with turning sub to off and I am definitely sure that it immediately sounded louder, ? Better - don't know.
If I am setting it up this way and curtting out the lfe do I ultimately need a separate sub? Or the towers with the built in sub is all that's needed. I know it's a matter of preference but I'm just picking your brain.
Thanks
post #28767 of 30932
Epelba01 if you live in the phoenix metro area I will come over and help you out and explain a few things. some times it easier to actually see what is written than just read it. I myself have been in this hobby for several years and although i understand what all the above posters have been saying. I confused myself while reading some of the responses lol. No offense intended to any of the posters. all good info, made me even think for a minute on my setup lol. Gotta love this hobby smile.gif
post #28768 of 30932
I unfortunately do not live in the Phoenix area. I do agree though it is easier to see it. I am following the responses above and they have been awesome. What still confuses me is that my L/R and Center all have a built in subwoofer with lfe connection. I am not sure why one would say that you do not have a subwoofer in the AVR settings. I guess I am getting caught up in the details, but would appreciate and explanation of pro's and cons of yes subwoofer, no subwoofer vs plus subwoofer settings give the speakers that I have (8040 towers and 8060 center)

Thank you
post #28769 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epelba01 View Post

KJSmitty,

I experimented with turning sub to off and I am definitely sure that it immediately sounded louder, ? Better - don't know.
If I am setting it up this way and curtting out the lfe do I ultimately need a separate sub? Or the towers with the built in sub is all that's needed. I know it's a matter of preference but I'm just picking your brain.
Thanks

Well it sounds like ur sub is to much for ur amp therefore using alot of power and taking away from other speakers, Hense why its important to balance ur speaker types, and find the perfect match, What ohm is the sub?
And as for the seperate sub. Well that depends on ur cabinets, subs and preference.. smaller sub works good in a larger box, and large subs in an even larger box, my cabinets are about 1.5 ft wide, 1.5ft depth and about 2.5 ft tall, not exact cause i dont have a tape measure atm. But im using a 12 inch sub, mid and tweeter, and the cabinet has an air hole for bass too, and it sounds incredible, Just remember, subs need air to make sound. Big boxes are great, Im eventually gunna build a seperate sub box, prolly use a 12 inch sub, with 2x2x2 size box, .. Thats ne though, i aint no pro and theres tons of arguements about this.

It also makes a difference on what type of system u have, Example: If u have a generic home theater in a box. Or a sterio amp with rms watts, Home theaters in a box /cheap ones anyway, tend to be crap, watts split, and distorted, compared to a rms watt system..I had a sony 1000 watt home theater, and it seemed to lose quality when more speakers were hooked, But im not using it, im using a akai am 2800 sterio integrated amp, 2channel 100watt rms per channel, And I have 4 speakers hooked, and it makes no difference on the volume,
But do make sure u have balanced type speakers on the left channel as u do on the right, or it will affect your system.. And also may cause harm.
post #28770 of 30932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epelba01 View Post

I unfortunately do not live in the Phoenix area. I do agree though it is easier to see it. I am following the responses above and they have been awesome. What still confuses me is that my L/R and Center all have a built in subwoofer with lfe connection. I am not sure why one would say that you do not have a subwoofer in the AVR settings. I guess I am getting caught up in the details, but would appreciate and explanation of pro's and cons of yes subwoofer, no subwoofer vs plus subwoofer settings give the speakers that I have (8040 towers and 8060 center)

Thank you

I have 8060 towers, 8040center, 80404 surrounds, pro monitor 1000's for a 7.1 setup ran by a Denon 3313. I also have a monstrous HSU VTF-15H beast of a subwoofer. I spent many many hrs researching on how to optimize my setup. This forum, the Denon forum, the audyssey forum, etc...

Lfe is the .1 channel in a 5.1, 7.1, etc setups. It is designed for bass. Think of it as a bass channel. Now the powered speakers with built in subs have built in crossovers in them that take those lower frequencies when just connected via speaker wire and send them to the amp/sub in the powered speaker.

The only time you say yes for sub in the avr settings is if you have lfe connected which simply tells your avr to send the frequencies lower than you decided set crossover through the lfe rather than the speaker wire. This is for dedicated subwoofers. Just think of your speakers as capable. Like I said earlier you can try to set your towers with lfe but you would then want to set your towers to small and subwoofer yes and cross them at 80hz. Give it a try at least. This will tell your avr simply to send the lower frequencies through the lfe to the sub and higher to the mids and tweeters in the towers. I repeat if you connect lfe to your towers you don't want to set to large. Then you are telling your avr to send the low frequencies to your mids in your towers which they are not designed to replicate 40hz. Simple right?
You would set to large if you just connect via speaker wire and the built in crossover would then take care of the division of sending the highs and lows.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Definitive Owners Thread