DVDO VP30 and Panny Plasmas..Anyone getting NR?  

I'm having an iScan HD+ here with a 50PHD7 with 1:1 pixel mapping at 50Hz over HD15 analog connection. As far as I know these are the facts about both PHD7 and PHD8:

- 1:1 pixel mapping with 60Hz is possible via both analog and HDMI
- 1:1 pixel mapping with 48Hz and 50Hz is possible, but only over analog connection

Tweaking the iScan HD+ to get 1:1 pixel mapping was a bit tricky for me. First I wasn't able to achieve it. Then I've played with the custom timing settings. I had to change one of these settings to a much higher value. Then the image suddenly went black and resynchronized. After that I could decrease the value a bit again. So basically just having the correct timing values doesn't necessarily help. There are some values where you have to cross a certain treshold to force the display to resynchronize.

I've not tried the VP30, but I guess it will behave more or less identical to the HD+.

Not in themselves. It depends on the source format, see below.

No stairstepping. But you do get studdering if you choose the "wrong" refresh rate. Basically the refresh rate should fit to your source material. NTSC is usually 60Hz (or rather 59.98Hz or something like that). However, movies were originally shot in 24fps. If you have a good scaler, it can reproduce the original 24fps from the 60Hz NTSC signal. In that case you'll get the best result by connecting your scaler with 48Hz to the Panasonic. However, that won't look good at all for television stuff which is really 60fps and not 24fps. In PAL land we have everything at 50Hz. Movies are speeded up to 25fps, so 50Hz still fits for us. So we have it a bit easier here. Television and movies can be handled with just one refresh rate. It should be noted, though, that by far most people (probably something like 99%) in NTSC land watch 24fps movies in 60Hz and are used to the slight motion judder and have no problems with it at all.

60Hz should be fine. If you can set up your devices to do either 60Hz or 48Hz, depending on the source format, then that's even better. But that's probably not absolutely necessary, except if you're a total image quality freak... :)

I only have 50Hz timings here, so that won't help you much, I guess. The default timings are not far off. You just need to play with the timings to make the screen resync once, then you probably have it right. It's not too difficult once you know how: Just take each timing parameter, write down the old setting. Then greatly change the parameter. If you see the Panasonic resync, you probably got it right. If changing this one parameter doesn't make the Pany resync, just change it back to the old value and try the next timing parameter. I don't remember which parameter I had to change. I think it was a "V" parameter, not a "H" parameter.

But first I'd suggest that you try to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping with the default parameters. It might already work for you. Who knows?

Because 50Hz 1:1 pixel mapping is only possible via analog connection. And by far most of my sources are 50Hz.

I've not even tried digital (I have no digital board), because I knew from these forums (and the UK forums) that digital is no go for 50Hz 1:1 pixel mapping. I've been told that with a good scaler and a good cable there's not much of a difference between analog and digital connection. Digital might be ever so slightly sharper, while some people claim you have some more noise in shadow detail when using digital. But others don't agree. Well...

To be honest I've not really done much of a comparison, so I can't really tell. I've simply set it up with 1:1 pixel mapping and was happy with it. What I noticed is that when I was going from analog out to SDI out I got noticably better results. Also I *think* when going from the iScan Pro (which can't scale at all) to the iScan HD+ with 1:1 pixel mapping, the picture quality was noticably better. But I didn't switch back and forth, so it was just a vague impression. I hadn't had the iScan Pro running for long, so don't take me too serious here.

I have achieved 1:1 with my 50" 8UK using the VP30 using the DVI blade at 60 HZ. I was not successful using the HDMI blade, however. I used the timings in the NR thread I believe. They were almost identical to the timings posted for the 7 series, with the exception of one of the horizontal timings, but you will be able to figure it out.

For me, and perhaps I was doing something wrong, the improvement was not significant enough for me to keep the unit, even with the SDI modded player. Again, I may have had the rest of the set-up wrong, but I did have the timings correct to achieve 1:1 mapping.

I don't have a DVDO, rather a Crystalio 1, but I think that any good external video processor, such as a DVDO, will make a significant difference in the PQ compared to the Panny internal processing. The trick is that you have to get it 1:1 mapped to bypass the Panny processing. Also you do not want to do any scaling or deinterlacing on the signal that you send to the VP. That means you either have to have an SDI modded DVD player or one of the few DVD players that sends out a 480i signal via HDMI (and I think there is still some controversy about whether these DVD players actually do any processing of the 480i signal).

It is here.

I don't know about others, but I'm having a great deal of difficulty determining if and when I have acheived 1:1. I tried Stoomonster's method with the Hor/Ver test patterns, but nothing seems definitive. Any advice, tricks, sympathy? ;)

You have my sympathy, I've had some trouble, too. I'd suggest that you concentrate on this test pattern first, called "hor. lines" on my HD+:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
..................................................
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
..................................................

There every second line is painted. How does this test pattern look on your display? Is it a perfectly even gray area without any color shades and without any darker and lighter sub areas? With 1:1 pixel mapping I have a perfect even gray screen and I can see each 2nd line black and each 2nd line white. If I move away just one step from 1:1 pixel mapping, I have horizontal bars which are light gray and other horizontal bars which are a darker shade of gray. Also on some horizontal bars I can clearly identify black/white lines, while on other bars I only seem to see an all gray pixel mess.

Again, I don't have a DVDO so my test patterns are different and I have had some doubt if I got perfect 1:1 because the vertical pattern locks in without a doubt but the horizontal is a bit iffy. I was relieved of most of my doubt because other "expert" users of my VP (C1) and display have assured me that they have experienced the same issue. Still, in the end, as always but something a lot of us tend to forget, it is your perception of the PQ that should be paramount. In my case, the PQ improved so much that even if I don't have absolutely pefect 1:1 it's really so much better than before I tried to get 1:1 that I'm basically ok with my configuration. So, has your fiddling improved the PQ significantly?

This may be helpful Madshi. I've only looked at the patterns from viewing distance to get rid of the "rainbows" that stoomonster referred to. I found that the range of settings that produce what appears to be a uniform gray screen from 9 feet is to wide. I will try again looking from closer to the screen.

Thanks......

Hi Jack... Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen significant difference in my 1366x768 setting with tweaks vs. 720p. Maybe that means I haven't acheived 1:1 yet. Wish there was a clearer dependent variable to obtain.

I believe I used Oferlaor's timings for the 7 series 50". My HBack was 294 as I recall. When you get 1:1, it is really apparent using the test patterns.

I know the feeling but it's true that you will know when the test pattern snaps in. Not very scientific and when people told me that, I asked what the hell it meant, but It's like a sudden insight; it just hits you and doesn't matter how far or close to the screen you are. You are basically adjusting the horizontal and vertical size of your monitor. I did it from within the service menu because you have a finer level of control than from the user level. You only would have to fiddle with the timings in difficult cases.

I have a 6th gen panel and I was advised that it's much easier to get 1:1 via RGBVH--I don't know for sure but I think that applies to the newer gens too at least if the choices are RGBVH or DVI. It seems that Panny's implementation of DVI on that blade is not very good. It is very picky and there is noise in the lower IRE. I haven't heard anything from someone who knows about the HDMI blade if Panny did a better job. As mentioned, Ofer did it via HDMI but he's a guru so that doesn't necessarily mean the average guy will have an easy time of it.

Oh, one other thing. If you think you have 1:1 but the size of the active picture is not exactly correct when you send the NR from your VP, you can play around with the resolution that you send to the PDP. In other words you might not send it exactly the NR. You can play around with slightly more or less pixels. In my case, I got 1:1 or close when sending the NR of the PDP but the picture did not fill out the full possible pixels (there were black bars on the horiztonal and vertical of a few pixels width) so I had to go back and increase the resolution I was sending from the VP by 4-8 pixels and then re map for 1:1.

Which parameters in the service menu are that? Can you give me a short description on how to do that? Thanks!

Madshi,
I don't think we are supposed to talk about service menu adjustments here. I'll PM you.

Please PM me as well :)

Thanks

I've just reset my user size/position controls to "normal" and changed everything in the service menu. As far as I can see, there's no basic difference. The ranges are wider in the service menu. But the effect is the same. The settings in the service menu don't seem to be finer to me. Anyway, it's nice to have the user controls normalized now. Thanks, Jack D!

Well you might be correct that the service adjustments are not finer but I'm not so sure and, yes, the ranges are wider. In any case, the other advantage is that I have always hated the user level adjustments as you have to keep moving the level or the bar disappears and you go back to the full menu, which gets in the way of the picture or pattern you are trying to calibrate. At least that is the way it is on 6th gen. Don't know if they fixed that in later gens.

After calibrating the h and v size I also worked with the overscan screen (on the C1, I assume there is one on the DVDOs as well) from within the service menu for the same reasons.

The main reason why I like the service mode adjustments is that nobody will ever accidently change them. So I have my 1:1 pixel mapping parameters carved in stone now.

And yes, if I understand your description correctly, then it's still the same way in 50PHD8, I believe.

Did you have to fiddle with the timings or just the V and H size? You are using RGBVH. I wonder if it is straightforward with HDMI. I'll be picking up a 50PDH8 in the next couple of months so I'm interested to know the details. I guess you are using 50hz, right?

Yes, RGBVH with 50Hz. I had to fiddle with the timings. I used Vesa timings for H and self found timings for V. Don't know why, but achieving 1:1 pixel mapping with my brand new 50PHD8 was more difficult for me than with the previous 50PHD7.

For true 1:1 mapping, you should be feeding exactly native rate and both vertical and horizontal line patterns should render perfect alternating dark/light one-pixel rows. Overscan should be exactly zero. You then adjust input sizing to give the equivalent of around 1-2 percent overscan or whatever you prefer.

So, it sounds like setting the VP to 1366x768 and no tweaks. Overscan to zero. Then work with the hor and vert size settings on the display (not the VP) until hor and vert line test patterns get smooth. Then adjust input size.

Is that it? When folks talk about timings, that just means tweaking the 1366x768 settings in the output menu, which we shouldn't do?

That sounds like a great start. I've heard the default timings work, but whether you'll get 1:1 right off the bat (or at all) I don't know. It's possible you'll have to experiment with different timings to get 1:1.

I'm pretty sure Ofer has done it.