Ascend SE Owner's Thread - Page 119

I relocated my speakers today more towards the screen and I'm in the process now of re-running my room correction program now(Trinnov). "For improved imaging, the midrange and tweeter utilize Yamaha's exclusive waveguide horns." quote from product page. Not sure how much of a difference this makes but its one of their selling points. I'll post more when Trinnov finishes. Also I notices the sensitivity of the 340's as 92db where my Yamaha's are 88db. Also the 340's are 8 ohm where the Yamaha's are 6 ohm. Taking into account both of these specs wouldnt the 340's play louder than the Yamaha's?

I really like the tweeter design of the CBM-170 SE this speaker definitely should sound good with that tweeter design , while the cabinet is not the most attractive .

One of my first pick list was this brand, but I couldn't let pass the sale of the energy while they may not be perfect speakers, but for the price I couldn't ask for more.


I only paid $159.90 for each energy v5.1 monitor in a beautiful piano rosenut , I couldn't let pass:).

If the Energies sound good to you..then good deal. There has been many comparisons of the 170 SE to the energy...

Got to do what you feel is right.

Jtenn, Trinnov is extremely accurate and precise in setting up the "levels" even though sensitivity is a little different. No worries there. Trinnov is crazy awesome, btw! Dig it and would spend weeks playing with all the settings. I've posted before that I am blown away with how movies and HD is mixed when it comes to center channel signals. So much is sent thru that channel and I have told others that to see just how much, disconnect the L and R leaving just the center and surrounds and experience the importance of a solid center with dynamic capabilities. The 340's are sweet and mighty and they were built for that purpose. They are so capable and they rock! Curious how your Trinnov sets everything up.

I'm really leaning towards purchasing a different setup using the 340's for the front 3 and the 200's for the rear 4 surrounds. I REALLY like the looks of my Yamaha's though. Their piano black finish is awesome. The most important part is the sound, so that's why I'm considering trying something different. I wish I could have listened to other speakers before buying the Yamaha's but nothing was really available here. Hopefully I'll really like them.

I read the owners manual I found at the Ascend website and it recommended placing the front speakers 1-2' from the wall behind them. Since I have a projector that would place the speakers 1-2' in front of the screen. It didn't really say about the center speaker distance but I'm guessing it would be the same. Is this really necessary? They also mention wall mounting them with 3" of clearance. Why the difference in distances? If you were using them on stands why wouldn't the 3" of clearance be sufficient?

3" would be the minimum for the port to breathe. Wall mounting speakers is a compromise over stand placement with the speakers out from the walls. So the 1' to 2' feet would be true for many speakers. Even your speakers that you have right now would benefit from being pulled out from the wall, but you do what you can.

It's just that's it's not that practical to have the speakers sitting out into the room1-2' since the screen is wall mounted.

Sorry jtenn, I got back home last night a lot later than I had planned to! (isn't that always the case when traveling?)

First let's talk about your left & right front speakers. Earlier I had commented that it looked as though the loveseat possibly came between the right speaker and some of the viewers. If this is the case, then it should be corrected for as many viewers as possible. We'll do what we can for the viewers in the loveseat regarding sound quality, but at least make sure that there is a direct line-of-sight between each speaker and each viewer. Additionally, you may want to consider toeing the speakers inward a bit--try a few angles (including straight ahead) and stick with whatever ends up sounding the best to you (before applying room correction--the easier you make its job, the better it will do it).

OK, now for the tricky part--the center speaker. I'll be using rough estimates of distances based on what you've told me and measuring the photo of your home theater. As mentioned earlier, a horizontal 340SE should work fine for the viewers on the couch. Its vertical dispersion is extremely wide in this orientation, so there are no concerns about it being placed so low to the floor, and your carpet and rug should take care of the reflections from the floor. The central viewer on the couch will get the best, essentially uncompromised sound quality from the center, while the other viewers on the couch will be approximately 9-10 degrees off-axis (estimated), which should be well within acceptable limits for properly designed horizontal 2-way MTM centers. To get a visual idea of the effects, look at the "Vertical Response in Degrees" measurement in the second graph on the 340SE measurements page:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340mmeas.html

When the 340SE is oriented horizontally, the vertical measurements in the graph represent its horizontal response, and likewise its horizontal measurements represent its vertical response. +/-10 degrees isn't bad, but much past 15 degrees is going to be really noticeable (I can easily notice some difference at 5 degrees or less if I listened even semi-critically). By the way, this is very good for a 2-way MTM (that doesn't have the extreme tweeter offset that the 200SE and very few other speakers have)--it would be difficult to find one that is better, but it is still of a configuration that was intended all along to limit dispersion on this axis.

Now, what a vertical 340SE sitting flat on the floor would do instead is offer very wide horizontal dispersion (as shown in the graph referenced above), which is good for a center in situations like yours, but it would also place everybody at least 10 degrees off-axis vertically--the sound quality will likely improve somewhat for the viewers on the loveseat, stay pretty much the same for the off-axis seats on the couch, and become worse than before for the central seat (but not any worse than that of the other seats on the couch). I think this could possibly be a fair compromise, but we could do better by tilting the center speaker up by about 10 degrees (the front of the speaker raised by approximately 2 inches with the rear still on the floor). This should, using my rough estimates, give all of the viewers on the couch virtually uncompromised sound quality, and the viewers on the loveseat much improved sound quality--of the latter, the one farthest from the screen will be vertically off-axis by about 10 degrees and horizontally off by about 45 degrees, but the overall result should be much better than being 45 degrees off-axis horizontally from a horizontal center (using a vertical center makes a big difference in my similar layout).

As stated earlier, these are only rough estimates. If you want me to figure out more precise angles and such, including how high to raise the front of your center speaker, then just let me know and I'll tell you what distances to measure. Feel free to experiment with the effects I've described for yourself using your current center speaker. It's impossible for me to predict how significant they may be from your point of view, but for me the optimizations I've been talking about make audible and worthwhile improvements. And in my opinion, the better your speakers generally sound, the more you can hear the differences that placement and orientation make.
Edited by Robert Cook - 3/11/13 at 10:47am

Depends on what you are striving for...

For aesthetics, yes, some do not want the speakers to be that far in front of the TV. But for the best sound, it is best to have speaker away from the walls, and in front of the plane of the TV.

It is all about trade-offs and what works best for you own tastes/needs.

Dave did everything right (not that I am even worthy to judge), but it's still a 2-way MTM center.

But the fact remains that the two midwoofers, separated by some distance, albeit minimized for the design, are still going to interfere with one another (and the tweeter) for those who are off-center along one axis--one midwoofer is always going to be closer than the other for such viewers, which has effects that are easily measurable and for some folks just as easily audible. It's nobody's fault, it's the nature of the thing, and my goal here is to help people get the best performance out of their speakers and systems.

There is a reason that speakers are generally oriented vertically, and that the Sierra Horizon, for example, has its tweeter placed above its midrange driver (or below if you invert the speaker) rather than these two drivers being placed side-by-side, and that is wider horizontal dispersion and superior sound quality for horizontally off-axis viewers. There are also reasons that horizontal center speakers exist, such as placement issues and in some cases aesthetics, but they are a compromise to sound quality when used in this orientation, no question about it. If you have to compromise for one reason or another, then fine, but if you don't have to compromise, then don't do it!

These features generally help make the room less of a factor, and are good for some things but maybe not so good for others (such as those who have funky layouts and would benefit from wider dispersion, as well as those who prefer to have more reflected sound).

It depends on how these specs are measured, so it's really impossible to predict. Even the volume control can "lie" to you in some ways. From experience, I'm satisfied that Ascend speakers are as efficient as claimed--they seem to do an excellent job of getting the most out of amplifiers without prematurely shutting them down, which I can't say for every speaker out there.
Edited by Robert Cook - 3/11/13 at 10:57am

Well, Ascend isn't making any in walls, and i need some. So I'm going to remove the drivers and crossovers from my 340se's, cut holes in the drywall, and flush mount them in the wall.
Any bets on them sounding good or bad?
They will be crossed over at 80hz.

Robert,
I moved my mains closer to the screen. They were already toed in slightly so I stuck with that. In the Ascend owners manual it mentions moving them out from the wall directly behind them 1-2'. This places the mains and center out into the room 2' and also 2' out from the screen. I guess I could always remove the screen from the wall and buy brackets to mount it away from the wall that way the mains and center wouldn't look so out of place. Also with my current center, it's on a stand that is 9" in height. Should I modify that so it has a slight upward tilt?

That's why I said we do what we can. My HT setup is in my living room, so everything about it is not optimal either.

If at all possible mount them to a MDF or plywood baffle to improve acoustics somewhat.

Well I bought some brackets to move my screen out from the wall 12". That should help with the aesthetics of room. I'll rerun Trinnov again after moving everything and report back.

That will compromise the soundstange/imaging for two channel music.

That will cause extended baffles. Also, since there will no longer be an enclosure, that will affect the sound negatively since the design accounted for the baffle size and enclosure volume.

I think you have 340's. You should contact Ascend about activating the EXBAC circuitry and the overall project.

I don't really use the room for anything but HT so it should be OK.

Yeah...like I said, there are trade-offs for everything. It all depends on what you choose to be more critical.

I don't think that you necessarily have to do that, though, as long as the speakers sound alright to you (especially after room correction is applied). I would try it both ways before making a decision. What concerns me about placing it 2' from the wall is that this could potentially cause a mid-bass "suck-out" centered around 140 Hz that Trinnov cannot correct (and just trying could have other ill effects). Yes, there are compromises just about everywhere you look.

I probably would, myself, because that's just how I am , but you really shouldn't have to. The one advantage that horizontally-oriented center speakers have with respect to sound quality is that they can be placed above or below ear level without worrying about tilting them to preserve sound quality. Of course, their main disadvantage is that their sound quality is inferior for everybody except the viewer in the middle. I recommend using a vertically-oriented center if possible, and that should definitely be tilted upward in your case, but if you decide to stick with a horizontally-oriented center, then you wouldn't need to tilt it.
Edited by Robert Cook - 3/12/13 at 6:21pm

I have my 170 SE mounted on VideoSecu One Pair of Side Clamping Speaker Mounting Bracket with Tilt and Swivel ...they are about 4 inches from the wall...enough room for space for the rear port..they can sound a tad boomy / boxy but room correction got it right.

I use them as surrounds so zero problems... Even for fronts you should be fine if you cross at 80.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X9O8SI/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I really like those mounts. Thanks for the advice.

I'm looking for new surrounds (on the smaller side to better fit my space). The HTM-200 is a great candidate because of it's size and because it's sealed.

How much of a sq difference is there between the HTM-200 and CBM-170? Would it make that much difference as a surround? (I could fit the 170's but the 200's would definitely be easier.)

I used my 200SEs as mains, surrounds and now rear surrounds. As mains they were too small for the room, but performed admirably under the circumstances. As surrounds they were fine, but when I wanted an all Ascend speaker setup in my living room, the 200SEs were moved to rear surrounds (they're closer to the wall there, too). SQ is fine, just not as much low end or volume.

Thank you for the advice. I assume the baffle step compensation in the x-over will not take kindly to this. I spoke with DaveF about this in a thread on the Ascend forums awhile ago, when I was moving my 340SE center from a horizontal to a vertical position. He figured it was better to turn the EXBAC off, as my Audyssey AutoEQ could probably do a decent job taming the boomy bass turning off EXBAC adds (as turning off EXBAC increases baffle step compensation) but might not know what to do with the horizontal corrections turning on the EXBAC circuit adds.
I have no intention of contacting Ascend about this... David might cry if he saw how I was sullying his beautiful speakers.
The good thing is, if this doesn't work, I can just put them back together... and will eventually anyway, this is just temporary.
I'm hoping the 80hz x-over will be high enough for the woofers in their new giant enclosure.

Those look a lot like the Pinpoint AM-40's (formally BTech BT-77s) which hold up my 340SE's nicely, even mounted on dryway with beefy wall anchors!
http://www.amazon.com/Pinpoint-AM-40B-Clamping-Bookshelf-Speaker/dp/B002UV03MW/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1363120946&sr=1-1&keywords=pinpoint+speaker+mount




I found quite a bit of difference, even crossed over at 80hz, between the Classic 200 and the 340SE. The high end is pretty much the same. I should really do an A/B test between my new 200SE's and the 340SEs. The thing I love about the 340SE's is their ability to get LOUD. They are quite efficient vs. the 200s, and can take a bunch of power.

This is something that can be turned on and off? Didn't see it mentioned in the owners manual on the Ascend website.

To Grill or not to Grill that is the question... I have the 170SE...anyone notice improvement with grills off? Mine have always been on but I am wanted to get a little more upper range "sparkle" without resorting to receiver tricks.

The best way to find out is to try it.

I get my 170se pair and 340 center tomarrow! Special thanks to cel4145 for recimending ascend acoustics to me.
Ill be sure to do a initial review and a review after 50hrs. Can't wait!!!