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Isn't this a step backwards for AVSForum? - Page 3  

post #61 of 145
Thread Starter 
Alebonau = utterly utterly hopeless. I try to reword what I've said when people don't understand it, but trying to word what I've already said in a fashion that you will understand, after i've tried so many times, is tilting at windmills. You don't "get" the scientific method and you probably won't ever. That is in fact the problem with every single one of your posts, including the posts to your other "comparison tests." When I went to school, our labs broke down as: Observation, hypothesis, methods(the experiment), data, and conclusion. You've got observation and conclusion but nothing in the middle. Your grade? F-.

But anyway, don't feel bad... I don't "get" small talk or non verbal interaction and probably won't ever because I have aspergers syndrome, but I admit it openly and say "oh well." Like a blind person has better practiced hearing, my social foibles are compensated for by a more advanced sense of logic. It doesn't make me friends but it does help me solve real problems. In short, I'll agree that I'm a jerk if you agree that you're not a problem solver.

Dave, however, I thank for providing his perspective on POSSIBILITIES as to what makes for a "perfect" CD player. I forgot the fact that because SPDIF doesn't work both ways like a PC CD-ROM sending its data does, you can't really ever "perfectly clock it." Whether this is audible or not, I leave as an excercise to anyone who understands the scientific method. Dave mentioned some other stuff that actually has been indicated by people earlier in the forum, but nonetheless it is true as a "possibility" for an audible difference, even if its also been agreed that the likeliness for it being audible to be low.

Posts from people like alebonau who respond to a request for logic, reasoning, and "just the facts, ma'am" with a test that he claims is scientific but has provided no methods for serves no purpose other than to aggravate me. You can have your opinion, but 2 pages into a thread started by someone who was trying to get MORE than another "me too" answer is not the place to add it.

I thank those who added to the discussion and I give no thanks to those who chimed in with their explicitly unappreciated "me too" stories, but clearly what needs to be said has already been said 15 different ways. Those with no rational bone in their body will never get it, and people like me who have to be rational to make up for our other downfalls got it before I even opened the thread.

This can is kicked, so if somebody wants to lock up the thread, I say go for it.
post #62 of 145
please

http://home.comcast.net/~schiz/masterlock.jpg

thx
post #63 of 145
cowclops after reading your last post I am now without doubt.

Given all the repeated requests and with still nothing sensible from you, I can only assume there is no basis behind what you say. No mention of comparisons you've done, no mention of what equipment you've done comparisons on and no mention of what equipment you've compared or how you did the comparisons and the conclusions it lead you to. And ofcourse given the complete lack of basis behind your points denigration and belittlement is all you seem to have in response.

as far as your original question "Isn't this a step backwards for AVSForum? " yes this thread and the way you post, the way you patronise and demean posters is indeed a step backwards for AVSForum !

I will now leave you.... as in the words of another poster ...as the man of the road yelling on his soapbox with nothing to back up his claims. Wish now I hadn't wasted my time stopping by to have a chat and good luck with this thread and hope you get whatever it is you are hoping to get out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim
yes indeed.
post #64 of 145
a mind is like a parachute, it has to be open to work................zappa
post #65 of 145
Hitchhiker: You heard of this thing, the 8-Minute Abs?

Ted: Yeah, sure, 8-Minute Abs. Yeah, the excercise video.

Hitchhiker: Yeah, this is going to blow that right out of the water. Listen to this: 7... Minute... Abs.

Ted: Right. Yes. OK, alright. I see where you're going.

Hitchhiker: Think about it. You walk into a video store, you see 8-Minute Abs sittin' there, there's 7-Minute Abs right beside it. Which one are you gonna pick, man?

Ted: I would go for the 7.

Hitchhiker: Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk.

Ted: You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?

Hitchhiker: If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from "A" to "B".

Ted: That's right. That's - that's good. That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 6-Minute Abs. Then you're in trouble, huh?

[Hitchhiker convulses]
Hitchhiker: No! No, no, not 6! I said 7. Nobody's comin' up with 6. Who works out in 6 minutes? You won't even get your heart goin, not even a mouse on a wheel.

Ted: That - good point.
post #66 of 145
Thread Starter 
I'm not the one making the claims. You are. The burden of proof is on you. That isn't having a closed mind, thats applying logic to the situation.
post #67 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops

While you can say that "digital is digital, it getse there or it doesn't" and as a blanket statement that isn't entirely true, if the discussion is strictly on the transports themselves then in fact, digital IS digital. When you add the dac to the mix, the quality of the signal matters, but a proper dac is going to be buffering and reclocking the signal anyway, which means that a transport with imperfect timing won't degrade the sound quality of the signal.

this is what i dont understand. if i read this correctly i thought it is a claim that imperfect timing wont degrade sound quality and this has not been backed up by the poster.

audiophiles or someone with good ear and musical senses who can hear differences are not necessarily scientists and capable to explain phenomenon in a scientific logical way but their opinion should not be disregarded.
post #68 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpu8088
audiophiles or someone with good ear and musical senses who can hear differences are not necessarily scientists and capable to explain phenomenon in a scientific logical way but their opinion should not be disregarded.
True. Afterall, I believe most audiophiles are NOT scientists. I've been interested in high-end audio since I was a kid. And not once have I ever bought a piece of equipment based solely on "provable"specs.
post #69 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
I'm not the one making the claims. You are. The burden of proof is on you. That isn't having a closed mind, thats applying logic to the situation.
From what I've read, you're the one that came in here making all of the initial claims. So I'd say the burden of proof is on YOU. Come on, show us all your proof that all CD players sound the same.
post #70 of 145
Thread Starter 
The opinion is not discounted because I value my own opinion over everyone else's. The opinion is discounted because it was tainted by bad experimentation practices. The people who are most positive that minute changes to their system are audible are invariably the peple who produce the least convincing argument or no argument at all. When setting out to prove something in science, even if you are sure your results are true, you must also provide your methodology so that it can be determined whether your conclusions are sound or erroneous.

The same people who don't understand why I seem to have a vendetta against something that is supposedly "only an opinion" are the people who constantly make ludicrous claims and rarely to never make any attempt at providing the evidence to back up their claims.

"Your $4,000 cd player is no more effective than the $100 best buy special" is not a sentiment anyone who just spent $4,000 ever wants to hear, so they tend to be defensive about the hardware itself without considering a methodology to determine that such hardware was the undeniable cause for the change in the signal. Even if you are "sure" something changed, you have to ask yourself whether it was the sound coming out of your speakers that changed or any number of other factors that have nothing to do with whether your CD player says "Sony" or "Rotel" on it.
post #71 of 145
Thread Starter 
My claim isn't that you can't hear the difference. My claim is that no one on here can prove they hear a difference, if for no reason other than the fact that you all probably failed science class as kids.
post #72 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
My claim isn't that you can't hear the difference. My claim is that no one on here can prove they hear a difference, if for no reason other than the fact that you all probably failed science class as kids.
your claim i believe is that you do not hear any difference in cd transports and dacs.

may be you are assuming your hearing capabilty is the same as me or us?

so now you claim that no one on here can prove they hear a difference. if so our medical doctors will tell us so when we do a hearing check up. this has nothing to do with passing science classes as kids
post #73 of 145
I haven't had to wade thru so much pointless BS pontificating in a long time. :p Thanks, guys, for the entertainment! :rolleyes:

For the 2 main protagonists here, by all means, keep keyboarding to your heart's content! You will not convince each other, and waste a lot of time doing it.

As far as "going backwards" is concerned, having a non-HT, music only thread is refreshing. Bring it ON! I'm even enjoying seeing turntables & LP's discussed :eek:

ss9001
post #74 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001
As far as "going backwards" is concerned, having a non-HT, music only thread is refreshing. Bring it ON! I'm even enjoying seeing turntables & LP's discussed :eek:

ss9001
ABSOLUTELY!
post #75 of 145
absolutely

20 years ago we compared digital source with analog and claiming vinyl like

now are we doing the same? getting closer? the same? or worse?

the logic is if vinyl analog has not progressed while digital sources have it means there are differences of sound from digital sources. if not then digital sources of 20 years old would be the same as today's equipment :-)
post #76 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
My claim isn't that you can't hear the difference. My claim is that no one on here can prove they hear a difference, if for no reason other than the fact that you all probably failed science class as kids.
And you can't prove there isn't a difference. See, I can play that game too.
post #77 of 145
Thread Starter 
Nor do I have to. The burden of proof lies on those who make the positive claim. That, however, is a formality of logic and arguing who has the burden of proof is stupid (because it is is not debatable, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the positive claim).

The primary underlying point to all of this is that the human brain is a complicated thing. It can easily fabricate data when presented with unclear data, even when it is doing it totally subconsciously. Because of this and because of the non-triviality of producing a scientific test that minimizes your brain's subconscious effort to fabricate percieved data, MOST CONVENIENT TESTS ARE NOT VALID, and all valid tests are inconvenient by necessity. This thread exists because people are resorting to convenient tests rather than valid tests.

Yes, what sounds good to use a subjective thing, but all subjective tests must also have some root in objective facts even if those facts aren't immediately clear. Consider this:

If you said red was your favorite color, I wouldn't argue because I already KNOW that favorite colors are purely an experience/perception thing. Red is your favorite color because for some reason you like light that has a wavelength of around 650nm better than light of any other wavelength. There is no "why" because it is a subjective opinion, but the objective facts remain that red is not green because red light has a longer wavelength than green light and our eyes/brains can easily perceive the difference.

Now consider somebody who says they like 651nm light better than 649nm light. The reality is that if you were presented with two light sources, one of 651nm and one of 649nm, without being told which one is which, you would not be able to even reliably pick which light corresponds to which wavelength. So how can you prefer one wavelength of light to another extremely close wavelength of light when the difference in wavelength is too low to be reliably discernible?

I feel the exact same way when people say they can hear differences that are extremely likely to be less than the threshold of hearing, or at least less than the threshold of reliable hearing. Since, if the induced distortion/noise/whatever objective fact we may not even know about yet is less than the minimum amount of distortion/noise/whatever required for it to be audible, then the difference also can not be audible.

Alternately, consider old rickety people who claim they can feel weather in their bones. While there may be a correlation between changing weather patterns and feelings old people get in their worn out joints, the correlation is not solid enough to use old people as weather predicting devices. This is why weather stations have doppler radar, barometers, thermometers, wind guages, relative humidity sensing machines, etc etc etc. Relying on an unlikely source of data is going to eventually come back to bite you in the ass. And for people who have spent thousands of dollars on CD players, my opinion is that you like getting bitten in the ass and asking for more.

Extend the weather allegory to the actual subject at hand, and you understand why the people who build this equipment (people like me, for example) use oscilloscopes and function generators and other sorts of analysis tools rather than just hiring an audiophool to stand around and say whether the design is good or not.

Or you don't understand because you aren't capable of understanding stuff that can't be spelled out step by step in fewer than three sentences.

The reality is there are two sides to this argument. One is right, and one is wrong and stubborn. Just like the unwashed masses ended up being wrong when Copernicus said that the earth revolved around the sun, I suspect the same faith-over-reason situation exists today where rich-joe-sixpack with just enough understanding of audio to come to erroneous conclusions and enough money to buy such status-symbol hardware are avoiding traditional reasoning in order to make sure their $4,000 CD player remains a status symbol and never becomes a bottle of snake oil.

It is my perogative to advance both the facts and useful application of the facts. If your perogative is to advance pseudoscience and unverifiable faith-based claims then that is you have every right to be wrong and stubborn, but for me being stubborn would get in the way of actual problem solving so I avoid being stubborn when I can.
post #78 of 145
cowclops,

There u go man, wasting time on that keyboard again. I can't wait for your book to come out. Probably will have no chapters, just endless sentences, ad infinitum. I for one won't be buying....

I think u made your point by now, so maybe try writing something different each time you post. It's getting painful...

If they gave out medals for puffery, you'd be a candidate.

ss9001
post #79 of 145
Thread Starter 
Applied logic isn't a matter of opinion and doesn't change at the whim of the reader, no matter how bored they may be.

If what I said isn't interesting to you to really think about, then you'll probably never learn to be a good scientist, and you probably have no place in responding with a post that serves no purpose to say that you're not interested in what I have to say.
post #80 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
Applied logic isn't a matter of opinion and doesn't change at the whim of the reader, no matter how bored they may be.

If what I said isn't interesting to you to really think about, then you'll probably never learn to be a good scientist, and you probably have no place in responding with a post that serves no purpose to say that you're not interested in what I have to say.
Actually, I'm a chemical engineer by degree, studied at one of the premier tech universities in the US, Case Western Reserve Univ. in Cleveland, and have worked in the water treatment specialty chemical industry for 25 yrs. I now do some programming, and helping our reps with technical issues

So much for YOUR analytical skills!

And no, I don't care about your opinions, or anyone is who so obviously dogmatic and egotistical. You've certainly worn out the topic you started, basically criticising anyone who disagreed with you. Since YOU really aren't interested in an reasonable exchange of opinions, who is being intellectually disingenious here?

You seem only to want to hear those you agree with you since that feeds your ego. It's fascinating to see how much you can pontificate! :rolleyes: again.

ss9001
post #81 of 145
Thread Starter 
Actually, what you just said proves why i stopped going to college. The fact that you could actually get both a degree and a job in an engineering field without having an understand application of applied logic.

To which I already know you are going to reply, "HAHA YOU'RE A COLLEGE DROPOUT." Except I don't feel the need to explain all the gory details behind it since its not like it was a cheap mistake and relevant to the discussion. I'll leave it at the fact that "you must go to college to be good at what you enjoy" is a fallacy people who did graduate from college use to elevate them above the people who don't want to and can't pay for the same experience. I don't look down on people who did succesfully complete college, but it really is more of a 4 year test to see how good of an employee you make than it is a 4 year test to see how much you can learn about a subject. I'm sure the fact that you DID graduate from college proves that you would make a more desirable employee at large engineering firm than I would, but history shows that some of the most important ideas in history have come from unpopular jerky self aggrandizing "nut jobs."

Between the two of us, in 10 years you will still probably have a good middle class job that you will surely work hard at. For me in 10 years, I will probably either be living in a dumpster somewhere or I will have had the luck to say the right thing in the right place at the right time to the right people and maybe become famous for it. Assuming that I will be succesful would make me sound like I'm full of ****, but accepting the fact that people like me tend to either be extremely succesful or extreme washouts (as history shows) is just reality.
post #82 of 145
cowclops (or shall we say cowpies),

When I read your rantings, I'm reminded of a quote from a famous Clint Eastwood movie: "a man's got to know his limitations"

I hope you make it, really. But with your attitude toward dissenting opinions, I kinda doubt it. BTW - I've also had a successful technical sales career in all those yrs in the chemical industry, so I've had to deal with plant engineers and plant managers of all types, personalities, and ego factors, so what you expoused from your very first post on, I recognize is pure, self-aggrandizing BS. Oh, yes, I will not be working my "middle class" job in 10 yrs, since in 5, I will be retired. Continuing my hobbies of diving in underwater caves, audio/video entertainment, and traveling with my wife.

Your move.....

ss9001

PS - see if you can reply without writing an dissertation. Use some of that applied logic on which you claim to be an expert.
post #83 of 145
Thread Starter 
I know what my limitations are... I don't know how to follow social convention. If you cringe when you read my posts, its probably because you're bothered that I don't write in a manner that naturally appeals to the majority. If you don't understand my message because it isn't worded in a manner you understand, the best I can do is trial and error to find a way to say it that you may understand. Thats why I've said a lot of the same stuff multiple times without actually just recopying my posts, the hope that I will eventually come up with an explanation that people widely understand.

If my limitation is that I have a hard time explaining a factual idea in terms the unwashed masses can understand, then I think that this thread has proven it and then some. On the other hand, if you're lucky enough to weasel your way to the top of a fortune 500 company, being coherent is optional since you can always just hire people that take your incoherent ramblings and convert it to something the wrench turners can understand.
post #84 of 145
Cowclops,
Very good. You managed to say what you meant in 2 short paragraphs...there's hope.

Mission accomplished...I'm moving on to more productive threads where real things pertaining to audio are being discussed.

You and your ego are safe....I am not worthy to be in your radiance.

ss9001
post #85 of 145
Eh, I haven't read hardly any of this thread, as I consider the bickering to be a complete waste of time for someone to read... Anyway, I would like to say that a dedicated forum for music transports has been sorely missing on AVS, and I am very glad it's here.

I'd also like to add that I'd even recommend a sub-forum dedicated to discussion of turntables and vinyl.
post #86 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdwizard
heres a good one for you Cowclops:

http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/index1.html
from people who do reviews on speaker cable and power conditioners.

that's like finding a blog claiming that Elmer Fudd is behind the impending doom we're about to suffer from secret world-government organized conspiracies, and calling it credible.
post #87 of 145
When I turn on my audio system and listen to music I hear sounds coming from my speakers. Through out all the years that I've been into audio I've always did it that way. Whenever I've upgraded or changed components I always hear the differences and changes whether good or bad through my speakers. I have never once hooked up my system to measuring equipment. What fun would that be? I want to listen to it not see how it measures.

When ever I watch movies or videos I always watch them on my TV. Through out the years of being into video I've always done it that way. Whenever I purchases a new DVD player I would put in a DVD that I'm familiar with and see what differences there were in picture quality whether good or bad. I have never once put a test disc in my DVD- player to see how it measures. I want to watch movies not test patterns. What fun would that be?

On second thought I could have saved myself a ton of money by not buying a big screen TV and six speakers. I could be using a small inexpensive monitor just to see how well my player does on patterns and I could have invested in some test equipment to see what kind of signal my preamp and power amp puts out. When I got tired of that I could go outside and watch my grass grow.

I really don't understand whats wrong with trusting ones own eyes and ears when evaluating an Audio/Video system. I put my system together to satisfy my senses through my eyes and ears.
post #88 of 145
Some people get so bogged down by technical specifications that they lose all ability to appreciate the end result for what it is. I refuse to let myself get caught up in that and just allow myself to appreciate the sound. Specs can give you a basic guideline for how a unit might register to your ears, but it's not gonna be the reason you choose that player - it's more the way the sound clicks in your heart and soul. Try as you might, but you can't dehumanize music and the way it affects every person uniquely by reducing it to a bunch of numbers. I'd rather be the Kirk than the Spock.
post #89 of 145
Thread Starter 
But its not about the numbers. Its about "real" differences vs "imagined" differences.

Prove that the improvement you heard by upgrading your equipment was caused by the upgrade in equipment and not A) pure subconcious fabrication, B) something you inadvertadently did in the process of hooking up the new equipment (like moving the speakers and not moving them back to quite the same position... very small changes in speaker position can equate to BIG changes in sound quality), or C) wishful thinking.

It doesn't have to objectively "measure well" to sound good, but if there is no objective difference to correspond to your percepted difference, then you are subconsciously misleading yourself. If you post on this forum with the same "evidence" then you are only feeding the fire of misconceptions.
post #90 of 145
instead of listening to fm radio thru your tuner/amplifier/floor standing speakers one can always revert back to using a portable radio'

i bet 100% you can pass abx/double blind tests unless your hearing is impaired

placebo effect? not likely in this situation

how this test sound?
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