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Energy Owners Thread - Page 1542

post #46231 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan__ View Post

Never used black RC-LCR just posted for sale.

For those of you who are interested, I just posted my LCR for sale over in the classified section. Still fresh in the wrapping. (My V5.2Cs are on their way.)

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463782/energy-rc-lcr-black-unused-still-in-wrapping

(PMs sent to those who previously expressed interest here.)

Bumped this - my RC-LCR is still for sale after 2 buyers fell through. Is anyone else interested here before I eBay it? (Maybe I should hold off until Vanns supply of V5.2C's runs dry.)

Dan
post #46232 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by greentea View Post

Anyone? There got to be quite a bit RC-70 owners in this forum

I recently acquired a pair of veritas 1.8's. they sound way better than my rc-70's. with that said, my 70's aren't going anywhere. I have them in my living room as the fronts in a 11.2 system. The .2 being dual seaton submersives. Considering that system is used more for movies, I don't feel I'm missing anything. And it's no slouch for music either.
The only thing I can say is if you're going to upgrade your setup, make sure you upgrade the weak link first. Are the rc-70's the weak link in your system?
post #46233 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by greentea

All,
After owning the RC-70 for almost two years, my upgrade itch start to kick in and I have been audition few speakers at the dealers last few weeks which included the following :

PSB imagine T2, Synchrony one, Totem forest, B & W 804D.

For the sound, the B & W 804D is at the top of my list and the Synchrony one come distant (not close) second.

The 804D produces the best sound stage and bass. The Synchrony one has good bass but my wife and I just feel there are something missing about the sound stage.

And here are the funny parts, none of these speakers I mentioned above seems to sound better than my RC-70 at home. I am not sure if it was the setup at the dealers but both of dealers are high-end stores so I assume their setup should not be that bad! In case you asked, there is no in-home trial from both dealers. Am I crazy to feel like the RC-70 is on par or even better than these well-known speakers when properly setup?

I would like to hear any RC-70 owners out there if they have similar experience

BTW, I plug all the ports and used two subwoofers for low-end bass if this make a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greentea View Post

Anyone? There got to be quite a bit RC-70 owners in this forum

Maybe you just like the sound of the RC-70's better. Speaker preference is subjective.

Perhaps you should take your RC-70's to the store so you can compare them head to head with these other models.
post #46234 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post


Maybe you just like the sound of the RC-70's better. Speaker preference is subjective.

Perhaps you should take your RC-70's to the store so you can compare them head to head with these other models.

Great idea!
post #46235 of 51452
Anecdote: I went to a local electronic shop -- they're not selling Energy speakers anymore, but I can't help browsing what they have even if their prices are totally not worth the time spent there.

In a corner they had those absolutely ridiculously huge Cerwin-Vega XLS-215 speakers. Those are 50" high, 3-way speakers with a single 6.5"... mid driver! and dual... 15" woofers. Anyway, I was surprised at the price, which was relatively low for speakers weighting 116 lbs each. Not that I buy my audio gear by weight, but I really wondered how they would sound. I didn't have the time for an audition. C-V's reputation is not stellar at all (frat party speakers, etc.) but I can't help thinking those would rock in a huge home theater biggrin.gif Anyway, less than the RC-70's MSRP price by a large margin.

Note that I'm not interested in buying those at all -- I have no space for such monstrosities -- but I guess there's a market for that biggrin.gif
post #46236 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Anecdote: I went to a local electronic shop -- they're not selling Energy speakers anymore, but I can't help browsing what they have even if their prices are totally not worth the time spent there.

In a corner they had those absolutely ridiculously huge Cerwin-Vega XLS-215 speakers. Those are 50" high, 3-way speakers with a single 6.5"... mid driver! and dual... 15" woofers. Anyway, I was surprised at the price, which was relatively low for speakers weighting 116 lbs each. Not that I buy my audio gear by weight, but I really wondered how they would sound. I didn't have the time for an audition. C-V's reputation is not stellar at all (frat party speakers, etc.) but I can't help thinking those would rock in a huge home theater biggrin.gif Anyway, less than the RC-70's MSRP price by a large margin.

Note that I'm not interested in buying those at all -- I have no space for such monstrosities -- but I guess there's a market for that biggrin.gif

Its funny you bring up CV......my fraternity had a pair of speakers similar to what you are describing (2-15" woofers and a monster horn in each). Those were great for parties! We ran them with a crown amp that pushed ~600w x 2 or something like that. Yeah....it was really loud...... biggrin.gif
post #46237 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's a great deal. Not long ago, you could get the 5.0 RC-Micro setup for $60. That would leave room to add a better sub than what comes with this package, as I see that one only goes down to 36 Hz.

So my last rehash for this post.

The RC-Micros are fantastic niche market speakers. They are very small, great sounding speakers. They are just not that loud, let me reiterate this, they are NOT loud. If you've owned these speakers then you know that dialing in the sub is hard enough because it has to ideally it needs to hit absolutely everything < 150-160Hz AND not overpower the speakers. I just think that trying to buy a "better" sub is going to set you up for failure, especially if you have long term goals in mind. The problem is the sub you would buy just cant be that loud and it has to have a lot of range.

So I would say if you were going to do something I would buy the 5.0's save a bunch of money and buy a sub appropriate for the system (i.e. a cheaper sub, I would NOT spend the balance of the difference) and enjoy the hell out of them, but not think the savings are going to return dividends in the future or else you're setting yourself up for disappointment. You can read about this disappointment in the 5.0 reviews on amazon.com.

In the end if you need very small speakers that sound great get these. If you don't...don't get them.

I suspect they would make fine satellites in a 7.1 type setup, however again if had 3 very loud front speakers they might get lost, another application for the cheap 5.0's.
Edited by aboroman - 3/27/13 at 9:41am
post #46238 of 51452
I had two vs-120s (12") with dark walnut / or cherry like finish sold at circuit city. Red/Orange Surrounds.

Loved them at the time. Ran them on a Adcom GFA-555 II i think it was. It was humorous that the speakers would play 20 some seconds after you turned the power off on the amp until in eventually shut down.



I later sold them for some Infinity CS3007 (Crescendo Series) with Kappa Center, Still have in basement at Father In Laws House, I would imagine they need refoaming at this point.

Then on to Athenas Audition series. , and eventually RC-70s. Which very well may be my last pair for a very long time.
post #46239 of 51452
I've been doing a little speaker inventory and find that I have too many. smile.gif Just not enough places to put them. Anyway, I was hoping to help someone out here, especially since there have been several people here trying to complete their setups. Here's what I have, all Energy, of course:

CB-5 - Originally bought to be used as shop speakers but never made it that far. Used only a handful of times and always put back in the box afterward. Possibly some marks on the bottoms from being moved but otherwise cabinets should be like new(I haven't looked at them in a while). Good for surround use. Price is less than 3 figures for the pair.

RC-LCR - Excellent condition, used very little, not sure if I even made it to the recommended break in time(50 hrs?)

and finally

RC-70 - I watched for the past couple of years as everyone raved about the sound of these but always thought they might be too big for my space. The recent Fry's sale pushed me over the edge and I finally bought them. As nice as they are, I'm not crazy about their physical size. I might change my mind on these but for now they are for sale(for the recent Frys price). I won't ship these as there have been too many sad shipping stories. For pick-up only but I'd be willing to drive a bit and meet someone halfway(so to speak). I'm in CT.

I'll ship the CB-5 and LCR. PM me if interested.
post #46240 of 51452
Where are your V-minis or RC-minis??
post #46241 of 51452
I finally completed my energy 5.1 setup with the arrival of my CR3's as surrounds I still have 2 vmini bookshelves for 7.1 maybe or might sell them (piano black). Here is a picture of my setup, that all started with the RC70 sale biggrin.gif

I am struggling with getting good surround even with these nice bipoles/dipoles. I ran a helicopter sound file that circles around and it's really difficult to tell if it's in front or behind me. I would think I should be able to tell front to back better. I realize that bipole/dipole are less direct but I got these so that I would hear something behind better. I have messed around with lots of settings (variations of bipole and dipole) but still not happy with it. I had already run wire years ago before the basement was finished, so that's where they wound up...

Left surround (looking at the picture) is 2ft up and 2ft behind the main listening area (currently set to bipole)
Right surround (looking at the picture) is 2ft up and 2ft behind the main listening area (4ft further away).
It has the ceiling about 18" above it and a side wall about 10" from it. I think it should be moved closer to the fronts and on the next wall. (currently set to bipole).

I have the sony str-dn1030 receiver and it got the distance correct etc...Reconfigured to small and set appropriate crossovers etc...The surrounds are showing +6db - seems quite high.. The front sound stage is great and pretty much seamless - extremely happy with those (R70's,V5.2).

Anyway,

Did anyone here start with a similar issue and possibly use CR3's?, and what movement/placement settings helped the most? I will probably take a ladder out and move them around/move furniture etc....and see if I can get them just right but it's going to be a royal pain.

I am thinking they are just too far back. I have read so many different things about the location of the surrounds and that could be the issue.
I was hoping to hook these up and listen and go YES! That's it! Unfortunately, I am not there yet.....

Also - anyone else have a good file/sound other than the standard movie intro's etc...? Looking for a clear sound from front to back to help test/configure. 20130327_132815_resized.jpg 533k .jpg file

Thanks!
post #46242 of 51452
Just read a CNET story about Klipsch sueing Monoprice for supposedly copying the Take Classics or something.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57576411-38/monoprice-a-tech-consumers-best-friend-or-a-copycat/?tag=nl.e703&s_cid=e703&ttag=e703
post #46243 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by eah9 View Post

I am struggling with getting good surround even with these nice bipoles/dipoles. I ran a helicopter sound file that circles around and it's really difficult to tell if it's in front or behind me. I would think I should be able to tell front to back better.

Well for one thing, if your head is totally fixed and you're looking toward your display, you are *not* supposed to be able to reliably tell where a sound source is when it is in a vertical plane centered between your ears. This is a physiological limitation. For your ears, a source 6 ft behind you or 6 ft in front of you is identical as the sound waves travel exactly for the same time before reaching your ears. Only by slightly moving your head or tilt it will you be able to realize the source was behind you (or above you for that matter). There may be other issues with your setup (I'm not saying that your problem is entirely the fault of your ears and brain wink.gif ) but try moving your head around a bit during such a test.

For the reason above, surrounds are often employed not necessarily to play sounds that are supposed to be behind you, but sounds that are all around, or also to "expand" the front stage. If the same sound is playing in your front left speaker as well as in the surround left, it doesn't feel like it's behind you at all, it just feels like it's further on the left.
post #46244 of 51452
Three words maybe that could help.


Denon or Yamaha or Onkyo



It might be time to match your AVR with the quality of your other components, Not saying sony is bad, but that isnt an ES series either, so there I said it.

I think even pioneers consumer stuff has a leg up on sony these days. I remember way back when when the 9's and 10 series Sony consumer line used descrete power and not ICs. for amps. but as with anything ....


time progresses on quality changes, sonys ideal target audience is not the same that buys Energy speakers, Infact many haven't even heard of Energy, but maybe / maybe not Klipsche. and but most certainly Audiovox.biggrin.gif
post #46245 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well for one thing, if your head is totally fixed and you're looking toward your display, you are *not* supposed to be able to reliably tell where a sound source is when it is in a vertical plane centered between your ears. This is a physiological limitation. For your ears, a source 6 ft behind you or 6 ft in front of you is identical as the sound waves travel exactly for the same time before reaching your ears. Only by slightly moving your head or tilt it will you be able to realize the source was behind you (or above you for that matter). There may be other issues with your setup (I'm not saying that your problem is entirely the fault of your ears and brain wink.gif ) but try moving your head around a bit during such a test.

For the reason above, surrounds are often employed not necessarily to play sounds that are supposed to be behind you, but sounds that are all around, or also to "expand" the front stage. If the same sound is playing in your front left speaker as well as in the surround left, it doesn't feel like it's behind you at all, it just feels like it's further on the left.

Thanks neutro - I just think my setup is off a bit. If someone talks to me as they are approaching when I am facing the other direction, I know they are somewhere behind me. That's what I have heard from other surround systems and would expect from a properly configured 5.1 system. Did you take a look a the picture? Do you think 2 ft above and behind is ok strictly from a speaker placement standpoint?
post #46246 of 51452
A couple of thoughts looking at your photos:

- First, your center channel looks like it is recessed a few inches back under the riser? That's a no-no as you are getting muddying reflections from the flat surfaces in front of the face of the speaker. I would move the center up (or the riser back if necessary) such that the front edge of the center channel is clear of the riser.

- On the surround placement, it appears that your right surround is wedged into a corner with a wall directly in front of it? That is diminishing its ability to create a "wraparound" sensation as the side firing driving is reflecting off that well before it hits the listening zone. I would move both surrounds forward a couple of feet such that they are directly to the sides of the couch, removing the obstruction in front of the right surround speaker. Being directly to the sides you may want to then switch to the dipole setting.

- More generally, on your comment that "I got these so that I would hear something behind better" it's important to understand that the primary surround channels in film soundtracks are SIDE surround. If you go to the movie theater the surrounds line the side walls; a bipole/dipole surround is intended to mimic this array by spreading the sound along the side walls. It's not really an ideal setup to make things image *behind* you. For that, you really want to have back surrounds directly behind you, so give those Mini's a shot back there.
post #46247 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc88keyz View Post

Three words maybe that could help.


Denon or Yamaha or Onkyo



It might be time to match your AVR with the quality of your other components, Not saying sony is bad, but that isnt an ES series either, so there I said it.

I think even pioneers consumer stuff has a leg up on sony these days. I remember way back when when the 9's and 10 series Sony consumer line used descrete power and not ICs. for amps. but as with anything ....


time progresses on quality changes, sonys ideal target audience is not that same that buys Energy speakers, Infact many havent even heard of Energy, but maybe klipsche. and certainly Audiovox.

I was hoping nobody would say that mad.gif......It was $400 and got it when my 8 year old Onkyo died a couple of months ago. That's what "officially" started me on the speaker spending spree. The sound quality is tremendous from the front 3 though, so I am not convinced it is the receiver. And reviews are all good on this model for sound/music and movies (145w per channel). I did research before purchasing but it was pre-AVS/Energy forum days.... I do realize that Denon or Yamaha may have been a wiser and safer choice.
post #46248 of 51452
Quote:
I was hoping nobody would say that

I've restrained myself tongue.gif although to be honest I agree with you that the receiver isn't the fundamental issue. That said, using a receiver with better calibration plus Dynamic EQ for greater surround envelopment may not be a bad idea. But you should still be able to get good sound with your current receiver.

Quote:
And reviews are all good on this model for sound/music and movies (145w per channel)

Um, there is zero chance that is actually true. No $500 receiver can put out 100 watts per channel, let alone 145. But, that's sort of a moot point, as it's not the issue here.
post #46249 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by wader2k View Post

Just read a CNET story about Klipsch sueing Monoprice for supposedly copying the Take Classics or something.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57576411-38/monoprice-a-tech-consumers-best-friend-or-a-copycat/?tag=nl.e703&s_cid=e703&ttag=e703

Wow so Monoprice's were in fact a rip-off!
Quote:
Originally Posted by eah9 View Post

Thanks neutro - I just think my setup is off a bit. If someone talks to me as they are approaching when I am facing the other direction, I know they are somewhere behind me. That's what I have heard from other surround systems and would expect from a properly configured 5.1 system. Did you take a look a the picture? Do you think 2 ft above and behind is ok strictly from a speaker placement standpoint?

Batpig answered the same I was going to add when AVSForum went down a few minutes ago biggrin.gif

I'll just add on top of batpig's last comment that in *most* movies -- or at least 5.1 movies -- the surround content is meant to enlarge the front stage and provide enveloping sound. Only in 6.1 and 7.1 content is there content specifically for surround backs. When those are mixed down for a 5.1 setup, this is where it becomes interesting to have the surround a bit in the back (120-deg position). For example, the back channel in 6.1 content will be re-mixed to be equally present in both surrounds, and if they're a bit in the back, then you'll have a slight sensation of things being in the back. But if the surround content is mixed to be an extension of the front content, it will add up an you'll perceive the content as coming from the side of the room.

An example of true "back" content: I was listening to a DTS 6.1 release of an anime movie (Evangelion 1.11 and 2.22) and I had the distinct impression of being between the characters and a crowd because of that.

An example of surround content extending the front stage: in Snow White, it's used quite a bit for the sound of horses's hooves on the ground to give the impression that they're still there on the far sides even when they're not on the screen. That way you feel that you're closer to the action: the closer you are to passing horses, the further to the right and left you'll hear the sounds.
post #46250 of 51452
i could take it back, but i wouldn't feel right smile.gif.

When you start EQing and mixing to your room. I think Sony falls short in this area keep plugging away. See what you come up with and keep getting great advice from the likes of Batpig, Nuetro and others. Its sometimes a lot of trial and error.

I fell in love with Denons a few years ago, after having 2 sony ES AVRS, I got my start with sony consumer model STRDA1010. About 15-16 yrs ago

If anyone is a sony fan, do you remember the VIsion Touch and the EGG series.

What a catastrophe of an interface. I think they all got fired for making it and went on to work for gyration or something. lol
post #46251 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by eah9 View Post

I finally completed my energy 5.1 setup with the arrival of my CR3's as surrounds I still have 2 vmini bookshelves for 7.1 maybe or might sell them (piano black). Here is a picture of my setup, that all started with the RC70 sale biggrin.gif

I am struggling with getting good surround even with these nice bipoles/dipoles. I ran a helicopter sound file that circles around and it's really difficult to tell if it's in front or behind me. I would think I should be able to tell front to back better. I realize that bipole/dipole are less direct but I got these so that I would hear something behind better. I have messed around with lots of settings (variations of bipole and dipole) but still not happy with it.

Adding rear surrounds should really help. With a 7.1 setup (and Dolby PLIIx engaged for a 5.1 track) the sound actually will be coming from behind you when it's supposed to be (e.g. a helicopter circling the room).

If you do add rear surrounds, then you could move the side surrounds forward a bit (so they fill in the gap better between fronts and rears). But in that room you really only have one good seat (maybe two) for accurate surround sound.

And when you want accurate positioning of surround effects, direct radiating speakers may be the way to go. Those V-minis should work well.
post #46252 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

A couple of thoughts looking at your photos:

- First, your center channel looks like it is recessed a few inches back under the riser? That's a no-no as you are getting muddying reflections from the flat surfaces in front of the face of the speaker. I would move the center up (or the riser back if necessary) such that the front edge of the center channel is clear of the riser.

- On the surround placement, it appears that your right surround is wedged into a corner with a wall directly in front of it? That is diminishing its ability to create a "wraparound" sensation as the side firing driving is reflecting off that well before it hits the listening zone. I would move both surrounds forward a couple of feet such that they are directly to the sides of the couch, removing the obstruction in front of the right surround speaker. Being directly to the sides you may want to then switch to the dipole setting.

- More generally, on your comment that "I got these so that I would hear something behind better" it's important to understand that the primary surround channels in film soundtracks are SIDE surround. If you go to the movie theater the surrounds line the side walls; a bipole/dipole surround is intended to mimic this array by spreading the sound along the side walls. It's not really an ideal setup to make things image *behind* you. For that, you really want to have back surrounds directly behind you, so give those Mini's a shot back there.

Thanks! My center was about 1/2" back - looks like more on the picture (still need to stain that thing - one of these days). I did move it out now - We had the grills off when my little one was asleep and put them back on so they don't get damaged - must have gotten pushed back a bit.

Moving the surrounds is going to be a pain but I guess I really should do it. It will just take me a while to get the wires moved and the holes patched up. The right one is definitely in a bad spot - the ceiling is lower there too, so lots of bad reflections.

I have about 12 feet behind the couch to the wall. Hopefully I can get the vmini's to work there - Do you think that's too far to be effective?

Thanks for your input!!
Edited by eah9 - 3/27/13 at 12:20pm
post #46253 of 51452
Anyone think these V-mini-C's look like they were made for this space smile.gif

I am kinda liking the position of them. What a beautiful speaker for $90 bucks.

Can i get by with this position for heights??

I think its supposed to be directly above, but should audessy fix this position with positive results.


Edited by nc88keyz - 3/27/13 at 12:11pm
post #46254 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Wow so Monoprice's were in fact a rip-off!
............

Well, I wouldn't quite make that leap yet. Could be, but I deal with many Chinese venders and exclusivity contracts are rare and not easily enforced in my experience.

The typical Chinese vender will sell anything they make to anybody that comes along.
If I had to guess, Monoprice simply bought from the same vender that supplied Energy. That vender simply rebadged and offered it up.
post #46255 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc88keyz View Post

Anyone think these V-mini-C's look like they were made for this space smile.gif

I am kinda liking the position of them. What a beautiful speaker for $90 bucks.

Can i get by with this position for heights??

I think its supposed to be directly above, but should audessy fix this position with positive results.


If it was me I would angle them down a few degrees.
post #46256 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I've restrained myself tongue.gif although to be honest I agree with you that the receiver isn't the fundamental issue. That said, using a receiver with better calibration plus Dynamic EQ for greater surround envelopment may not be a bad idea. But you should still be able to get good sound with your current receiver.
Um, there is zero chance that is actually true. No $500 receiver can put out 100 watts per channel, let alone 145. But, that's sort of a moot point, as it's not the issue here.

I just looked it up.... and........You are correct - Not at 7 channels (80) but close at 5 (94). And yes, not that relevant in this case. I just mentioned what was listed on the box. (145) - a bit of a fabrication like most manufacturer's I suppose....It's capable of handling these speakers for sure.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-sony-str-dn1030-av-receiver?page=0,3

I will move my surrounds up and try it out. Might take me a day or 2....thanks again!
post #46257 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by wader2k View Post

Well, I wouldn't quite make that leap yet. Could be, but I deal with many Chinese venders and exclusivity contracts are rare and not easily enforced in my experience.

The typical Chinese vender will sell anything they make to anybody that comes along.
If I had to guess, Monoprice simply bought from the same vender that supplied Energy. That vender simply rebadged and offered it up.

You're right. That's what the article kind of implied. On top of which, it looks like Klipsch is only suing with respect to the ribbed eliptical surround patent, not the overall shape, design and looks of the product. What I meant is that the Monoprice version was not licensed from Klipsch/Audiovox at all, and that was the unknown.
post #46258 of 51452
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Wow so Monoprice's were in fact a rip-off!
Batpig answered the same I was going to add when AVSForum went down a few minutes ago biggrin.gif

I'll just add on top of batpig's last comment that in *most* movies -- or at least 5.1 movies -- the surround content is meant to enlarge the front stage and provide enveloping sound. Only in 6.1 and 7.1 content is there content specifically for surround backs. When those are mixed down for a 5.1 setup, this is where it becomes interesting to have the surround a bit in the back (120-deg position). For example, the back channel in 6.1 content will be re-mixed to be equally present in both surrounds, and if they're a bit in the back, then you'll have a slight sensation of things being in the back. But if the surround content is mixed to be an extension of the front content, it will add up an you'll perceive the content as coming from the side of the room.

An example of true "back" content: I was listening to a DTS 6.1 release of an anime movie (Evangelion 1.11 and 2.22) and I had the distinct impression of being between the characters and a crowd because of that.

An example of surround content extending the front stage: in Snow White, it's used quite a bit for the sound of horses's hooves on the ground to give the impression that they're still there on the far sides even when they're not on the screen. That way you feel that you're closer to the action: the closer you are to passing horses, the further to the right and left you'll hear the sounds.

Thanks! The back wall for the mini's is almost 12 feet back, Still worth it for those there for 7.1?
post #46259 of 51452
Yes, I think it's still worth it if what you are seeking is the sensation of sounds coming from directly behind you.
post #46260 of 51452
best part is the review on monoprice a few months ago,

they forgot to remove an Energy reference in the the manual.

That might be one tech-writer or " copy" writer that is looking for new job.

It is fuuny none-the less. and I have those kicker-rebadge headphones for 19.xx and some change. they sound great too!!!
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