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2006 Chicago Shootout - Page 2  

post #31 of 277
Patrick,
I would think it would be best if pb painted their screen and brought it to you. That way there can be no operator error attributed to your painting of the screen.

Ericglo
post #32 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
Patrick Just worry about your own problems other than jumping in where you are only half informed. It really help anything I asked straight foreward questions ones that should be answered , If you see it as a one sided attack then fine but keep out of it ok ?

As for your latest statement that mm's and pb's shots are the best you have seen and are representative of actual comparisons !! then I think It is a good time for me to end this conversation.

I am not going to continue it has gotten way past any point of being constructive or civil and I want to keep this from escalating

One word of advice Patrick listen to some of the ideas people are giving you .

West sounds like he would be a good person to talk with to make sure the camera setting are set properly .

Good luck, I hope this ends up as fun an event as it should.

Bruce
Bruce,
I will assume that my reply to Westshore was posted while you were typing your response.

I think your idea is sound. This conversation should end. I'm still looking for anything constructive you did contribute to this thread, beyond the usual MM bashing, but I'm sure you valued your input. I know I got a big rush out of each and every syllable.

P

Added: I have observed lots of back-and-forth in the past six months. I've sent messages to both pb and MM that I thought arguing with people on here was wrongheaded, and nonconstructive. Some of you just don't like them, more MM than Pete, and they're not going to change that. They've done as much for these concepts in the past six months as anyone, probably more because they were working together and sharing. And now they've shared it with everyone.

This is not to dismiss the work of Mission and Lyle and Benven and (others forgive me, but those are the only people whose work I copied to my uberspreadsheet of all formulae.) As I've said about a dozen times, I like Lyle's 12i mix better than RS_MMaxxMudd (original formula, not the subsequent ones) and that's why I think the BF mix will be even better. And not just because I had to go out and drop another $5 at Michael's today for some paints that were probably adequately covered in my already vast inventory of small bottles. I wanted to faithfully reproduce it, like I tried to do with CG ($24 in paint from Dick Blick).
post #33 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
Patrick,
I would think it would be best if pb painted their screen and brought it to you. That way there can be no operator error attributed to your painting of the screen.

Ericglo
Eric,
I think pb is going to give me a BF panel to look at, but I'll paint my own so as to be representative of what any schmuck like myself could reasonably produce. Now that the mix is posted, there's no reason for me to buy it since I have all the ingredients. So, in the interest of objectivity, I'll make a pass at it myself.

I'd hate to be accused of being "behold'n to the MM".
P

Edit: In fact, I will take Lyle up on his offer to send me his mix because I've had trouble reproducing it accurately (I think). I didn't have trouble doing RS_MMaxxMudd. We'll see about the BF mix.
post #34 of 277
Got any extra bus tickets ?

Bruce
post #35 of 277
I think you'd be better off with one standard, either the "any schmuck can do it" or the "pro helps you in some way or another".
post #36 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
I think you'd be better off with one standard, either the "any schmuck can do it" or the "pro helps you in some way or another".
Thank you for your input.

See, I try to isolate pb_maxx from any undue influence here, and I get criticized. If I said that the panel was painted by him, someone would come on here and say "how do you know what the formula REALLY WAS"?

Truthfully, I'd rather have all the folks provide me with their paint samples and I'd do the painting. But if I do that, someone will say that pb_maxx gave me some drug-laden formula that unduly influenced me.

I'm 16 hours into this concept, haven't painted on goshdarned panel, and already I'm exhausted with it.
post #37 of 277
You're not going to come up with everything that's going to please everyone anyway. I suggest you set a deadline by which you must have decided all the parameters. To help you choose you could list choices of different parameters and ask members to choose. Then, use that input to help you decide.
For example,
1. Which 7 of the following 10 screens would you like to see compared?
2. Should the ingredients be measured by weight or volume?
post #38 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
You're not going to come up with everything that's going to please everyone anyway. I suggest you set a deadline by which you must have decided all the parameters. To help you choose you could list choices of different parameters and ask members to choose. Then, use that input to help you decide.
For example,
1. Which 7 of the following 10 screens would you like to see compared?
2. Should the ingredients be measured by weight or volume?
Good ideas, all. I'll do more tomorrow. My fingers are bleeding from all the catfighting. Been fun, though. I like arguing, and I saved my voice for yelling at the Bears...

P
post #39 of 277
Bravo! A standardized test. As they say in those Sam Adams commercials... "Brilliant!" You can tell what a revelation this is simply by the number of posts in one day and by looking at the esteemed names of those that authored them. Now I am only a mere lurker hoping to benefit greater from this but in the interest of being thorough, I would hope that along with UPW you might include the other heavy hitters that have been recommended here at AVS Forum. Those that I can remember are Parkland, Do-Able & BOC. I am sure that there are others that have slipped my mind or that I simply have not read about yet.

Also, might I recommend angled shots for viewing cone samples.

I would not worry so much about the title of movie(s) used but the content of the image or images. Certainly the bright (artificial!) colors of Nemo do impress but we are all interested also in whiter whites, blacker blacks and accurate flesh tones. We (as in you Patrick) should come up an image or series of images that display each of these aspects. If there are scenes that come to anyones' mind that are especially troublesome with say hotspotting or other HT anomolies, those could be included.

Please be sure to post the exact formula used with with each of the mixes.

Again, I say bravo for coming up with this idea and I hope that I have presented some ideas that you will consider. I do apologize for the added time and effect that they may present but this effort should be as thorough as can be.

Now everyone, click "Subscribe to this thread"... now.
post #40 of 277
@psennett

Are you comparing to DNP Supernova or Vutec Silverstar? These are the correct manufactured screens to compare against. One DIY mix versus another does not do much for me.
post #41 of 277
Thread Starter 
OK, day 1 of discussion of the Chicago Shootout idea is complete and has yielded the following ideas:
  1. Photography should be standardized, ie: manual settings and consistency from shot-to-shot.
  2. Patrick should mix all paints and paint all screens, vs. Patrick should paint all screens with paint concoctions supplied by the developers, vs. Developers should submit painted panels of a standardized size and material. Discuss.
  3. A plain "Silverscreen" panel should be included to be representative of plain gray screens.
  4. Standardized and calibrated screenshots should be included in the photos taken. Digital Video Essentials will be used, because it's what I have. The obligatory Nemo photos will also be taken, along with darker non-animated scenes.
  5. No party who has a fiduciary or egotistical stake in the shootout will be involved in the administration or implementation of the shootout.
  6. We'll be accepting donations to transport "bruce can" down, to be an objective observer (the U.N. of the DIY screen world.) Blue helmet optional.
  7. I have both a 4805 and a Optoma EP719 available for the test. I had intended this to be a test for my 4805, to pick a moderate ambient light rejecting formula. Discuss.
  8. Added on edit: Suggestions for comparisons to mfg screens have been made. I'd like to have large samples similar in size to the panels listed below. Discuss.

I believe that the most valid visual and photographic test will be obtained by using larger panel sizes. 30" x 40" panels have been suggested and offered by pb_maxx. My logistics will allow a test of not much more than six panels. So I propose the following:

Here are the mixes offered for consideration. Pick six.
  • RS_MMaxxMudd ambient
  • RS_MMaxxMudd LL
  • Black Flame standard
  • Black Flame "lite"
  • Canadian Gray
  • Big Lyle's 12 ingredient mix
  • Big Lyle's "updated" mix
  • Mission313 white (with color warming technology)
  • Mission313Mix
  • Mission313HC
  • Mission313SILVER
  • Silverscreen
  • Kilz plain white
  • Plain UPW
  • Kevivoe "white mix"
Patrick
post #42 of 277
Here's another suggestion: As has been raised in other threads from time to time, what about including a "standard" Walmart gray (or white) posterboard?

If you do, then I create a batch of "Westshore's Magic Wonder Mix" (or Steve invents "Steve's Sensational Screen Slop", or Patrick invents "Patricks Perfectly Perfect Projection Paint", etc.) and paint a screen, we can take pictures of that with the reference posterboard and when posted for comment, all can have the visual reference of the posterboard from each person.

I know that Behr Silverscreen was suggested as a reference as well, and I'm not suggesting that it be replaced. The advantage to the posterboard is that it is widely available, decently sized, consistent, etc.

Just another idea for consideration.
post #43 of 277
@ psennett

The kevivoe "white" mix is not an ambient light mix. I suggest you delete it from consideration. The others I experimented with may be better, but you need not try these as they are theatre screens not sports bar screens. I suggest "clear white platinum" as the best compromise between "theatre" and "sports bar" modes.

k
post #44 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett
I don't have any SilverScreen, but perhaps one of the "locals" does.

I have the following movies:
  • Twister
  • Monty Python's Holy Grail
  • Stripes
  • Blazing Saddles
Will any of these do?

Patrick

PS: Yes, I know. Pretty pathetic list of movies. I rent from Flix.
You must include 'Gladiator'- it's reference quality.
post #45 of 277
Patrick: I have a number of high quality DVDs that can be used in the shootout, including:

Any or all of LOTR: extended editions
Spiderman II
Star Wars Eps. III-VI
Gladiator
Band of Brothers
Most, if not all, Pixar movies

Sorry--don't have the Fifth Element. While the picture quality may be stunning, I couldn't bring myself to buy that movie--didn't like it all that much.

Perhaps you should compile a list of suggested scenes from movies that people would want to see in the shootout, and settle on a good mix of light scenes, dark scenes, animated, colorful, etc.

One issue that I have seen (and struggled with myself) is that any scene you pick needs to have similar elements through the picture, otherwise, the placement of the sample will influence the subjective (or objective) review. I don't know exactly how you plan to conduct the shootout, but if you put all samples up, the ones near the corners aren't going to see as much "action" as the ones in the center.
post #46 of 277
This sounds like a diy forum mix shootout , not a bad idea but not what I had in mind when I started My thread on doing some actual comparisons to see how we are doing against the other high gain and black screens .

This was asked specifically by people who were or are contemplating buying the BEST they were half convinced by the new BFLF but were growing tired of the many repeated non comparisons shots .

There was enough hesitation as to make some potential customers grow wary of the validity of the manufactures claims that it was the best ambient screen choice .

I said I would like to do a test with proven ambient light screens , and I still think that would make a good shoot out , maybe the top three from the amateur shootout should come to the pro shootout :)

For some reason this caused an uproar from the manufactures when I wanted a
comparison .

For some reason offensive attack when I posted the reflective PAINTS .

THE REASON FOR THE COMPARISONS,
I said I wanted petty $hit to end and what better way than to have a comparison to see where every body stood .

There has been a few positive things come out of my threads with the grey reflective paints and the blask fusion thread .

WE now have the mix :) nothing like some competition as a motivator.

The second one is we are actually doing some comparisons NOW like the diy one you are doing.

The other test many people are interested in is WHAT is the BEST ambient light screen period.

People could care a less if the manufacturer's name is sony or MM .

There are cheap ambient commercial screens out there as well and we should look at those as well as competitors .

The sad truth is if you are buying a mix or screen from someone , then there is no reason to discount commercial screens right .

Bruce
post #47 of 277
IMO it would be best to broaden the scope of this shootout to include at least 2 large samples of manufactured screens. Of course if not practical, it could be done more easily in a subsequent shootout, especially once a few of the DIY condenders have been eliminated.

Although I doubt it would be of any interest, I could supply a good sized sample of a Dazian high contrast white screen... just offering.
post #48 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett
Here are the mixes offered for consideration. Pick six.
  • RS_MMaxxMudd ambient
  • RS_MMaxxMudd LL
  • Black Flame standard
  • Black Flame "lite"
  • Canadian Gray
  • Big Lyle's 12 ingredient mix
  • Big Lyle's "updated" mix
  • Mission313 white (with color warming technology)
  • Mission313Mix
  • Mission313HC
  • Mission313SILVER
  • Silverscreen
  • Kilz plain white
  • Plain UPW
  • Kevivoe "white mix"
Patrick
I suggest these 6 in no particular order:

Black Flame standard (or the lite version if recommended by MMan or pb_maxxx)
RS_MMaxxMudd ambient (the LL won't stand a chance)
Canadian Gray Plus (not Canadian Gray because it's too flawed)
Biglyle's 12i
Biglyle's updated
Silverscreen (or preferably 1 of Mission313's mixes if he posts a favorable comparison of it to SS)
post #49 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
This sounds like a diy forum mix shootout , not a bad idea but not what I had in mind when I started My thread on doing some actual comparisons to see how we are doing against the other high gain and black screens .

(snip)

The sad truth is if you are buying a mix or screen from someone , then there is no reason to discount commercial screens right .

Bruce
Boil it down for me. What would you like to see? I don't have access to any manufactured screens, personally, but I'd be happy to add some into the shootout if that's what people want. And can provide me with samples that are reasonably sized as to be comparable.

If I increase the number of samples to be simultaneously tested (ala Tryg), then I'll almost have to go away from my 4805 and use the brighter Optoma. Not that it's a bad thing, but I don't know if the horsepower of the 4805 would give enough oomph to make a fair comparison.

P
post #50 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
IMO it would be best to broaden the scope of this shootout to include at least 2 large samples of manufactured screens. Of course if not practical, it could be done more easily in a subsequent shootout, especially once a few of the DIY condenders have been eliminated.

Although I doubt it would be of any interest, I could supply a good sized sample of a Dazian high contrast white screen... just offering.
If I could fold or mask it to be roughly 30" x 40", I'd love to see it.

P
post #51 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett
If I could fold or mask it to be roughly 30" x 40", I'd love to see it.

P
I'm sure others would too; however what I meant was if you should decide to use it in your shootout, I will be glad to send it no strings attached. If not used here, my offer stands for anyone else's shootout.
post #52 of 277
Thread Starter 
OK, more thought and here's the result. It'd be far easier for me if the developers send their mixes to me. I'll roll them all and we can all see the results. Enough paint for 3 coats on a 30" x 40" board ought to do it.

Comments?
post #53 of 277
Sounds good to me. I suggest you require the developers state their endorsement of this and other parameters you determine before deciding to include their mixes in your shootout.
post #54 of 277
Thread Starter 
OK, here's what I think will work best. For consistency sake, I'd like to request that the developers agree to send me a quantity of mix sufficient to cover three coats of a 30" x 40" board.

I think we'd be best served by using my IF 4805, which is what many of us have. I will use it for both ambient light and "dark room", and the projection length will probably be around 14' to accommodate the large overall size of the screens. PB_Maxx's substrate will yield a screen of 60" x 120", so for my 16:9 projection will take up all of that.

The goal is to do a comparison test of the best ambient light formulae available for DIY users. The BF formula has been touted as the most advanced iteration of the progressive work of many individuals. Let's put that to the test. With no other suggestions other than 1Time, I'll take most of his. I'd like the following to agree to "come to the post":

BigLyle - Your call, either the 12i or the new-and-improved mix
Benven - A batch of CG plus
Mission313 - You pick
pb_maxx - Your call, either the BF or BF-lite
Silverscreen - Anybody local got a few spongefuls?
___________fill in the blank___________. Plain UPW?

Edit: Oops, I forgot RS_MMaxxMudd. Should we include it, or does BF supplant it?

Patrick
post #55 of 277
Thread Starter 
I'd like to get the painting done next week and have the samples all painted, cured and ready to start shooting a week from Saturday Which means I'd have to have paint no later than Monday 1/23. Is that sufficient time to get stuff to 60134?
post #56 of 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett
I'd like to get the painting done next week and have the samples all painted, cured and ready to start shooting a week from Saturday Which means I'd have to have paint no later than Monday 1/23. Is that sufficient time to get stuff to 60134?
I don't think I will have the new formulas done in time.

313MIX is not really an ambient light mix however it can be applied over a grey base.

I will see what I can make happen this weekend.
post #57 of 277
psennett, I haven't left the house in over a week. And, I am not getting better. If you have all of the components for CG Plus, I trust you. Mix it and roll it.
post #58 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mission313
I don't think I will have the new formulas done in time.

313MIX is not really an ambient light mix however it can be applied over a grey base.

I will see what I can make happen this weekend.
Well, if it's built out of the standard suite of ingredients, I can make it here. As evidenced by my experience with CG, sometimes I ain't right.
post #59 of 277
Benven

What wrong with you?

You havent been playing with chicken heads again?
post #60 of 277
I wish biglyle! I ruined my back, again. Was supposed to fly out to Cancun today, with 6 people people from your town. But alas, crawling really isn't the way to travel. So I sit here with my popcorn watching all the drama on that AVS channel. It's better than real TV. I got so bored these last 10 days that I actually ordered BEV. Coming tomorrow to install. Sorry for my digression. Just had to get that off my back.
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