Energy Owners Thread - Page 342

Thanks for the info!

I've had a C-100/C-C100 setup for 3 weeks now, finally moved into my house and tomorrow is the first time I'll even get to hear them. I have to build shelves to hold these heavy 12lb bookshelf speakers so I never got to use the standard mounts I got and I've never seen 4 standoffs in the back of any of the HTIB setups I grabbed hehe. Appreciate the info.

Wondering if any of you might be of assistance... I have the following setup:

2 C-300 (Fronts)
2 C-100 (Surrounds)
1 C-C50 (Center)
No subwoofer
HK 254

The room is approximately 13x14. The surrounds (and fronts obvioulsy) are right about ear level. The center channel is in an entertainment center directly below the TV approximately 2 feet or so below ear level. The center channel is in a cabinet which has a breathable black mesh front (to hide it).

I ran the auto-calibration with the HK 254. The fronts are set to large and it correctly has the speaker distances. The issue I'm having is it auto-set the all the speakers at about -4db.

Unfortunately, at this level while I can clearly hear the fronts/surrounds, it is very difficult to hear the vocals from the center channel. In order to hear it clearly, I needed to set the center to +4-5 (while leaving the other speakers at -4). When I put my ear to the center, it sounds great (so don't think there is anything physically wrong with the speaker).

Now I know everyone says there is a big difference b/t the C-C100 and C-C50, but is the difference that great where I would have to set the C-C50 at such a higher level compared to the other speakers? Am I doing something wrong? Will playing the center at +4-5db harm it? Thanks for any help you can provide.

It is not uncommon to have to bump the center channel a few DB to hear it clearly. I started with a C-C50 first and moved up to a C-C100. The C-C100 keeps up much better with the fronts. However it all depends on source content. In fact just using CBS network feed for example. There can be a very large difference from show to show on how they apparently mix the different channels. I found on my system that I had to bump the C-C50 2-3 db for my ears. Is your center speaker angled upward? This can help a lot. Some people put something under the front bumpers to raise or aim it at the listening position. I got very "high tech". I used some old poker chips. I think about five or six under each front pad, wrapped with black electricians tape around the edge. Sounds ugly but it looks good and they blend right in so that you do not see them. If your center channel is behind a fabric screen you could use anything to aim them up to your ears. I think that 4-5 DB is OK as far as sound level for your center and would not think it should harm it.

If setting the Center channel +5db makes it even and consistant with the other speakers, not overpowering or louder, I don't see a problem. Most audessy auto-cal's like to reduce speaker levels, and most people end up manually reconfiguring a few things afterwards. I even had to bump up my LCR 2db higher than my L/R.

These things take some time to break in. Mine sounded horrible out of the box, thin midrange and poorly integrated and flabby low end. I very nearly packed them up and sent them back to Audio Advisor after a week. Broke them in for another week and then *presto* one day they sounded amazing!

Very impressive bass, though. To my ears they are even a bit bass heavy if I don't cross them over at 100Hz, though that may be due in part to their closeness (12") to the front wall.

Are you using the port plugs? If so, I would take them out (unless you are putting them in a bookshelf or right against the wall).

Good luck!

Others' suggestions are all stuff you should consider but, I just wanted to add something I read in the Energy owner's manual: be sure the center speaker is at least flush with what it's sitting on, or overhanging it at worse. If it is at all recessed on the shelf, apparently it greatly affects the sound of the speaker.

12lbs isn't heavy for a bookshelf speaker, its pretty standard. You've finally purchased some good speakers. I thought the C-100s were pretty small when I opened the box.

that's true for any speaker -- especially when it's in an enclosed space having it recessed at all from the front edge will cause additional resonance / reflection from all the hard surfaces around it.

Nirvana -- your problems are almost certainly caused by the physical position of the center channel and not any inherent deficiency in the C-C50. the above suggestion are good. This would be my plan of attack:

1. remove the grill (if you haven't already) from the C-C50, no need for two layers of mesh in front of the tweeter
2. use whatever you can to angle the center up towards ear level -- since it's behind a black mesh screen you won't see it anyway so it doesn't have to be fancy
3. scoot the center as far forward as is physically possible behind the screen

then, re-run auto setup and see how you like it. You may still have to bump up the center a few dB's to compensate (this is typical in many setups, especially with non-ideal center channel placement) but hopefully it won't be as dramatically off and you will improve dialogue clarity.

you can believe in break in if you want, but it is impossible for a speaker to go from "horrible" to "amazing" due to breaking it in. there is no switch that turns on in a speaker, the change will be subtle if anything. the problems the guy is describing cannot be related to simple break in issues.

Ditto my RC-LCR. I had to adjust it up 3db from where Audyssey set it.

I realize this is a novice question -- but I had been using a HTIB Onkyo HTR 330 in my basement theater, and was really pretty satisfied with the sound, which seemed well balanced. But the Onkyo had no HDMI input, required for my Samsung 1500's DTS-HD. So I bought a Yamaha HTR 6140 (aka RX-V463) which does, and an Energy Take 5.1 classic system to pair with the Yamaha, the Samsung 1500 and a Mitsubishi HC-1500 projector.

To my surprise, I'm a lot less satisfied than I was with my old Onkyo setup. My chief complaint is that the dialog now seems too "faraway" and hard to pick out from the rest of the audio. That leads me to wonder if the Take 5.1 classic system, especially its center channel, is going to be adequate for my room. My basement theater is 10 feet wide by 21 feet long, with 7 foot, 3 inch ceilings. My theater chairs are about 16 feet back from the 106 inch screen, and the center, left and right speakers sit about a foot in front of the screen, or 15 feet from the listening area, with the surrounds to the left and right just above ear level -- same place I had all the Onkyos. (Things are a bit more complicated, as there is a hallway that adjoins the theater at a right angle, which you could say makes it four or five feet longer, though a room-divider helps separate the hall.)

I'm disappointed that the more expensive Yamaha/Energy system feels wimpier, at least with respect to its center channel and dialog, than the Onkyo. Should I consider connecting the Yamaha to the Onkyo speakers, and just use the Energy's active subwoofer (the Onkyo's subwoofer is passive and won't work with the Yamaha). Or, should I think about replacing the Energy Take 5.1's center speaker with something larger in the Energy line? Or is there some other solution for my dialog dilemma?

15ft away in a 21ft long room is a little far for the Take Classic. Since you still have the Onkyo speakers, I might try hooking the up with the Energy sub just to see how it sounds... but the Takes are really intended for smaller rooms (~1000-1500 cu. ft). You will not be able to get that big home theater sound in a room that size with an 8-inch sub and tiny satellites.

in a room that big, with a 106" screen, it deserves REAL full-sized speakers that can do it justice. You may want to consider stepping up to a C-Series setup which would be more appropriate for the room/size.

are the Onkyo speakers physically larger?

The sensitivity of the C-300s is 89db while the C-C50 is only 86db. So you'd probably have to turn up the levels for the center just to get them even with the C-300 from the start. Add to the fact the center is recessed in a cabinet and I could see why you'd have to turn it up more.

Nothing wrong with boosting the level to get the volume you want.

Thanks for the replies.

bama29: The center channel is not angled upward. It is merely laying on the upper shelf of the entertainment center. Consequently, the sound is likely angled at me knees when in a listening position. Great idea on angling the speaker. The WAF would likely be an issue, but like you said, it can't be seen behind the mesh.

knight_40k and bama29: Good to hear that I'm not the only one that has had to bump the db on a specific speaker. Glad to hear this won't hurt the speaker either.

poshfrosh: The center channel has been in a recessed position on the shelf (probably 5-6 inches from the edge). I was unaware this could effect the sound. Good catch. I'll try positioning it at the lip of the shelf and angling upward and see if that helps.

On a side note, anyone have a similar setup to me? If so, are you using a subwoofer? I'm going to add one soon and was wondering which meshes well and wouldn't overpower my speakers. Currently looking at PA-120 on low range to SVS PB-10NSD on upper range. Thanks again!

Well I just found out that I will not be able to refuse the package because the sub, center, and surrounds are all in one package...Will just have to send it back on my own...I have been thinking and I might just go with the prestige S10 sub, everyone here seems to agree this will be the better sub for my system...I never did tell the wife the size of the sub, I just thought the small size would make her happy and the guy at energy told me that sub(ESWM8) packs a good punch...So to all the experts I guess you will agree that I am doing the right thing? The good news is vanns at least has this in stock, and still is cheaper than what I paid for the ESWM8...

I was looking at the GLS banana plugs the locking type that has been revised,where they the ones that you where talking about batpig? Can you let me know what you think of them..the revised ones.

Thank You,
ciccio

The Onkyo speakers are physically larger, especially the center speaker (two 3-1/8" cone woofers and one 3/4" ceramic tweeter). Since I bought the Take Classic pretty cheap (on Circuit City's last day or two in business) it didn't cost much more than I'd have paid for a subwoofer, anyway. On the other hand, it looks like Energy sells a variety of center channel speakers. If the dialog/center channel is my problem, would just upgrading that center speaker be a good investment?

it could be, but at the prices they are going for you may as well have a matching "front end". with a room that long, 7.1 is totally viable and you could simply shift the two front Takes to the rear and complete the setup. The entire front "soundstage" would improve dramatically with larger speakers at L/R/C.

Check out Audio Advisor's stock on C-Series:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=234

You can get a pair of C-50 bookshelves + a C-C50 center for well under $200 shipped.

Also WWStereo, if shipping works out too much from AA, has C-50's + C-C50 for $180 shipped.

The larger C-100 / C-C100 (Vann's and buy.com) setup would still only be around $225 shipped.

[

This begs a question with my C-C50 Center which just came in on Thursday. I opted for a wall mount under my LCD, but what I used is two decorative "L" type shelf mounts with the speaker directly on them + the rubber insulators. So I didn't use an actual piece of wood shelving to put the speaker on. Is this Kosher, or should make a 14" x 9" shelf and put the speaker directly on that instead of the brackets? Anyone try it both ways and opted for one or the other due to SQ?

sound kosher. in fact it may be superior because the speaker will be out in the open with room to "breathe", no shelf below it to reflect sound off...

I honestly haven't seen or used the locking ones, but some people like them. I have to imagine they fit the same though, I can't imagine GLS sourcing a different connector part for the new plugs, it's probably just the barrel that's been redesigned.

banana plugs are more of a convenience than a necessity. the are most important at the receiver end, where the tightly spaced binding posts on the back of most multichannel receivers make it a daunting task to squeeze your fingers and thread bare wire in there. on the speaker side, it's more about aesthetics.

I would currently recommend the monoprice plugs instead, they are very solidly built and give a tight fit:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

the only downside to the monoprice plugs is that they are unshielded (no rubber insulation), so I would not use them on the speaker side without adding some insulation (like heat shrink tubing). if the unshielded plugs are accidentally yanked out of a speaker and the gold ends touch, you can fry the amp. on the receiver side it's not an issue, if they get yanked out they won't be connected to the amp so no worries....

if you don't care about the aesthetics and won't be connecting/disconnecting the speakers very often, may as well just stick to bare wire on the speaker side...

Most people here upgrade all the front speakers (L/C/R) when doing that.

That's what I did. I got the C100's for the front right and left channels and the C-C100 as the center. All this cost about the same as the Energy Take 5.0 Classic (without the sub) and now I have 7.1

You could also get the C300's (larger tower speakers, more money, bigger sound) or C50's (smaller bookshelf speakers if you don't have the space). The consensus seems to be if you stick to the C-series it will sound well with the Take 5 Classic sats.

FWIW, I did run the Take 5 Classic with just the center channel upgraded and it did sound great. One larger speaker can overpower smaller ones, but if one speaker were going to overpower others, the center channel is probably the best. I've read that 40% of sound in home theater comes from the Center channel anyway and the clarity of dialog with a better center is quite noticeable.

Just my 2 cents worth. Op! Looks like batpig beat me to the punch...

Thank you very much batpig....you agree with the prestige s10 sub for me?

I guess I beat you, but the fact that you have actual direct experience with this transition (Take Classic + upgraded C-Series front end) is probably more useful than my second hand regurgitated info

I know there's been various discussion about audio theory as to ideal placement/height of various speakers but I was wondering if there were any recommendations towards speaker stands.

I just purchased the following setup:
4x C100s
1x C-C100
1x Mirage Prestige S10

I already have a Bello AVS-2752HG TV/AV stand which is 21.5 inches tall


I have a sectional couch which as dimensions of dimensions of 35" height and an ottoman that will sit in front of the couch (directly between the listening position and the TV/AV stand) that is 19" height.

I was planning on placing all 4 speakers on speaker stands but run into the following issues:

1. I have a dog, a large dog. Dog is very gentle but with a tail that could club a man to death. The speakers are in shipment but will take 1-2 weeks to arrive. I have never owned bookshelf speakers and don't know if it is possible to mount/bolt the speakers to the stand. If so, are there any stand recommendations to pair with the C100s? If not, I've read on the forums everything from Blu-Tack, double-sided tape, etc. What would you guys recommend?

2. Stand height? I was thinking with going with 24" stands in the front to match the height of the center speaker as close as possible, but if I do this, I would have to go with at least 29" stands in the rear to overcome the height of the couch. Is it better that I use two different stand heights or would more advantageous to buy 4 stands of the same height and slightly angle the C-C100 up?

3. I was thinking about the Lovan Affiniti 29" Speaker Stands, Matte Black (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg.../-/B000OOS2DY/), any pros, cons, better options?

yes, especially since you never told your wife about the M8!

the Prestige S10 is really good looking, your wife will be impressed (my wife is very happy with the S8, which is like hell freezing over). it's definitely more appropriate for the size of the room.

what you need to do is show her some pictures of the eD subs (like this one) and say you were considering one of those mammoth black boxes, and all those nasty guys on the internet were trying to tell you not to be a girly man and get a REAL sub, but you decided to stand up and do your wife a favor and get a small sub instead. Then, when the S10 shows up, she will think it is the SMALL sub (which it is, really) and will thank you for it!

FOOLPROOF!! My plan cannot fail!

But second hand regurgitated info is your specialty!

And you have so much of it!

Your regurgitated info is what lead me to my current setup, and I love it!

I'm so glad I'm getting to the point where I can actually help and answer some of these questions that repeat every several pages around here. That way I can give back a little for all the help you all have given me (especially back when I was one of those posters asking a question that was answered a few pages back ). If any of you senior members see me doing more harm than good, let me know.

And also, yes, your point is valid that I have direct experience with this specific setup/upgrade, so anyone feel free to ask and I can give my impressions/advice, but remember I am no audiophile. I had Bose before, so even these entry level c100's sound so fantastic, I can barely believe it.

batpig, what kind of job do you have that affords you all the time to post in here all day?

But did he tell you it packed a better punch than the s8 or s10? I bet he didn't.

This looks like its going to be a very nice system for you. I'd love to see your review once everything is connected and broken in.

If you want to be save a little money over the Lovan stands I'd get the Sanus BF-24 for the front and BF-31 for the rears. The extra 2 inches might benefit you more for the surrounds. I use Velcro strips or squares on the top plate and bottom of the speaker to hold it it place. Others use Blu Tack.

24" stand http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

36" stand http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

They're available on amazon.com too for about the same price.

I will review it and tell you what I think....but it will be awhile and I am sure I will need some help with the set up, I think I will break the system in some before I set up MCACC.
Thanks for the link to that sub picture I will wait to see her reaction to the S10 before I show her that monster...I will give the banana plugs from monoprice a shot, I bought from them before and I was happy..
Thank you all again for all your help and support..Have a great week!!!!!

ciccio

Wow, I had no idea this was such a sensitive topic! Kind of hostile, don't you think? What are you so sore about?

I have always found Energy speakers sound better after breaking them in. My RC-10s certainly did. I hated them for two weeks. Love them now.

Stereophile breaks in their speakers routinely before reviewing them. Here's an excerpt from one of their reviews: "Unlike with many loudspeakers, however, breaking in the 140 for a long time did not result in a small difference between good sound and better. It was more like the difference between god-awful and astonishingly good. Out of the box, I found the 140 veiled, murky, and pretty hard to listen to. After about 100 hours of playing music, they might have actually sounded worse—fortunately, when it comes to pain, humans have short memories. But after the 140s had played 250 hours' worth of full-range, dynamically challenging music, I walked into the house after a day spent elsewhere and listened in amazement. I heard music—and I saw that it was good."

Here's one from UltimateAV: "When I came back to the RC-LCR for this report after breaking it in further, most of that early bloat had vanished. It was one of the most significant transformations I have ever heard in a speaker's sound following break-in."

A review of the Energy Connoisseur C5 in AV Revolution: "I let these speakers break in for over two weeks before doing any serious listening...."

Hell, according to at least two sources, even Energy recommends breaking in their speakers: “Energy recommends 100 hours of break-in before the speakers are at their best” (Soundstage) and "Energy recommends at least 100 hours (!) of break-in time for the Reference Connoisseurs" (Ultimate AV).

So whether you break your speakers in or not, my post was legitimate and reflects the real experience of myself and many others. My intention was not to start a controversy but to encourage another forum member.