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Energy Owners Thread - Page 1506

post #45151 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Then can you explain this to me I was reading and researching and I found a topic that said :

Claimed wattage VS REAL power.

honestly you are not giving me a concrete answer by saying volume dials or not level matching .

why the midrange driver sounded more cleaner and louder .


I know you are a clear fan of denon as I do too,this is my first marantz audition and I was really impressed how clean and loud was the midranges tones ,Im not wrong!!! it is clear to me that the midrange sounded better on the marantz.

The marantz played all the driver more evenly than the denon with not boost on the bass.IMO the marantz was all around evenly with the sound.

I don't think he was challenging the fact that each receiver sounded different, and in your system the Marantz had a more desirable midrange....only that it would really be hard to compare volume levels only on using the same setting on the volume dials....meaning if both volume controls were set at 11:00, the one that played louder had more power.

I have found that there is definite synergy between components and even the room. Lots of moving pieces. I think the key is finding a match and set up that pleases you. And honestly even the look and the feel of the gear makes a difference. I have listened to an Energy/Denon set up in a members home and it sounded very good. I also know the Marantz builds a very good, musical product.

It sounds to me like you found a good fit for you. I would enjoy it and continue learning more about the nuances that make this hobby as much fun as it is.
post #45152 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjl4004 View Post

Here's a really good deal for someone in the Mass area.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Energy-RC50-Reference-Connoisseur-Series-Tower-Loudspeaker-PAIR-BLACK-ASH-/281071247099?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item417126defb

If you mostly watch movies/TV or games, you don't really lose too much with the RC-50s vs the RC-70s.

I use it for a lot of music as well, and it performs very well. It may not equal the '70's, which are still in my lust wheelhouse, but I have no problem at all with it for two channel to multi channel music (SACD's, DVD-A's, bluray and HD-DVD concerts - Oppo BDP-83 and Toshiba HD-A35).
post #45153 of 51437
post #45154 of 51437
Saw it too but with 7 days left the price will get much higher.
post #45155 of 51437
No doubt.
post #45156 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartbmw3 View Post

only that it would really be hard to compare volume levels only on using the same setting on the volume dials....meaning if both volume controls were set at 11:00, the one that played louder had more power.

almost but not quite. That is actually a highly fallacious assumption that many people make, relating the volume dial to receiver power. They come from one receiver that has, say, 70 w/ch claimed power rating and go to a receiver with a 100 w/ch claimed power rating, and then wonder why they used to listen to the old receiver at -30 on the dial but on the new receiver they have to crank it up to -20 or something to get the same level of perceived loudness. "But I thought this new receiver was more powerful?" they always ask.

The problem is there are lots of confounding variables that make a controlled, meaningful comparison very difficult to achieve. Different receivers (especially uncalibrated) can have different volume designs in terms of how the position of the dial relates to the amp gain structure. Older receivers may have a linear pot volume control set such that 1/2 way on the dial is full gain for the amp, whereas a modern digital receiver will have a precise, logarithmic digital volume attennuator where 80-90% on the dial is full amp gain. Even two modern digital units (like the two in question) may have different designs, and as far as I can tell the receivers weren't calibrated either so we have no ability to relate SPL to the position of the volume dial.

I was really responding to this comment:
Quote:
I dont know much about the power ratings and watts maths but 90watts on denon and 50watts on marantz and the maratz played louder?I really want to know why?

You simply cannot make judgements about power in this type of uncontrolled experiment. As I am discussing above, just because one receiver "seems louder" than the other has NOTHING to do with power and everything to do with a lack of experimental controls -- thus my comment about lack of level matching and differences in volume control design. You just need to turn the other one up more, that doesn't mean it has less power.

Let's say one of these receivers puts out 90 w/ch and the other puts out 50 w/ch.... that's a difference of approximately 2dB in MAX headroom. So the only way you would know which one was more powerful would be by cranking each receiver to the point at which it starts to clip/distort, and checking the SPL with a meter, and then repeating the same experiment with the other receiver. And you would find the difference is less than 3dB in all likelihood... in other words, totally meaningless in a practical, real-world sense.

And that doesn't even get into the issue of perceived loudness vs. actual SPL. A cleaner amp will not sound as loud as an amp with more distortion.

Point being, there are just too many variables at play here. Power is not at all the issue here, both receivers have approximately the same amount of real-world power and will both start to run out of steam at approximately the same level (within 2-3dB of each other).

Any other perceived differences in the testing have NOTHING to do with amp power, but rather other factors... that was my point.
post #45157 of 51437
Yeah I bet it hits almost $400 before the action ends.
post #45158 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

I use it for a lot of music as well, and it performs very well. It may not equal the '70's, which are still in my lust wheelhouse, but I have no problem at all with it for two channel to multi channel music (SACD's, DVD-A's, bluray and HD-DVD concerts - Oppo BDP-83 and Toshiba HD-A35).

I'm not saying the 50s are bad for music; I hope my comment didn't come off that way. It was a huge upgrade for me when I went from RC-10s to RC-50s. I was happy with the 50s but came across a great deal (at the time) on a pair of RC-70s. The difference between the 50s and 70s was certainly not as dramatic and (as others have previously said) the biggest difference was a more defined/detailed mid range and a bit more bass. Those differences only really revealed themselves (to me) in 2 channel music listening and I could barely tell a difference between the 50s and 70s while listening to movies.
post #45159 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjl4004 View Post

I'm not saying the 50s are bad for music; I hope my comment didn't come off that way. It was a huge upgrade for me when I went from RC-10s to RC-50s. I was happy with the 50s but came across a great deal (at the time) on a pair of RC-70s. The difference between the 50s and 70s was certainly not as dramatic and (as others have previously said) the biggest difference was a more defined/detailed mid range and a bit more bass. Those differences only really revealed themselves (to me) in 2 channel music listening and I could barely tell a difference between the 50s and 70s while listening to movies.

Completely agree with the above as I went through the exact same progression from RC-10->RC-50->RC-70. No difference for movies and but definitely see an improvement for music between RC-50 and RC-70. Unless you are looking for an improvement in music, it is not worth an upgrade in my view from my experience.
post #45160 of 51437
I think what is being missed here is that you can't compare the relative power output of 2 amps by the position of the volume knob.

1/2 power on an amp might be 6/10 scale on one rcvr and 4/10 on another.

This is not to say the sound might not be different, But the power output would have to be measured full scale with an spl meter to judge total output.
post #45161 of 51437
I have a gloss black RC Mini center channel speaker in very good condition that I am planning on selling. Before I post it elsewhere, I thought I'd let people in the Energy thread know first. Please PM me if you're interested.
Edited by jjl4004 - 2/28/13 at 10:21am
post #45162 of 51437
Without getting into comparing receivers and their volume/wattage levels, I have a question in terms of how do you know at what level on your volume knob one is listening to reference volume?
Edited by enthusiast8 - 2/28/13 at 9:36am
post #45163 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by wader2k View Post

I think what is being missed here is that you can't compare the relative power output of 2 amps by the position of the volume knob.

1/2 power on an amp might be 6/10 scale on one rcvr and 4/10 on another.

This is not to say the sound might not be different, But the power output would have to be measured full scale with an spl meter to judge total output.

It wasn't missed, I specifically addressed it in my post(s).
post #45164 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by enthusiast8 View Post

Without getting into comparing receivers and their volume/wattage levels, I have a question in terms of how do you know at what level on your volume knob one is listening to reference volume?

Depends on the receiver and whether or not it is calibrated. On any receiver with Audyssey MultEQ + Dynamic EQ, after calibration the reference level is set precisely at 0 on the volume knob (assuming you are using the relative scale, i.e. where when you turn down the volume from 0 the volume reading is negative). If you are not using that scale (on Denons it is an option, not sure about other brands) you have to do some investigating. I know on current Denons that the absolute scale goes from 0-98, with 80 being reference (so on the relative scale it goes from -80 to +18, with 0 being reference).
post #45165 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Depends on the receiver and whether or not it is calibrated. On any receiver with Audyssey MultEQ + Dynamic EQ, after calibration the reference level is set precisely at 0 on the volume knob (assuming you are using the relative scale, i.e. where when you turn down the volume from 0 the volume reading is negative). If you are not using that scale (on Denons it is an option, not sure about other brands) you have to do some investigating. I know on current Denons that the absolute scale goes from 0-98, with 80 being reference (so on the relative scale it goes from -80 to +18, with 0 being reference).
After calibrating with Audyssey, I set the max volume level at 0, in order to protect the speakers from accidentally turning it louder. But I have had instances(with watchign tv) where I was at 0 and I would want to turn it up louder (not that iam hard of hearing or anything). What I mean to say is that on the Denon I noticed that I would have to up the volume more than what it reads on the screen, especially when Iam watching tv connected to the receiver using HDMI.
post #45166 of 51437
The thing is that non-film sources (especially cable TV and music) are NOT mixed to any defined reference, so "reference level" doesn't really apply. What I said above is really ONLY true for film sources. And if you are using some sort of compression scheme (e.g. Dynamic Volume, DRC) then it's even less applicable.
post #45167 of 51437
I have noticed this with movies too, but not at that level. I would be watching a movie (Ex: Tron) at 10 on volume level, but If I lowered the volume further, I would be losing some details and it would be clearly noticeable.
post #45168 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It wasn't missed, I specifically addressed it in my post(s).

Indeed you did!
post #45169 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by enthusiast8 View Post

I have noticed this with movies too, but not at that level. I would be watching a movie (Ex: Tron) at 10 on volume level, but If I lowered the volume further, I would be losing some details and it would be clearly noticeable.

That's to be expected. As the volume drops you lose the perception of bass and fine details, and softer parts of the soundtrack will start to drop to or below the noise floor and become inaudible. That's the purpose of technologies like Dyn EQ and Dyn Volume.
post #45170 of 51437
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

I recently became an Energy dealer and have nothing but good things to say about the new Reference Connoisseur line. The floorstanders are great and the subwoofers are excellent performers. I personally have the V2.3i in a bedroom system with a Krell intregrated. Energy is a great brand that is the one of the few that makes their own drivers. You will love your Connoisseur setup.
post #45171 of 51437
I just posted my RC-10s to the AVS classified section. If they don't sell in a couple of days, I'm putting them up on sale on Ebay. Just wanted to offer them here on AVS first in case it helps someone out.
post #45172 of 51437
I am looking into buying a set of floor standing speaker for home audio/ surround sound. I have had Yamaha 5.1 surround sound system and I bought a Yamaha receiver RX-V371 about a year ago. I am new to the floor standing/ book shelf speaker world. Need help with some choices.
Thanks
post #45173 of 51437
Its tough to advice without a budget and what you are looking for in the speakers. And since you have posted in the Energy thread, are you looking only for Energy speakers? Theres several choices in other brands too, depending on your requirement.
post #45174 of 51437
My budget is around $300. I like a loud, crisp sound. Long lasting and durable tower speakers. Not against book shelf speakers.
I have seen a little bit Energy towers but haven't heard about them or seen them.
post #45175 of 51437
Other brands are fine too
post #45176 of 51437
Hard to find any Energy tower speakers for $300 unless you are willing to shop used. Where are you located?
post #45177 of 51437
Bakersfield Ca.
post #45178 of 51437
post #45179 of 51437
A hard task, but if you check out the craigslist ad I just linked it has been done wink.gif
post #45180 of 51437
Haha. You rock man. That was fast and easy.
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