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Definitive Owners Thread - Page 1003

post #30061 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by abinitio View Post

Just picked up a pair of 7004's. I auditioned them at the guys house, and they sounded great. Detailed, solid range, and clean at loud levels. He had a high end cd player and amp. I just got the 7004s home and they sound completely different. They are very laid back, and almost muffled. Detail is poor and the the dynamic sound I heard at his house is lacking.

I'm playing CD's through a PS3 connected to a lowly Denon AVR-391. Do you guys think those components could make that much of difference? I have the PS3 connected to the Denon with a random HDMI cord. I'm also using cheap speaker wire, although I can't imagine that would really matter. I've checked all of the Denon settings. Its just playing in simple stereo. I know that the room can make a huge difference. I've attached a pic and a floor plan below. Its a large room, but is it large enough to change the sonic characteristics of the speakers that much? I've messed around with speaker placement and angling, nothing has made much of a difference.

Basically, in my apartment, I'm getting the polar opposite of what these speakers are supposed to sound like and what I heard earlier today. Thoughts?

Room can make huge differences, a lot more than a CD player would.

Some negative things I notice are the right speaker is close to the wall, Definitive recommends 3' away minimum I think. It has a lot less room than the left speaker. The left one is kind of close to the wall too and they are both in that alcove that could be causing weird reflections or some other issue.

My guess would be that the left speaker being so tight in that corner could make things more muffled since it doesn't have enough room. You could try moving the couch and table, running some longer wire, and placing the speakers in the middle of the wall the couch is on now and see if that sounds better. Just testing it without the alcove and being in the corner would let you know if that makes a difference. Then maybe you could just swap the TV and couch positions. I'm not sure though, I could be wrong. Someone else may know better, but I would at least try them in the middle of the open wall and see if that's better.
post #30062 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post

Room can make huge differences, a lot more than a CD player would.

Some negative things I notice are the right speaker is close to the wall, Definitive recommends 3' away minimum I think. It has a lot less room than the left speaker. The left one is kind of close to the wall too and they are both in that alcove that could be causing weird reflections or some other issue.

My guess would be that the left speaker being so tight in that corner could make things more muffled since it doesn't have enough room. You could try moving the couch and table, running some longer wire, and placing the speakers in the middle of the wall the couch is on now and see if that sounds better. Just testing it without the alcove and being in the corner would let you know if that makes a difference. Then maybe you could just swap the TV and couch positions. I'm not sure though, I could be wrong. Someone else may know better, but I would at least try them in the middle of the open wall and see if that's better.

I don't think the placement is the issue. I have some 2006s in my family room about 18" from the rear wall and 4' from the sides. I pulled them into my dedicated HT and had them only about 1' x 1' from the corners on each side. They sounded just about the same. The family room has an Onkyo 806 and the dedicated HT is using a Onkyo 709 as a pre amp to an Outlaw audio 7125 amp. So I would say it's the Denon 391 and possibly the wire.
post #30063 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

I don't think the placement is the issue. I have some 2006s in my family room about 18" from the rear wall and 4' from the sides. I pulled them into my dedicated HT and had them only about 1' x 1' from the corners on each side. They sounded just about the same. The family room has an Onkyo 806 and the dedicated HT is using a Onkyo 709 as a pre amp to an Outlaw audio 7125 amp. So I would say it's the Denon 391 and possibly the wire.

I disagree. Unless the wire is corroded and has a bad connection, any wire should sound the same at reasonable volumes and I would think any new receiver would sound pretty much the same at reasonable volumes (i.e. <1W/channel). Room correction would sound different between receivers, but I would imagine about anything should be able to put out 1W of power that sounds good that would drive those speakers to 92dB without any room gain.

You can't compare speaker sound that far apart either. How long was it between listening when you compared them in the family room and theater room? Remembering how they sound is much different than A/B-ing them. I have done a bunch of measurements with moving speakers around and just a few inches of movement can make the speakers sound different. The difference of a foot could be the difference of a sub/speaker sounding good and being in a null where you can't hear that frequency at all any more. Changing to a different part of the room or changing entire rooms could absolutely make a huge difference. That is why speakers often don't sound the same in a showroom vs when you bring them home. You could have gotten lucky and they sounded about the same in each room if you didn't have any mode or reflection issues, but room and speaker placement are absolutely the biggest determinant on how speakers sound. A $200 receiver and $10 wire in a treated room with well placed speakers would no doubt sound better than a $100k+ source/amp setup with speakers thrown in the corner of a room like that.
post #30064 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post

I disagree. Unless the wire is corroded and has a bad connection, any wire should sound the same at reasonable volumes and I would think any new receiver would sound pretty much the same at reasonable volumes (i.e. <1W/channel). Room correction would sound different between receivers, but I would imagine about anything should be able to put out 1W of power that sounds good that would drive those speakers to 92dB without any room gain.

You can't compare speaker sound that far apart either. How long was it between listening when you compared them in the family room and theater room? Remembering how they sound is much different than A/B-ing them. I have done a bunch of measurements with moving speakers around and just a few inches of movement can make the speakers sound different. The difference of a foot could be the difference of a sub/speaker sounding good and being in a null where you can't hear that frequency at all any more. Changing to a different part of the room or changing entire rooms could absolutely make a huge difference. That is why speakers often don't sound the same in a showroom vs when you bring them home. You could have gotten lucky and they sounded about the same in each room if you didn't have any mode or reflection issues, but room and speaker placement are absolutely the biggest determinant on how speakers sound. A $200 receiver and $10 wire in a treated room with well placed speakers would no doubt sound better than a $100k+ source/amp setup with speakers thrown in the corner of a room like that.

You focused on my comment on the wire which I used the word possibly and you answered the exact reason I said possibly. I have found room correction to be minimally effective. I got more control with several acoustic panels and bass traps.

Everything in this forum is just opinion. But to answer your question on the length of time in comparing them, it was the amount of time I unhooked them in one room, carried them about 25 feet and connected them in the other room. I did it on 3 different occasions since I was unsatisfied with the sound from the mains in my HT which I have since replaced. And I will tell you, the sound of the 2006 with the Onkyo 709 by itself, the 806 and the 709 as a pre amp to the 7125 sound different . Nothing compares to the 7125, especially at 2 channels driven which is what I do. HT magazine put it at 189w each channel for 2 channels. Pull up the specs on the 391. I have my 2006s in a wide open 34x25x10 open room and a tried them in an enclosed 21x12.5x9 HT room. Not a huge difference either way. All just my opinion, but I have moved my way up on receivers and amps for about the last decade and I do find improvement the more power I add. Now I am at the sound control point.
post #30065 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

You focused on my comment on the wire which I used the word possibly and you answered the exact reason I said possibly. I have found room correction to be minimally effective. I got more control with several acoustic panels and bass traps.

Everything in this forum is just opinion. But to answer your question on the length of time in comparing them, it was the amount of time I unhooked them in one room, carried them about 25 feet and connected them in the other room. I did it on 3 different occasions since I was unsatisfied with the sound from the mains in my HT which I have since replaced. And I will tell you, the sound of the 2006 with the Onkyo 709 by itself, the 806 and the 709 as a pre amp to the 7125 sound different . Nothing compares to the 7125, especially at 2 channels driven which is what I do. HT magazine put it at 189w each channel for 2 channels. Pull up the specs on the 391. I have my 2006s in a wide open 34x25x10 open room and a tried them in an enclosed 21x12.5x9 HT room. Not a huge difference either way. All just my opinion, but I have moved my way up on receivers and amps for about the last decade and I do find improvement the more power I add. Now I am at the sound control point.

I have found room correction to work pretty well for me at smoothing response. It has made a significant difference. It won't do anything about big nulls though, which would require treatment or different placement. For a normal living room that would likely not see any treatment, I have found it works well though. I know lots of people don't like it too.

I don't subscribe to the idea that amps make a difference, but did you do any blind tests with these amps? Unless they were level matched and A/B'd, it's not very accurate to compare different amps at different times at different volumes. Just the volume difference alone during an A/B test could make one amp sound better because it's louder. There is a pretty popular competition about amps I've read around here where some guy offered a lot of money if anyone could blindly tell the difference between level matched amps and no one has done it. I don't think I've ever seen anything where people have been able to tell the difference in a blind, level matched test.

Now, that is for amps operating within their given power. Trying to overpower an amp will cause distortion and would be noticeable, so that would definitely be a reason to upgrade. These speakers are 92dB sensitive though, so it only takes 20W of power to hit reference level peaks of 105dB, which is pretty damn loud for >200Hz. And that is not taking into account any room gain. So his 75W/ch receiver @.08% THD should have no problem hitting that without any distortion. So even if he had a 1000W/ch amp, there shouldn't be any difference if there's no distortion. If he is for some reason often listening >110dB, then the receiver would be distorting and a higher power amp would sound cleaner.

I am surprised you haven't heard a difference in speaker position though. I have always had to move them around to find a place that sounds best and that's backed up with good looking measurements. Subs are even worse because they are hard to treat without actively trying. I would bet the built in subs are what's giving him problems. A bad position can make a sub sound boomy, and that boominess could make the whole speaker sound worse.

And I'm not trying to attack your or anything, I am just curious as to how you compared your amps and am putting out real numbers that are easily obtained and compared. I know people talk about having better control and dynamics, etc with different amps, but that is not as easy to define or measure.
Edited by bradthebold88 - 11/10/13 at 10:56am
post #30066 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post

I have found room correction to work pretty well for me at smoothing response. It has made a significant difference. It won't do anything about big nulls though, which would require treatment or different placement. For a normal living room that would likely not see any treatment, I have found it works well though. I know lots of people don't like it too.

I don't subscribe to the idea that amps make a difference, but did you do any blind tests with these amps? Unless they were level matched and A/B'd, it's not very accurate to compare different amps at different times at different volumes. Just the volume difference alone during an A/B test could make one amp sound better because it's louder. There is a pretty popular competition about amps I've read around here where some guy offered a lot of money if anyone could blindly tell the difference between level matched amps and no one has done it. I don't think I've ever seen anything where people have been able to tell the difference in a blind, level matched test.

Now, that is for amps operating within their given power. Trying to overpower an amp will cause distortion and would be noticeable, so that would definitely be a reason to upgrade. These speakers are 92dB sensitive though, so it only takes 20W of power to hit reference level peaks of 105dB, which is pretty damn loud for >200Hz. And that is not taking into account any room gain. So his 75W/ch receiver @.08% THD should have no problem hitting that without any distortion. So even if he had a 1000W/ch amp, there shouldn't be any difference if there's no distortion. If he is for some reason often listening >110dB, then the receiver would be distorting and a higher power amp would sound cleaner.

I am surprised you haven't heard a difference in speaker position though. I have always had to move them around to find a place that sounds best and that's backed up with good looking measurements. Subs are even worse because they are hard to treat without actively trying. I would bet the built in subs are what's giving him problems. A bad position can make a sub sound boomy, and that boominess could make the whole speaker sound worse.

I really don't want to get into a debate with you. I gave my opinion, you gave yours. I have tried multiple positions for all my speakers and sometimes a room does not give you options. The original poster does not look like he has a lot of options. I had the same problem in my HT when I tried the 2006s and went with the SM65s because of subwoofer placement. The 2006s forced me to move my sub out of the corner impacting my deep bass. And yes, even an inch matters. It did with my sub. I lost a nice chest thump during my moving things around and just moving the sub an inch closer to the wall gave it back.
The biggest difference I have found between show room speakers and when you get them home is power. Nice clean power. IMHO, that Denon he has is low end for the speakers he has.
Here’s a word of warning to the original poster. Spend as little time in this forum as possible. It will make you never be satisfied with whatever you have. You will always be pursuing the perfect sound and you will have constant quest for the perfect sound. 
Now I am off to Best Buy to buy a TVs for my guest room and possibly pick up a second set of SR8080BPs for my HT. I am just getting rid of my Boston Acoustics VS series.
post #30067 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

I really don't want to get into a debate with you. I gave my opinion, you gave yours. I have tried multiple positions for all my speakers and sometimes a room does not give you options. The original poster does not look like he has a lot of options. I had the same problem in my HT when I tried the 2006s and went with the SM65s because of subwoofer placement. The 2006s forced me to move my sub out of the corner impacting my deep bass. And yes, even an inch matters. It did with my sub. I lost a nice chest thump during my moving things around and just moving the sub an inch closer to the wall gave it back.
The biggest difference I have found between show room speakers and when you get them home is power. Nice clean power. IMHO, that Denon he has is low end for the speakers he has.
Here’s a word of warning to the original poster. Spend as little time in this forum as possible. It will make you never be satisfied with whatever you have. You will always be pursuing the perfect sound and you will have constant quest for the perfect sound. 
Now I am off to Best Buy to buy a TVs for my guest room and possibly pick up a second set of SR8080BPs for my HT. I am just getting rid of my Boston Acoustics VS series.

I think debate is good and part of the function of the forum. As I said, I was not trying to attack you, I was just providing info about why I think what I do and asking why you think what you think. Then others can read both sides to help them decide what they want to believe.

As to OP, I would try different wire and positions. That is free or cheap at least before upgrading your receiver. Honestly, I would buy a $25 decibel meter and take measurements before I bought a new receiver too. That is cheaper and would give you some information about what needs correcting. You are only using ~1w to reach average reference level volumes and probably less normally. And having the sub having its own built in amp is much less taxing in the receiver as well.

If you have the money, upgrading your receiver would give you more features as well though. That would be why I would upgrade. Just a new receiver alone could improve the sound quality as well, I'm not sure. I do know for sure that is not ideal speaker placement though.
post #30068 of 30939
"Sometimes a room does not give you options"

And that is something we all have, or are embracing..

For many it comes down to planting the speakers where they "can/must" go and then correcting what you can with AVR/calibration.

For the OP, if it hasn't been mentioned, try angling or a bit of "toe-in", somewhat pointing the speakers to the outside of the main listening position. Also, with the 7004s the powered drivers are mirror imaged thus try swapping speakers from left to right - with the side drivers both facing out and or both facing in.
Hopefully that will help.

I remember back in the mid 90s when I brought home my first pair of BP2000s. My new flagship AVR was being shipped from Japan thus I auditioned them first in our media room via my wife's 65watt 1990 Kenwood receiver. Now, that room was about 800sq ft sealed (22 x 36ish) with freedom of front wall placement. Most of my friends were heavily into music at the time and had much more $$ tied up than I but we all could not believe how alive the speakers were with that small $110 receiver. It was the room - the DTs thrived there. :-)
post #30069 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by abinitio View Post

Just picked up a pair of 7004's. I auditioned them at the guys house, and they sounded great. Detailed, solid range, and clean at loud levels. He had a high end cd player and amp. I just got the 7004s home and they sound completely different. They are very laid back, and almost muffled. Detail is poor and the the dynamic sound I heard at his house is lacking.

I'm playing CD's through a PS3 connected to a lowly Denon AVR-391. Do you guys think those components could make that much of difference? I have the PS3 connected to the Denon with a random HDMI cord. I'm also using cheap speaker wire, although I can't imagine that would really matter. I've checked all of the Denon settings. Its just playing in simple stereo. I know that the room can make a huge difference. I've attached a pic and a floor plan below. Its a large room, but is it large enough to change the sonic characteristics of the speakers that much? I've messed around with speaker placement and angling, nothing has made much of a difference.

Basically, in my apartment, I'm getting the polar opposite of what these speakers are supposed to sound like and what I heard earlier today. Thoughts?




Did you run audessey? This can make a tremendous difference. Are you using a separate sub? If not, did you tell your receiver that the speakers were "large" and set sub to "no"? Did you play with the sub gain on the back of the speakesr? Maybe starting at around 10 o'clock and going as far as 2 o'clock to figure out how much bass is warranted? Are you sending audio to your receiver via bitstream from your PS3 to allow receiver to decode? Do you have Audessey dynamic eq/volume on? Please let us know your receiver settings and how you setup/calibrated everything. There are many little calibration tidbits that can really make a difference in sound.
post #30070 of 30939
Thanks to everyone for your replies and also the lively discussion. I hate not individually responding to every post, but there too many great suggestions going in different directions. I've read over everything a few times over.

I spent a long time today messing with placement, and I was able to make improvements in the overall sound. I will say, that my original picture was taken from a poor angle. The speakers were about 15 inches from the wall and had plenty of space from the TV cabinet. Since then, I've brought the speakers out to about 2.5 feet and they now have about a 20% toe in (pics below). With this setup, I achieved significantly stronger imaging. Also, detail was improved and I felt the dynamic response was stronger.

Even with the improvements however, I definitely have huge gaps in my frequency response. I've listened to a ton of music and movies, and noticed that male voices are muffled as compared to female voices. In the Band of Brothers scene below, some of the explosions were insanely loud, whereas the guys yelling were barely audible times. Its really noticeable in music with electric guitars that run up and down the octaves. Also, even though the speaker placement improved the sound, its simply not realistic to keep them halfway into my living room.

I've decided to get a new receiver and see if I can EQ out some of the large dips I have. Funny enough, bass response is actually too good haha. At least too good for my apartment. tongue.gif

So now I'm going to start doing receiver research and get something with Audyssey, etc. Again, thanks to all for the discussion. I'll update with the progress.



post #30071 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by abinitio View Post

Thanks to everyone for your replies and also the lively discussion. I hate not individually responding to every post, but there too many great suggestions going in different directions. I've read over everything a few times over.

I spent a long time today messing with placement, and I was able to make improvements in the overall sound. I will say, that my original picture was taken from a poor angle. The speakers were about 15 inches from the wall and had plenty of space from the TV cabinet. Since then, I've brought the speakers out to about 2.5 feet and they now have about a 20% toe in (pics below). With this setup, I achieved significantly stronger imaging. Also, detail was improved and I felt the dynamic response was stronger.

Even with the improvements however, I definitely have huge gaps in my frequency response. I've listened to a ton of music and movies, and noticed that male voices are muffled as compared to female voices. In the Band of Brothers scene below, some of the explosions were insanely loud, whereas the guys yelling were barely audible times. Its really noticeable in music with electric guitars that run up and down the octaves. Also, even though the speaker placement improved the sound, its simply not realistic to keep them halfway into my living room.

I've decided to get a new receiver and see if I can EQ out some of the large dips I have. Funny enough, bass response is actually too good haha. At least too good for my apartment. tongue.gif

So now I'm going to start doing receiver research and get something with Audyssey, etc. Again, thanks to all for the discussion. I'll update with the progress.




Audyssey should help nicely, it's critical to get the bass level as flat with the mids before you run the Audyssey setup. I have the bass volume on my BP7000SC at around 35-40% when I run Audyssey. If it's too high, Audyssey freaks and tends to suck out all the bass.
post #30072 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

Audyssey should help nicely, it's critical to get the bass level as flat with the mids before you run the Audyssey setup. I have the bass volume on my BP7000SC at around 35-40% when I run Audyssey. If it's too high, Audyssey freaks and tends to suck out all the bass.

That is definitely true. It was a nightmare trying to guess what level to set my bass at. Too low and they would get set at ~120Hz, too high and Audyssey would kill the bass and mids along with it. I use limited band pink noise test tones to set the mids to 75dB then match the subs right at 75dB one speaker at a time before I run Audyssey now and it always works. It's a huge pain to do, but works much better than guessing.
post #30073 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post

That is definitely true. It was a nightmare trying to guess what level to set my bass at. Too low and they would get set at ~120Hz, too high and Audyssey would kill the bass and mids along with it. I use limited band pink noise test tones to set the mids to 75dB then match the subs right at 75dB one speaker at a time before I run Audyssey now and it always works. It's a huge pain to do, but works much better than guessing.

+1 on that...and something to remember if you ever move the speakers because the characteristics of your room, as well as whatever standalone subs you may have, can influence the choice of crossover. I found that when I had the sub and non-sub sections of my CS-8080 matched, but the center channel was in a shelf with a couple of inches of room on top, I'd get a crossover of 90 Hz from Audyssey XT32. However, taking it to a separate stand on an open top shelf (nothing above it) at first gave me a crossover that was even _higher_ (120 Hz). Turns out when it was "unencumbered", the woofer on the CS-8080 was now playing about 5-6 db lower than the mid/upper range. Re-doing the matching got me a crossover of 60 or 80 Hz easily, with associated improvement in the mid-bass.
post #30074 of 30939
I still have a pair of pro monitor 1000's up for grabs. PM me if interested smile.gif
post #30075 of 30939
I may be putting my c/l/r 3000 up for sale soon. It ia all black, in very good condition. Sorry to ask but does anyone know what a fair market value is for one these days? The only reason for the sale is that I am getting some new front l/r speakers and will probably get the matching cc.
post #30076 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I may be putting my c/l/r 3000 up for sale soon. It ia all black, in very good condition. Sorry to ask but does anyone know what a fair market value is for one these days? The only reason for the sale is that I am getting some new front l/r speakers and will probably get the matching cc.

Good deals are in the $400s and normal expensive ones are in the $700-800 range. I would probably list it at ~$650 and be willing to negotiate a little. If you list on here, maybe a little less than that firm. I got mine flawless for $430 though and probably wouldn't pay more than $500 for one since I've seen so many in the $400 range. Depends on how long you want to wait to sell it and who sees it.
post #30077 of 30939
Hey if anyone is interested I have the following for sale(have original boxes and have been babied).

2x BP8080ST
CS8080HD
2x BPVX

If anyone is interested in all of any of these let me know.

Wife says i need to downsize until we're out of an apartment :-(. One day soon ill have a basement or a loft that is sound proofed with 9.2 surround....one day..but until then ill start saving for the new toys! Gonna downgrade for now im thinking maybe BP8040s annd CS8040HD no surrounds for now. Wife wants a soundbar but i cant get talked into that, no chance.
post #30078 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by anteroth View Post

Hey if anyone is interested I have the following for sale(have original boxes and have been babied).

2x BP8080ST
CS8080HD
2x BPVX

If anyone is interested in all of any of these let me know.

Wife says i need to downsize until we're out of an apartment :-(. One day soon ill have a basement or a loft that is sound proofed with 9.2 surround....one day..but until then ill start saving for the new toys! Gonna downgrade for now im thinking maybe BP8040s annd CS8040HD no surrounds for now. Wife wants a soundbar but i cant get talked into that, no chance.

Unless she is leaving you over it, I would move them closer to the wall and buy some cheap PM 800s for surrounds right now. Don't go to the 8040s. Find some compromise.
post #30079 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

Unless she is leaving you over it, I would move them closer to the wall and buy some cheap PM 800s for surrounds right now. Don't go to the 8040s. Find some compromise.

Compared to bookshelves, 8040 towers are huge and probably wouldn't seem much different than the 8080s if size is the issue. And the centers aren't much different sized nor the surrounds if they're on the wall. Is size the issue or money or ...?
post #30080 of 30939
Anyone own a Supercube Reference? What's the TRUE ultra low end extension on those? Oh, and I don't know if you guys have downloaded an HD copy of Elysium yet, but MY GOD that soundtrack is a subwoofer workout. Tons of super low bass rumbles and sweeps to below what my SC1 can do, but still jaw dropping. And that's only a 2 channel copy spruced up by my HK's Logic 7. Anything not bolted down will suffer when the actual Blu-ray DTS-HD version comes out.
post #30081 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by klh1790 View Post

Anyone own a Supercube Reference? What's the TRUE ultra low end extension on those? Oh, and I don't know if you guys have downloaded an HD copy of Elysium yet, but MY GOD that soundtrack is a subwoofer workout. Tons of super low bass rumbles and sweeps to below what my SC1 can do, but still jaw dropping. And that's only a 2 channel copy spruced up by my HK's Logic 7. Anything not bolted down will suffer when the actual Blu-ray DTS-HD version comes out.

post #30082 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by klh1790 View Post

Anyone own a Supercube Reference? What's the TRUE ultra low end extension on those? Oh, and I don't know if you guys have downloaded an HD copy of Elysium yet, but MY GOD that soundtrack is a subwoofer workout. Tons of super low bass rumbles and sweeps to below what my SC1 can do, but still jaw dropping. And that's only a 2 channel copy spruced up by my HK's Logic 7. Anything not bolted down will suffer when the actual Blu-ray DTS-HD version comes out.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/18118-definitive-technology-super-cube-reference.html

Looks like it starts dropping off at ~24Hz and is -10dB at 20Hz. I had a pair of supercube references in the bottom of my BP7000s that are probably close enough to separate supercube references. They started dropping off at the same point at least. They sound good in their frequency range but do not go subsonic. I had a pair of sealed $175 15" Dayton subs at the time that played flat to 10Hz in the same room and were just as loud.

They are not worth the price unless you get a crazy deal on them. A new ID sub priced similar to a used supercube reference should easily outperform it. I'm not sure what supercube references go for, but if it's half of MSRP or more, there are subs that would beat it in extension and output, like the HSU VTF-15H.
post #30083 of 30939
Yes, I had a 15H. It destroyed the subs in my 8060 towers. Definitive needs to get with the times and offer a comparable sub to what the ID companies can do. I understand most of the market they do is prob some guy coming into best buy of video only but a couple hundred dollars can equal the sc reference in the DIY world. Nonetheless bass is fun!
post #30084 of 30939
I have some SM450s as my mains and was wondering if anyone has tried upgrading the crossovers in their DefTechs? Im not talking redesign, but replacing the components with better ones at the same values? After doing some searching, it will cost about $60 per pair to just upgrade the caps ; Solen PB on the mid and Clarity SA on the tweeter. Also, thinking about lining the internal walls with some 1/2" acoustic foam. Any thoughts?
post #30085 of 30939
I currently have a 5.1 set up (def tech rls IIIs for LCR and 2 cheap Sonys from a htitb as side surrounds). I just ran into a pair of used rls IIIs and could not pass them up cuz it was ridiculously cheap. Now I'm not really sure what to do with them. I have gotten some great advice here over the years and was wondering if someone can help me out again.

My onkyo 818 is capable of 7.1 so I was wondering how to best utilize these speakers.

1) Use them as side surrounds and use the Sony's as rear surrounds

2) Use them as front heights and leave the Sony's where they are currently

Here's my basement layout:




Center has been installed

Thanks for reading
post #30086 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgvolvo View Post

I currently have a 5.1 set up (def tech rls IIIs for LCR and 2 cheap Sonys from a htitb as side surrounds). I just ran into a pair of used rls IIIs and could not pass them up cuz it was ridiculously cheap. Now I'm not really sure what to do with them. I have gotten some great advice here over the years and was wondering if someone can help me out again.

My onkyo 818 is capable of 7.1 so I was wondering how to best utilize these speakers.

1) Use them as side surrounds and use the Sony's as rear surrounds

2) Use them as front heights and leave the Sony's where they are currently


Thanks for reading

Rear surrounds are the only supported 7.1 setup that has actual content going to the speakers. Wides and heights are synthesized by the receiver. I would move the sony's around and try them in the rear and height positions and see what you like better. Then after you decide if you want heights or rear surrounds, you can decide which speakers to put where. I would use the Definitives as the side surrounds or heights like you planned though and use the sonys in the less important spot.
post #30087 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by klh1790 View Post

Anyone own a Supercube Reference? What's the TRUE ultra low end extension on those? Oh, and I don't know if you guys have downloaded an HD copy of Elysium yet, but MY GOD that soundtrack is a subwoofer workout. Tons of super low bass rumbles and sweeps to below what my SC1 can do, but still jaw dropping. And that's only a 2 channel copy spruced up by my HK's Logic 7. Anything not bolted down will suffer when the actual Blu-ray DTS-HD version comes out.
I was able to pick up a year old used one for 530 which was a great deal. I will say it is loud and clean to around 20 hz mine is corner loaded. It is not a subsonic sub. I also run mythos st and it has more output at higher volumes and digs a bit deeper. For its size and my position in room its a good sub. Oh yea and the price was a no brainer.
post #30088 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post

Rear surrounds are the only supported 7.1 setup that has actual content going to the speakers. Wides and heights are synthesized by the receiver. I would move the sony's around and try them in the rear and height positions and see what you like better. Then after you decide if you want heights or rear surrounds, you can decide which speakers to put where. I would use the Definitives as the side surrounds or heights like you planned though and use the sonys in the less important spot.

I wasn't aware about the rear channel in 7.1. Seem like the best option will be to use the rls IIIs as side and the Sonys as rears as you mentioned. However I will try using the Sonys as heights also just to be sure. Maybe my room layout will sound better with heights, who knows. Thanks for the advice.
post #30089 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgvolvo View Post


If you've got the space for 'em, I'd definitely make the RLS III your main surrounds, and I'd probably mount the Sonys as rears temporarily to see how you like them... having your 5 main speakers all identical should be really nice, and having an extra two channels that don't match perfectly may end up being a little distracting. But maybe not.

But I'm really curious how you like the RLS in-walls; I'm on the verge of buying RLS II for my living room setup and can't find ANYWHERE to demo them, but have heard nothing but good things. Mythos 10 is also on my list, not sure if I'd rather go with something easier to relocate if necessary! I feel like I've got to ask about your LCR and TV placement, but obviously whatever you've done works for you... I would imagine moving your TV down and your speakers up until they meet somewhere in the middle, closer to eye/ear level for a seated audience. But I'm sure you've got your reasons... once I start carving my own walls up, who knows what I'm going to end up with!

edit - I looked back into your past posts and see that you did this to accomodate a vertical center. I was under the impression that the RLS would still work well horizontally as a center, but admire your dedication to get it done the best way possible!
Edited by 0db - 11/15/13 at 1:16pm
post #30090 of 30939
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0db View Post

If you've got the space for 'em, I'd definitely make the RLS III your main surrounds, and I'd probably mount the Sonys as rears temporarily to see how you like them... having your 5 main speakers all identical should be really nice, and having an extra two channels that don't match perfectly may end up being a little distracting. But maybe not.

But I'm really curious how you like the RLS in-walls; I'm on the verge of buying RLS II for my living room setup and can't find ANYWHERE to demo them, but have heard nothing but good things. Mythos 10 is also on my list, not sure if I'd rather go with something easier to relocate if necessary! I feel like I've got to ask about your LCR and TV placement, but obviously whatever you've done works for you... I would imagine moving your TV down and your speakers up until they meet somewhere in the middle, closer to eye/ear level for a seated audience. But I'm sure you've got your reasons... once I start carving my own walls up, who knows what I'm going to end up with!

At first I wasn't too impressed with them. I previously had the bp6 towers which are one of the least expensive towers definitive sells. And clr 2002 for center. I was used to the bipolar sound since all three were bipolar speaker and completely filled the room. BUT, once these babies (rls IIIs) broke in and were properly calibrated by my new receiver (onkyo 818), all I can say is WOW!!! The clarity was unbelievable. The highs and mids were as good if not better then my previous setup. They do lack some low end but nothing my supercube III couldn't handle. I really was amazed how good a in-wall speaker can sound.

I mounted them vertically because I really didn't want to mess with the studs to mount the center horizontally. They are a bit lower then what is recommended but not by much at all. When sitting, the tweeters are practically ear level.

If you want a quality in-wall speaker, don't hesitate to buy these. If you are patient, you can find them on eBay (rls III) for around $300. Bajawaverunner sells them refurbished at around that price range. But you may be able to find them brand new for the same price or a few bucks more like I did.
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