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Energy Owners Thread - Page 1462

post #43831 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

$350?? I paid $200 shipping last year for my fv15hp to Canada. Are you including the price they charge to declare the sub across the border, because you can do that yourself for free.

I'm just quoting what Rhytmik's web site tells me. I add a FV15HP to the cart, click "add shipping", select Canada, and *bam*, $355. This is not counting any additional custom fees, nor is it counting GST and provincial taxes that will apply. I guess $200 is a good price to have the FV15-HP delivered to Canada since having a PC12-Plus delivered from Ontario to Quebec costs $60 apiece with Sonicboomaudio.

Since SBA only charges the 5% GST to Quebec's residents, and since I was a return customer (5% rebate), even knowing the FV15-HP probably has the Plus beaten by a comfortable margin, I did go with the Plus (duals in fact). It seems that in Canada, unless you're willing to go rather high end with Funk Audio, SVS still has the lead in bang for the buck because of their distribution deal with SBA. Rhytmik, Epik, etc. are much more difficult or expensive to import. Not sure how PowerSound Audio charges for shipping their subs to Canada though.

Whereas I was willing to go with Kinek and Vann's free shipping up to the border for my RC-10s and RC-LCR last year, doing the same with a 100 lbs+ sub is another proposition entirely. You need a vehicle that can accomodate such a large piece of equipment, and also a helper to load and unload it. It can hardly be a detour tacked onto a family trip. Warranty is another issue.
post #43832 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

There is 0.0% of benefit by bi amping with the same avr receiver.

Wow, people here are really anti bi-amping. I found this reply on bi-amping from Dave F, on the Ascend forum.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?3995-Bi-amping-340-s&p=32217#post32217

Seems there is marginal benefit, "but there can be a noticeable improvement in dynamics due to the increased headroom and possibility of a higher damping factor". Is this benefit negated if I'm running it all on the same AVR? Is it worse to have my RC-70s in bi-amp instead of using the jumpers?

Thanks everyone!
post #43833 of 51515
Thats really unfortunate that they raised the shipping prices so drastically. I ended up paying 200 shipping and obviously sales tax but no other fees so between me and a US costumer, it was only 100 difference at the time. Even US shipping went up so I paid only ~70 difference.
post #43834 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincycle79 View Post

Seems there is marginal benefit, "but there can be a noticeable improvement in dynamics due to the increased headroom and possibility of a higher damping factor". Is this benefit negated if I'm running it all on the same AVR? Is it worse to have my RC-70s in bi-amp instead of using the jumpers?

I believe the problem is, if you "bi-amp" using the same AVR (so that you really "bi-wire", not "bi-amp"), the power source is in fact the same. AVRs will load-balance their internal amps; for example, a 5.1 AVR rated at 80 W/ch typically don't have a 400W power supply. Thus you don't gain headroom since you don't have more power available as all is coming from the same power supply. You're probably not getting worse sound though; the only disadvantage is that you're using amplified outputs that could be put to use to drive other speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

Thats really unfortunate that they raised the shipping prices so drastically. I ended up paying 200 shipping and obviously sales tax but no other fees so between me and a US costumer, it was only 100 difference at the time. Even US shipping went up so I paid only ~70 difference.

I think you got a good deal as the FV15-HP is really competition for the Ultra and should be compared with SVS Ultra prices. What are your thoughts about the FV15-HP? I've only read very nice things about it. Even at reduced shipping rates it would have been above my budget to get two of them. That being said, getting the two Pluses was also above my budget biggrin.gif but slightly less so.
post #43835 of 51515
The Veritas V5.2s were pretty bright upon my first impressions but after putting ~20 hours into it my ears have adjusted and warmed up to the sound. After 3 years with the RC series it was a radical change since the tweeters are polar opposites. I plan on setting the RCs up again and doing a quick A/B, its crazy how quickly you can forget acoustic signature of speakers. I remember them having better bass response than the Vs even though they have the same woofer (I think).
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

What are your thoughts about the FV15-HP?.

Well, to this day I haven't had a proper setup and positioning of the unit since I am limited in where I can put it atm. There seems to be a massive lull in my room dampening the subs effectiveness. Hopefully its temporary and I can move it soon.

With that in mind, I like it wink.gif. It sure hits hard when asked and lacks any form of boominess. I wish it sounded better at lower listening volumes but that might be cured with better room treatment/positioning. I think going with two subs is the better plan within your budget though and something I wish I properly considered in retrospect.
post #43836 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I believe the problem is, if you "bi-amp" using the same AVR (so that you really "bi-wire", not "bi-amp"), the power source is in fact the same. AVRs will load-balance their internal amps; for example, a 5.1 AVR rated at 80 W/ch typically don't have a 400W power supply. Thus you don't gain headroom since you don't have more power available as all is coming from the same power supply. You're probably not getting worse sound though; the only disadvantage is that you're using amplified outputs that could be put to use to drive other speakers.

This makes sense - thanks for your explanation! I'll probably leave them "bi-amped" for now as I'm not running a zone 2 anyway but good to know for future reference!




spin
post #43837 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincycle79 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

There is 0.0% of benefit by bi amping with the same avr receiver.

Wow, people here are really anti bi-amping. I found this reply on bi-amping from Dave F, on the Ascend forum.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?3995-Bi-amping-340-s&p=32217#post32217

Seems there is marginal benefit, "but there can be a noticeable improvement in dynamics due to the increased headroom and possibility of a higher damping factor". Is this benefit negated if I'm running it all on the same AVR? Is it worse to have my RC-70s in bi-amp instead of using the jumpers?

Thanks everyone!


Im not a anti bi amp, we are talking here about avr receivers ,not dedicated amps.
post #43838 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

Well, to this day I haven't had a proper setup and positioning of the unit since I am limited in where I can put it atm. There seems to be a massive lull in my room dampening the subs effectiveness. Hopefully its temporary and I can move it soon.

With that in mind, I like it wink.gif. It sure hits hard when asked and lacks any form of boominess. I wish it sounded better at lower listening volumes but that might be cured with better room treatment/positioning. I think going with two subs is the better plan within your budget though and something I wish I properly considered in retrospect.

I think I know the feeling. My first sub upgrade, from the ESW-C8 to the SVS SB12-NSD, was an eye-opener / game changer. It was a very expensive upgrade but it opened up a new world. Then even considering the resale value of the SB12, buying the dual Pluses was the single most expensive purchase in my HT setup. It simply could not, however, provide as much change as the C8-to-SB12 upgrade. But it turned out that setting up the first sub actually sounded worse than the SB12 (and the second one was DOA to boot). It took a few weeks of setup and tweaking (the second working sub helped a lot) before I managed to get satisfactory results.

Of *course*, the dual Plus wipe the floor with the SB12 in terms of output and also extension. However, most of those advantages can only be heard at higher volumes. At casual listening levels, it's much harder to perceive lower frequencies and the deep extension, and well, the ability to shake the room is moot if you don't turn up the volume, so they do not provide much over a single SB12. The duals do in fact improve bass uniformity across the room, which is a nice to have.

If you want to get better results, you have the first step right: position is incredibly important. Room treatment though will not do much below 50 Hz. I found that having sub EQing capabilities (be it in the form of Audyssey or as in my case using the Behringer DSP1124p aka BFD) helped a lot in taming peaks. Using REW was also very beneficial to see what was wrong. Another tip: it's okay to run the sub a bit hot biggrin.gif Most AVR calibration routines set the sub volume a bit low. In my case I also added a very low frequency boost (+6 dB at 20-30 Hz) that helps a bit feeling the bass at lower volume (and shaking the floor at higher volumes). At low volumes, bass is less noticeable; in fact "midnight mode" specifically boost the bass so that it's more present even though the overall volume is low.
post #43839 of 51515
Good advice neutro, thanks! I actually have some time now (...laid off recently frown.gif) so I will try and really delve deep into proper calibration. Should be fun.
post #43840 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

The Veritas V5.2s were pretty bright upon my first impressions but after putting ~20 hours into it my ears have adjusted and warmed up to the sound. After 3 years with the RC series it was a radical change since the tweeters are polar opposites. I plan on setting the RCs up again and doing a quick A/B, its crazy how quickly you can forget acoustic signature of speakers. I remember them having better bass response than the Vs even though they have the same woofer (I think).
I know loservatore has a lot of experience with the Veritas vs RCs, but I am also interested in your opinion. When I switched from the CF series to the RC series I knew I made the right choice, but I do miss a few things from the CF series. For instance in my old house when I would go in another room, sometimes the sound was so natural that I thought someone was talking to me when a movie was on from the other room. It was freaky and very "real life". I may not be explaining that good, but I never experienced that with the RCs.

I always wanted the Veritas because they are suppose to be between the the RC and old Veritas, but I always imagined them between the CF and RCs, plus they are so beautiful, especially the rosenut/wood whatever.
post #43841 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I believe the problem is, if you "bi-amp" using the same AVR (so that you really "bi-wire", not "bi-amp"), the power source is in fact the same. AVRs will load-balance their internal amps; for example, a 5.1 AVR rated at 80 W/ch typically don't have a 400W power supply. Thus you don't gain headroom since you don't have more power available as all is coming from the same power supply. You're probably not getting worse sound though; the only disadvantage is that you're using amplified outputs that could be put to use to drive other speakers.
I think you got a good deal as the FV15-HP is really competition for the Ultra and should be compared with SVS Ultra prices. What are your thoughts about the FV15-HP? I've only read very nice things about it. Even at reduced shipping rates it would have been above my budget to get two of them. That being said, getting the two Pluses was also above my budget biggrin.gif but slightly less so.

I would say Neutro got it right about receiver Bi amping. If you want to Bi Amp do it the proper way with two amps and active xovers and such. In a way you kind of are bi amping by using bass management biggrin.gif
post #43842 of 51515
Wanting to get some opinions. I won a pair of Veritas V2.3 speakers off the bay yesterday. Paid $661 including shipping. I've been looking for a pair of V2.2i's to just pull out into the room for 2 channel but for the price I figured I might just go ahead and swap these for my RC-70's. Any thoughts on whether that was a fair price and what the chances are that I will eventually have problems with the woofers?
post #43843 of 51515
Lets see, you got some MSRP $2800/pr Veritas 2.3 for $661 shipped. They are much better speakers than the RC-70 which you can't even get for $661/pr used.

I'd say you got a great deal. Congrats! I have no idea if you will have problems with the woofers, maybe someone else can chime in.

post #43844 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I'd say you got a great deal. Congrats! I have no idea if you will have problems with the woofers, maybe someone else can chime in.

I've been wondering if putting a bead of high quality adhesive around the edge where the phase plug/heat sink delaminates from the magnet would help? It would have to be some really strong stuff and heat resistant. Any opinions in whether that would work or not?
post #43845 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Lets see, you got some MSRP $2800/pr Veritas 2.3 for $661 shipped. They are much better speakers than the RC-70 which you can't even get for $661/pr used.
Much better how? Do they produce much better sound? Have you listened to them side by side for comparison?
post #43846 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

Good advice neutro, thanks! I actually have some time now (...laid off recently frown.gif) so I will try and really delve deep into proper calibration. Should be fun.

I'm really sorry to read that. I hope you'll be able to make the most out of it and be able to find some lucrative opportunities soon. In the mean time, if your situation is good enough to keep all your A/V gear, by all means this is a superb opportunity to tweak your setup but also enjoy it smile.gif
post #43847 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2tvsonecup View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Lets see, you got some MSRP $2800/pr Veritas 2.3 for $661 shipped. They are much better speakers than the RC-70 which you can't even get for $661/pr used.
Much better how? Do they produce much better sound? Have you listened to them side by side for comparison?

I haven't heard this specific comparison (V2.3 vs. RC-70) but I have heard Veritas (V2.1) vs. RC-10 and it is really no contest. There is also plenty of head-to-head commentary in the history of this thread.

The Veritas is simply a much higher end product. Note that this refers to the OLD Veritas models, not the current Veritas line which is a Klipsch design based on the RC's. These 2nd gen Veritas (V2.1, V2.2, V2.3, etc) were phenomenal audiophile caliber speakers, they are simply on another level from the RC's. They provide a level of transparency, detail, soundstage, and overall refinement that the RC's cannot match.
post #43848 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fears4Ears View Post

Wanting to get some opinions. I won a pair of Veritas V2.3 speakers off the bay yesterday. Paid $661 including shipping. I've been looking for a pair of V2.2i's to just pull out into the room for 2 channel but for the price I figured I might just go ahead and swap these for my RC-70's. Any thoughts on whether that was a fair price and what the chances are that I will eventually have problems with the woofers?

Congrats!!! That is a GREAT deal! I can't wait to hear what you think about them in comparison to your RC-70's.

As an FYI, I still have a spare woofer from a non "i" tower that I bought as a backup when I had the V2.1's. I have to check the model number but it was pulled from either a V2.3 or a V2.4 originally (although they should be identical, I did test it in my V2.1 and it worked great). If you are interested in it as a backup just in case, shoot me a PM.
post #43849 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fears4Ears View Post

Wanting to get some opinions. I won a pair of Veritas V2.3 speakers off the bay yesterday. Paid $661 including shipping. I've been looking for a pair of V2.2i's to just pull out into the room for 2 channel but for the price I figured I might just go ahead and swap these for my RC-70's. Any thoughts on whether that was a fair price and what the chances are that I will eventually have problems with the woofers?

You won these off of Ebay? Man!.....How did I miss that listing?
post #43850 of 51515
I've been sick so I've spent a lot of time on my laptop checking stuff out. I also nabbed a V2.0 CM Ceiling Mount speaker a coupla weeks ago for $105. I've been researching how to build something to combine stereo-to-mono to make the world's most bitchin' boom box with a little tube amp, in case I can never find it's mate. Now I'm wondering if I might be able to build a box for it and try it as a center. The only specs I've seen are for the 6" using 1.5 cubic inches but I guess I could just build a coupla trials to see if it would work. Some people were unhappy with the V2.0 center not matching the towers anyway so I just might be satisfied with the outcome.

FREQUENCY RESPONSE 42Hz – 20kHz +/- 3dB
Tweeter Single 1" Aluminum dome
Midrange Dual 1.5" Cone Midranges 500Hz – 10kHz
Woofer Single 8"
Crossover Point 2kHz
BOUNDARY COMPENSATION Yes – Middle, Corner
SOUNDFIELD MANAGEMENT Switchable: Bipole, Dipole
HIGH CUT 2dB@ 2.0kHz ~ 20kHz
ROOM EFFICIENCY 90dB
IMPEDANCE 8 0hms Nominal 4 0hms Minimum
POWER HANDLING 150 Watts Maximum
RECOMMENDED AMP. POWER 30 –150 Watts
INPUTS Spring Loaded Gold Plated

DIMENSIONS 8 7/8" x 8 7/8" x 5 7/8"
WEIGHT 5.75 lbs
HOLE CUTOUT 9 1/2"

The swiveling tweeter and the two mid range can be adjusted to aim at the listening position. You can also switch between bipole or dipole. It also has a High-Cut switch.

"Who said that ceiling speakers can't produce the best of sound was definitely wrong: indeed, they do not benefit from the large cabinet usually thought of when speaking of loudspeakers but you see, technology is on the move and ideas have never ceased of emerging from the engineers' minds. Finally, the acoustic tech has managed to compensate for the absence of a large resonating box behind the actual speaker and went even further: creating in-ceiling Hi-Fi units. The Energy Veritas V2.0CM in-ceiling unit is the living proof that such sound can be actually achieved".
Edited by Fears4Ears - 2/1/13 at 3:03pm
post #43851 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I have bi-amped my speakers with my Denon AVR before just because my brother gave me his old solid core copper bi-amp speaker cables. Figured why not. Couldn't tell any difference. Not worth the cost of the copper to run the extra sets of speaker wire. LOL

When I "bi-amp" my RC-50's with my Pioneer SC-37 I can definitely tell a difference. So much so that a friend of mine asked what I had done different with the setup when I had switched it a few days earlier. Maybe the ICE amps produce enough true watts to make a difference. I realize though that it is not a true "bi-amping" but it does sound better to my (and my friend's) ears.
post #43852 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwilberg266 View Post

When I "bi-amp" my RC-50's with my Pioneer SC-37 I can definitely tell a difference. So much so that a friend of mine asked what I had done different with the setup when I had switched it a few days earlier. Maybe the ICE amps produce enough true watts to make a difference. I realize though that it is not a true "bi-amping" but it does sound better to my (and my friend's) ears.

Scientific evidence shows that we easily mislead ourselves to believe there is a difference in situations like this and that our audio memory is extremely unreliable. That's why ABX testing is the default method for making determinations like this for audio comparisons. So no doubt you may think it. But that doesn't mean it's there. Audio science would suggest otherwise.
post #43853 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Congrats!!! That is a GREAT deal! I can't wait to hear what you think about them in comparison to your RC-70's.

As an FYI, I still have a spare woofer from a non "i" tower that I bought as a backup when I had the V2.1's. I have to check the model number but it was pulled from either a V2.3 or a V2.4 originally (although they should be identical, I did test it in my V2.1 and it worked great). If you are interested in it as a backup just in case, shoot me a PM.
Why did you get rid of your Veritas?
post #43854 of 51515
Just picked up the Take Classic 5.1 set (100W/channel). I was also looking for a receiver to pair with th set. Looking at the Harmon AVR 1565 but am hugely concerned about it being only 70W/channel. Is this an issue?

http://www.harmankardon.com/EN-CA/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=AVR%201565
post #43855 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by forzanerazzurri View Post

Just picked up the Take Classic 5.1 set (100W/channel). I was also looking for a receiver to pair with th set. Looking at the Harmon AVR 1565 but am hugely concerned about it being only 70W/channel. Is this an issue?

http://www.harmankardon.com/EN-CA/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=AVR%201565
Not at all it's fine
post #43856 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2tvsonecup View Post

Much better how? Do they produce much better sound? Have you listened to them side by side for comparison?
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I haven't heard this specific comparison (V2.3 vs. RC-70) but I have heard Veritas (V2.1) vs. RC-10 and it is really no contest. There is also plenty of head-to-head commentary in the history of this thread.

The Veritas is simply a much higher end product. Note that this refers to the OLD Veritas models, not the current Veritas line which is a Klipsch design based on the RC's. These 2nd gen Veritas (V2.1, V2.2, V2.3, etc) were phenomenal audiophile caliber speakers, they are simply on another level from the RC's. They provide a level of transparency, detail, soundstage, and overall refinement that the RC's cannot match.


That really is quite a STELLAR deal, indeed! I paid more for my 2.2i bookshelf speakers than you did for those beautiful v2.3 towers!

As far as the RC-70's against the 2.x series, I don't have any of the more recent "RC" line, but have a good variety of Energy's older lineup -- the even "C" models (C-6, flagship C-8), Energy's flagship Audissey model APS 5+2, as well as a set of their 'e' series (2.1e, and flagship 5.1e). From what I have read, the RC-70 is above these in the sound they produce (especially the 'smooth' tweeter). If anyone has been on this thread in the last few years, you'll likely see my posts of seeking out the APS 5+2's...for literally 8 years -- I drove from So Cal to San Francisco to purchase them -- they were the speakers I always wanted, and they are extremely hard to find. For all purposes, I was DONE with buying speakers.
A few months ago, a number of older veritas speakers went on sale on craigslist in my area, and I went to audition a pair of 2.2i's. I really was just curious how they would sound.
I ended up buying them. I had intended to use them only for 2ch music, but they sounded so much better, that in the next few days I'm hoping to purchase & round out a full set of the older veritas speakers.
Just as a note, I've used them only for music thus far.

The sound difference is, honestly, hard to describe. I love my Audissey and C-series speakers, and feel like the 'e' series is the oft-forgotten dark-horse of the Energy line...amazing sound.
But, there were things in each of them that I didn't like as much as the other:
in the Audissey's bipolar design, I loved the huge soundstage, but missed some of the 'exact placing' within the soundstage as a result.
The C-8's don't have as 'wide' of a soundstage, but the placement and clarity is wonderful.
The 5.1e's are somewhere in the middle of the two...great all-arounds.
The older Veritas', at least from my experience, take all of the above-qualities, and deliver them together...but all actually at a higher quality, too. The soundstage is gigantic, to the point where I'm blown away that it's every bit as large (if not a bit larger) than the bipolar Audissey speakers. They have the "placement" characteristics of the C-8's, but also extremely smooth (as in, they don't approach hurting my ears, even at extremely high volumes).
The tweeter and midrange is what's remarkably impressive.
My 2.2i's are bookshelves (albeit large ones), so the bass isn't as deep as the flagship-sized APS 5+2's, C-8's, or 5.1e's...but the bass is 'tighter'. I'd imagine that the 2.3 or 2.4's would be absolutely stellar.
I absolutely love my other Energy speakers, and would heartily recommend any of them to others in a second (especially at used-market prices), but the Veritas line was rightly placed as their highest-end line.

All of the above being said, I could never afford any speakers 'new' -- whether it be the RC-70's, APS 5+2's, C-8's, or 5.1e's...or especially the older Veritas. In fact, I never even looked for them, because I assumed I'd never be able to afford them, even used. The great part about the older Veritas', though, is that you actually can find them on the used market at semi-affordable price points (definitely cheaper than new RC-70's)...so you can have an AMAZING amount of quality for a "relatively" low price.
I feel like I'm insane in how much I've spent on speakers, as I tend to be pretty frugal with money overall -- but the returns have been extremely enjoyable, as I really enjoy the equipment I have.

Hope the above is somewhat helpful. It's a shame it's so hard to 'describe' speaker sounds...since everything really needs to be heard. I'd heartily recommend people look for some of the older Veritas in their area before dropping huge amounts of money on new speakers -- the price/performance ratio is stellar...and 'used' doesn't mean 'worse'. wink.gifwink.gif
Edited by johnb4467 - 2/2/13 at 12:32am
post #43857 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

Why did you get rid of your Veritas?

I'm sure you'll get the 'definitive' answer from him, but I believe it was for aesthetics / furniture-matching.
post #43858 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Scientific evidence shows that we easily mislead ourselves to believe there is a difference in situations like this and that our audio memory is extremely unreliable. That's why ABX testing is the default method for making determinations like this for audio comparisons. So no doubt you may think it. But that doesn't mean it's there. Audio science would suggest otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwilberg266 View Post

When I "bi-amp" my RC-50's with my Pioneer SC-37 I can definitely tell a difference. So much so that a friend of mine asked what I had done different with the setup when I had switched it a few days earlier. Maybe the ICE amps produce enough true watts to make a difference. I realize though that it is not a true "bi-amping" but it does sound better to my (and my friend's) ears.

The above being [most likely correctly] stated...if they sound better to you (and your friend!) -- by all-means, keep them setup that way!!! There definitely comes a point at which the 'bump' in quality we get from one speaker to the next is a case of diminishing returns, and I bet that in some cases if we were blindfold-tested as to our sound preferences, we wouldn't always choose what we would by name / model / science. It really is in the perception at times, and sound is definitely relative and arguable. Above all, enjoy. smile.gif
post #43859 of 51515
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbdan View Post

Not at all it's fine

Thanks for the reply. Any elaboration on this?
post #43860 of 51515
Harman Kardon tends to be a bit more realistic in their power claims than most other consumer-level AVR's. You really will be fine.
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