Awful Output On Outlaw 990's Component Output From Composite Input Sources?

I just received an Outlaw Audio model 990 today, hookup seemed quite straightforward but immediately I noticed something is very wrong with the video quality on the component output when using a composite input source. Is this normal or do I perhaps have a bad unit? The image looks washed out, out of focus, and almost smeared as well. Out of curiosity I hooked up the composite output of the Outlaw to my television and viewed that, the image was much crisper, at least 10 times better than the image off the components but still not quite as good as hooking up directly to the television's inputs.

If anyone has some ideas where to start, that'd be great, the manual doesn't have any troubleshooting. I also filled out a support ticket to outlaw but I figured it can't hurt to pick the minds of some very informed people on this forum as well.

Thanks,

Rob W

I'm using it with an xbox running something called xbox media center. I'll give another input a try, I didn't think of that yet. I actually ordered the hdtv component/optical output kit for my xbox but it's not arrived yet, however, if there's something wrong with the upconversion in my 990 of course I'd like to have that corrected while it's still under warranty. If you saw my tv screen with this setup you'd agree it's just terrible, not like something you have to scrutinize to see. Using a component input seems to be fine but I haven't looked that closely yet, if there's a difference from running component through the 990 versus a direct hookup it's subtle.

Thanks for the reply, I'm sure it'll get figured eventually. I may just have a defective unit even.

Rob W

Hey, thanks for giving that a try... I also tried another input, it didn't make any difference. One thing however I did try is using my dvd player as a composite and s-video source, it seems that it looks better than the xbox so maybe the xbox for some reason is intolerant of being routed through the 990? I'll have to do some more testing I guess, I did also notice that whites weren't clean and exhibited a yellowish tinge as you decribed in comparison to the component video input. I'll have to try some more sources just to make sure this isn't something xbox specific, if that's the case and the hdtv kit solves it I'll be quite happy.

Rob W

Just to follow up, it's not just the xbox, any composite source converted to component on the 990 just looks bad, hopefully outlaw will sort this out.

Rob W

Thanks for the enlightenment John, at least it's a step towards understanding why this is happening. It makes sense to me, however I figured it'd be a lot less severe than what I'm seeing. I'd describe the output from composite to component as being similar to a VHS tape that's been re-copied once. Things lack contrast, have no snap and appear blurry. Colors are not pure either and take on a dingy look.

I guess my remaining question would be, is the decoder in the 990 perhaps defective, is it low quality, or, are composite to component conversions bad news all around and something that should never be done? My television does have composite and s-video inputs so I can use them but that creates and extra step in switching sources, something I think we all would hope not to have to do. Unfortunately devices like my Tivo don't have component outputs nor will the HTPC I'm buidling so the need for s-video or composite inputs is still there.

Rob W

Maybe this will help:

http://www.truetolight.com/post/990/index.htm

Rob

My tivo does have s-video out, as does the dvd player I used to create the image for those pictures. I tried it briefly, I think the image was slightly better but still pretty bad, I'll try it again today since it appears this condition is normal. So I guess as long as we have analog input devices or those lacking component outputs, we'll always need to retain analog inputs on our output devices (projectors and tv's).

The quality of the output makes me ask this question though... why do any of the manufacturers even build this functionality into thier units? I think in light of this severe degradation they'd simply say that for composite switching you must simply use the composite outputs, especially a no-nonsense company like Outlaw that seems to tell things as they are.

Thanks,

Rob W

Thanks for the link John, I read the page and I agree that composite video is quite low in quality, that's not really what my problem is though... it's the conversion that's giving me problems. The images I posted were straight through composite versus composite converted to component. While the straight through composite isn't as good as using component, it's quite watchable but the converted signal is really terrible, enough to make my 65 year old parents think something is wrong with the picture.

As you said though, this may be entirely normal for upconversions... I'm not trying to disagree or argue it, I just want to be sure that I don't have a bad converter. Somewhere along the threads I posted someone reported thiers was degraded but not nearly as bad as mine using the 990. Maybe it's just subjective, I can't say without seeing thiers but on mine the conversion is definitely something I'd not want to do. I'll give the s-video another try, I'm pretty sure it wasn't much better but I didn't use it extensively.

I guess in an ideal world everything would be dvi or some kind of optical interface. In light of all this I'm already making sure I get an output card for my homebuilt pvr that'll do component. I can already see my next conundrum, not enough component inputs at this rate

Thanks again,

Rob

I did read that, it also said that using s-video is a much better idea as well. My dvd player also has s-video outputs, I just tried those and compared s-video to component versus s-video to composite output into the TV. The s-video to component conversion looked no better than the composite to component one and in addition, the s-video to composite blows away the s-video to component combination (the only reason I did this is I had a composite cable already hooked to the tv, I could have run an s-video one but the quality of that feed wasn't the problem). I hope I'm not being confusing but in short s-video didn't seem to help anything, I guess a signal converted from s-video OR composite to component is going to look terrible compared to either of them routed directly?

Sorry if I seem to be dragging this on, I am reading and hearing what you're saying but you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge and I appreciate the information. I'm still waiting to see what Outlaw says, I sent them the link to the images as well. I realize they have great support, I could call them and get someone right away but it's not an urgent matter and in the meanwhile perhaps I can learn a bit more about home theater. If they look at the images and say that's how it's supposed to be I'll just route an s-video feed into my tv and switch that any time I use an s-video or composite source. I'm just trying to rule out a sub-par conversion from my particular unit. I see others here have posted that their HK units are just as bad in this regard, I'm wondering if *any* units do a better job of upsampling. It's entirely possible that they used a lower grade processor for this figuring it'd be better to cut costs here since nobody that's interested in a high quality signal wouild be using composite or s-video anyways. I do however thing that if this is the case it should be noted in the manual or literature that "while component upsampling provides a convenient way to hook up your HT system, it's highly recommended that you do not do this due to significant picture quality loss"

Rob W

Jack, if you're interested in the 990 I'd not rule it out yet based on this, unless the reviewer was incompetent I read on a review that the composite to component conversion suffered NO degradation. The url to the review is at:

www.prillaman.net/990_review.html

The reviewer writes:
"Since not every source connected to the 990 will be component video or DVI, I also experimented a bit with s-video and composite video sources. All of these inputs are available at the component video monitor output, and they arrive there with no degradation that I could find. Likewise, the composite and s-video monitor outputs are very clean."

To me this says there's a huge difference between my unit and the one he's using. I sent a few large letters to Outlaw and they're checking it out, they didn't say yet if what I'm experiencing is out of the question but they said they're going to hook up several composite sources to a 990 and see what they get.

I'm also having some audio problems with the 990, in short I'm getting all frequencies out of my sub channel and the menu options are incorrect as well. I'm posting a different thread on this if you want to read it fully since it's not really related to this issue at all.

Good luck on your search for a better receiver, the support at Outlaw is very good so far, they get back to me and follow up but I have a feeling their quality control might not be 100%. They may not even know that some of these problems exist if they're not on all the 990's.

Rob

Just to amend my own post, Outlaw agreed to send me another 990, they said the output while not perfect should be watchable if transcoded. I hooked up the new unit yesterday, they shipped it out quite fast. Unless there's an entire batch of bad units, my opinion is the transcode quality is terrible on both, in my opinion not watchable. Perhaps some users either don't compare the output to the original or maybe they just don't care from low quality sources as long as you can see something. Regardless of this, I'm still going to keep the unit, in all other areas it serves my needs and to solve the video issues I'll just run another lead to my television and avoid transcoding, I suggested that Outlaw note this in the book or even remove the conversion since it is so poor but I guess that's up to them.

Throughout this support from the company was some of the best I've gotten and the unit, in spite of a few flaws is still a great well laid out easy to configure receiver.

Rob W

I've had no such issues with my vcr going into the outlaw, just the degraded image on components. You may want to try posting this to the outlaw saloon or contacting them directly. In my case I wound up using 2 sets of outputs/inputs into my tv, one for component, another for s-video since the lower quality sources look better letting my tv upscale them, not the outlaw. Good luck.

Rob

That's interesting, I know one of my vcr's, a Panasonic AG-1980 has a built in TBC you can enable or disable but my cheap vcr's I didn't believe have them. At any rate, in my case none caused rolling problems. Perhaps newer model vcr's now have TBC's standard in them, I'm not the pro but just passing on my experiences having the same preamp/receiver.

Rob