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DVDO VP30 and Panny Plasmas..Anyone getting NR? - Page 2  

post #31 of 194
2/1/06 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik
So, it sounds like setting the VP to 1366x768 and no tweaks. Overscan to zero. Then work with the hor and vert size settings on the display (not the VP) until hor and vert line test patterns get smooth. Then adjust input size.

Is that it? When folks talk about timings, that just means tweaking the 1366x768 settings in the output menu, which we shouldn't do?
If you are lucky you can get 1:1 just by adjusting the H and V size on the PDP once you are sending the NR from the VP. If you are unlucky, you have to fiddle with the H and V timings in the VP, such as front porch, back porch, etc.

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post #32 of 194
2/1/06 at 8:45pm
Thread Starter 
Ofer did it on a Panny 50 via DVI not via HDMI and not on a 65".

As far as fiddling with the panny timings...well that isnt something I would feel comfortable doing. The settings on the VP are there to tailor to the plasma, not the other way around but, thanks for the suggestion, maybe I will try it and write down the facory settings.
post #33 of 194
2/1/06 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Ofer did it on a Panny 50 via DVI not via HDMI and not on a 65".

As far as fiddling with the panny timings...well that isnt something I would feel comfortable doing. The settings on the VP are there to tailor to the plasma, not the other way around but, thanks for the suggestion, maybe I will try it and write down the facory settings.
I had an exchange with him a while back and IIRC he did manage it with HDMI, but I could be mistaken. Maybe I can find the thread.

You don't fiddle with the Panny timings, you fiddle with the timings that the VP is sending to the Panny.
post #34 of 194
2/1/06 at 10:55pm
I did succeed to do it through HDMI and through the 65" model.

I have the timing numbers "somewhere" (my workload is crushing my brain at the moment), so please look it up. Most likely I left the timing numbers in the native rate thread.
post #35 of 194
2/2/06 at 12:51am
I think RichB also got native rate done through HDMI on his 65PHD7. Not 100% sure, though.
post #36 of 194
2/2/06 at 6:37am
These may be some dumb questions, but has anyone emailed or called Panasonic and asked them to provide the timings? Is there anyway to do a reverse reading from the EDID info output if you hookup a PC and use Powerstrip? Why can't one of the scaler mfg's contact Panasonic to obtain this info and provide to their customers who request it?

Panasonic is by far the most popular PDP on AVS. There is so much info available for everything Panasonic (FAQ this, FAQ that, but no official NR Timings?), they must be a way to get the official timings and put this nonsense to rest once and for all.

I own an NEC 61XM2 that RichB & I purchased around the same time before he decided to move up to the Panny 7UY 65". Before we had even purchased the NEC's we contacted NEC and they sent us a spreadsheet with the offcial NR Timings. No guessing, no trial and error, it just worked. I do not understand Panasonic. Why is this a big secret. At my request, NEC sent timing info for all their PDP's directly to Lumagen so they could support their customers. Panasonic should be able to the same with DVDO or whoever requests it. I guess they do not consider this Technical Support.

I also own a Panny 7UY 37" that's in use in a bedroom, so no VP, and I have been hesitant to think about purchasing other larger Panny's for use in the main room because of their lack of official support related to NR timings.

Sorry to jump in here, but there are so many of these threads regarding NR and Panasonic PDP's that it needs resolution and to be added to Bruzzi's Panny FAQ.
post #37 of 194
2/2/06 at 6:50am
Thread Starter 
Well, there you go. Seems like I was wrong and Ofer DID get it to work via HDMI and on a 65 Panny to boot. And there YOU go DVDO, a DVI blade is not needed to get NR into the panny, the HDMI blade seems to work as well.

So, now for the timing settings....I searched the NR thread and the only posts from Ofer are for a 50" Panny. Any links Ofer, or perhaps a repost in this thread when you get a chance?

Thanks
post #38 of 194
2/2/06 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pciav
These may be some dumb questions, but has anyone emailed or called Panasonic and asked them to provide the timings? Is there anyway to do a reverse reading from the EDID info output if you hookup a PC and use Powerstrip? Why can't one of the scaler mfg's contact Panasonic to obtain this info and provide to their customers who request it?

Panasonic is by far the most popular PDP on AVS. There is so much info available for everything Panasonic (FAQ this, FAQ that, but no official NR Timings?), they must be a way to get the official timings and put this nonsense to rest once and for all.

I own an NEC 61XM2 that RichB & I purchased around the same time before he decided to move up to the Panny 7UY 65". Before we had even purchased the NEC's we contacted NEC and they sent us a spreadsheet with the offcial NR Timings. No guessing, no trial and error, it just worked. I do not understand Panasonic. Why is this a big secret. At my request, NEC sent timing info for all their PDP's directly to Lumagen so they could support their customers. Panasonic should be able to the same with DVDO or whoever requests it. I guess they do not consider this Technical Support.

I also own a Panny 7UY 37" that's in use in a bedroom, so no VP, and I have been hesitant to think about purchasing other larger Panny's for use in the main room because of their lack of official support related to NR timings.

Sorry to jump in here, but there are so many of these threads regarding NR and Panasonic PDP's that it needs resolution and to be added to Bruzzi's Panny FAQ.
Good questions. I tried to get the info on my 6th gen ED panny from the local Panny rep where I am currently posted (South Africa) but he was useless. I do know that my Crystalio 1 had pre-programmed settings for one of the Pannys but, unfortunately, it wasn't mine--one of the 50" HDs.

Interesting about NEC. And it does make sense that Panny should provide these settings to users or at least to the makers of VPs. It sure would make life easier for so many of us. You'd think that the manufacuturers of the VPs would have the most economic interest in providing the settings as more people would see what VPs can do for PQ if it were easier to get 1:1 and then, presumably, more VPs would be sold.
post #39 of 194
2/2/06 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Just wondering if it is possible to get the Panny plasmas (8UK's) to accept native rate of 1365x768 from a VP30. I don't care if it goes via HDMI or by Component, I just want to know if the Pannys accept NR via external scalers.

If so, then there must be someone out there who has the correct timing settings for these plasmas in conjuction with an external scaler like the VP30.

Does anyone have these answers or will I be the guinea pig?

If you have answers please post, I have searched high and low to no avail.
I've had Panny series 5 plasma working at native 1366x768 resolution at 50Hz/60Hz/48Hz over analogue RGBHV (not Component) with DVDO scalers since HD came out ... VP30 works a treat too, and with BNC connections (on plasma and scaler) gives outstanding PQ, the test patterns are pixel perfect.

StooMonster
post #40 of 194
2/2/06 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
I've had Panny series 5 plasma working at native 1366x768 resolution at 50Hz/60Hz/48Hz over analogue RGBHV (not Component) with DVDO scalers since HD came out ... VP30 works a treat too, and with BNC connections (on plasma and scaler) gives outstanding PQ, the test patterns are pixel perfect.

StooMonster
Yes but some people are interested in the digital connection. For you guys it makes more sense to go RGBVH because of the 50hz issue. I'm currently doing that too but only because the DVI blade is harder to do and probably not as good PQ even if you do get it. I'll be keen to try with the 50 8th gen I'm going to buy in a few months with HDMI.

I'm curious to know if anyone has had enough experience with the HDMI blade to know if it was better implemented by Panny than what they did with the DVI blade. In other words is it less picky about accepting NR and did they fix the noise in the lower IRE problem.
post #41 of 194
2/2/06 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster
I've had Panny series 5 plasma working at native 1366x768 resolution at 50Hz/60Hz/48Hz over analogue RGBHV (not Component) with DVDO scalers since HD came out ... VP30 works a treat too, and with BNC connections (on plasma and scaler) gives outstanding PQ, the test patterns are pixel perfect.

StooMonster
The big problem here is you can't output an HDCP encrypted signal over analog. You're forced to input analog over component, convert to digital for processing, and then back to analog, then back to digital at the display. Furthermore, component outputs for HD signals may not be around much longer so even this may not be possible in the not to distant future.
post #42 of 194
2/2/06 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
I'm curious to know if anyone has had enough experience with the HDMI blade to know if it was better implemented by Panny than what they did with the DVI blade. In other words is it less picky about accepting NR and did they fix the noise in the lower IRE problem.
I have the 7 series HDMI blade and have not seen any low IRE noise problems. It's clean at a distance and has the standard moving pixels look that plasmas use when seen up close. I don't have the DVI blade to compare it to though.

Edit: I should add for the record that I have an HD+ running native rate into a 50PHD7UY through an HDMI card. The built-in 1366x768 settings didn't work (got a black screen) so I had to make a few adjustments to get an image. Once I did that it was easy to get NR, which I did by using the vertical and horizontal test patterns. It is obvious when you have it as the patterns are completely uniform and clean.

I normalized the Panasonic display to factory settings first and made all size and location adjustments in the HD+ (using the single pixel wide boxes test pattern, what ever that is called :)). That way the factory settings on the Panasonic can be used.
post #43 of 194
2/2/06 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spa
I have the 7 series HDMI blade and have not seen any low IRE noise problems. It's clean at a distance and has the standard moving pixels look that plasmas use when seen up close. I don't have the DVI blade to compare it to though.

Edit: I should add for the record that I have an HD+ running native rate into a 50PHD7UY through an HDMI card. The built-in 1366x768 settings didn't work (got a black screen) so I had to make a few adjustments to get an image. Once I did that it was easy to get NR, which I did by using the vertical and horizontal test patterns. It is obvious when you have it as the patterns are completely uniform and clean.

I normalized the Panasonic display to factory settings first and made all size and location adjustments in the HD+ (using the single pixel wide boxes test pattern, what ever that is called :)). That way the factory settings on the Panasonic can be used.
That is good news. So maybe there is hope for an all digital connection, at least for those of us who are 60hz users. I guess the 8 series HDMI blade might work for the 50hz people.

Which adjustments did you have to make? You mean in the timings?
post #44 of 194
2/2/06 at 12:19pm
Thread Starter 
I was informed by a friend at panasonic that the only difference between the 7 HDMI blade and the 8 HDMI blade is that the 8 can do PAL and the 7 cannot. Other than that he said they are identical.
post #45 of 194
2/2/06 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
I was informed by a friend at panasonic that the only difference between the 7 HDMI blade and the 8 HDMI blade is that the 8 can do PAL and the 7 cannot. Other than that he said they are identical.
Yeah and, if i'm not mistaken, that means 50hz.
post #46 of 194
2/2/06 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
That is good news. So maybe there is hope for an all digital connection, at least for those of us who are 60hz users. I guess the 8 series HDMI blade might work for the 50hz people.

Which adjustments did you have to make? You mean in the timings?
I had to turn on advanced user mode and then adjust front porch, sync and back porch. There are a lot of possible values that would result in NR. I used values that produced native rate (step one) and that matched the factory settings of my display (step 2) such as image shift.
post #47 of 194
2/2/06 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
Yeah and, if i'm not mistaken, that means 50hz.
Correct, but not at native resolution. It's already been tried. According to the experts in the UK forums native rate at 50hz is not possible with the 8G HDMI blade. It only adds 1080i50 and 720p50.
post #48 of 194
2/2/06 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Correct, but not at native resolution. It's already been tried. According to the experts in the UK forums native rate at 50hz is not possible with the 8G HDMI blade. It only adds 1080i50 and 720p50.
Too bad. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that prob.

In general, I can't understand why it's so hard for these companies to make blades and panels that accept native resolution and why it would be so hard to do it at 50 as well as 60hz. There must be some sort of engineering issue, no? Why else?
post #49 of 194
2/3/06 at 12:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
Too bad. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that prob.

In general, I can't understand why it's so hard for these companies to make blades and panels that accept native resolution and why it would be so hard to do it at 50 as well as 60hz. There must be some sort of engineering issue, no? Why else?
Well, PHD7 with 7G HDMI blade didn't even support 720p50 and 1080i50! If you compare the list of what input resolutions each of the commercial blades accepts, you'll see that the analog blades accept all you could ever wish for. But the digital blades (especially DVI and HDMI) only support a very small subset. Why is that? Personally I think Panasonic's DVI/HDMI department is just extremely lame.

LG done it much better in this area. One custom installer in the UK forums said jokingly, if you put your finger in any LG plasma input, the LG display will show your heartbeat. In other words: You can throw at the LG plasmas whatever you want, it'll find a way to show it on screen somehow. I think Panasonic should hire LG's HDMI technicians.
post #50 of 194
2/3/06 at 5:05am
Thread Starter 
After spending 4 days fiddling with the VP30, I have decided to send it back to the dealer, here is my short review:

PROS:
Great GUI (graphic user interface)
Nice variety of inputs/outputs
Front Panel display is a necessity and looks clean
Scaling is vastly superior to internal panny scaler
Remote commands have many discrete/direct controls

CONS:
Inability to obtain native rate on a 65-8UK via HDMI*
No customer service return phone calls or emails
No non linear stretch modes for 4:3 material (yet)
Some settings in "USER" just wouldnt stick and reverted to default (V front V back)

I have come to some conclusions, much like I did several years ago when I reported that the fujitsu Panels could not accept NR via an external scaler, which is still the case.

1- The VP30 timing settings are different from the HD+. I BELIEVE that using an identical panel the timing settings from an HD+ and VP30 will differ. Perhaps not on all displays but, on the more difficult ones. I say this because there has yet to be a single reported successful NR to a 8UK Panny via a VP30 through HDMI. All of the reports I have read are from HD+ users..that includes Ofer and Spa and others via analog and perhaps DVI.

2-The 8UK panasonics differ in some way from the 7UK panels and/or the 7 HDMI blades differ in some way from the 8 HDMI blades in that timing settings vary wildly with different panels and blade combos.

If and when ANYONE can get NR on a 65" 8UK via HDMI through a VP30 (not HD+) I will go back and buy it again to see if it works on my panel. Until such time, I don't know how it can be done or IF it can be done but, I could not do it.
post #51 of 194
2/3/06 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Well, PHD7 with 7G HDMI blade didn't even support 720p50 and 1080i50! If you compare the list of what input resolutions each of the commercial blades accepts, you'll see that the analog blades accept all you could ever wish for. But the digital blades (especially DVI and HDMI) only support a very small subset. Why is that? Personally I think Panasonic's DVI/HDMI department is just extremely lame.

LG done it much better in this area. One custom installer in the UK forums said jokingly, if you put your finger in any LG plasma input, the LG display will show your heartbeat. In other words: You can throw at the LG plasmas whatever you want, it'll find a way to show it on screen somehow. I think Panasonic should hire LG's HDMI technicians.
It's a pity. All this is still why I'm stubbornly going to do whatever it takes to stick with SDI out whenever possible. I know there are ways around HDCP even if you start with an HDMI or DVI out signal but I still think SDI is the way to go until, somehow, someday, Panny gets it together with its digital blades.

Pity that LG seems to have it together in that way. Who would ever want to buy an LG PDP? The first PDP I bought, out of total ignorance, was an LG and I sold it within weeks for a big loss (long story, not worth telling). It was lousy.
post #52 of 194
2/3/06 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
If and when ANYONE can get NR on a 65" 8UK via HDMI through a VP30 (not HD+) I will go back and buy it again to see if it works on my panel. Until such time, I don't know how it can be done or IF it can be done but, I could not do it.
OK so maybe you couldn't get NR but you couldn't find a setting that was close and it didn't improve PQ even if it wasn't exactly 1:1? 4 days of struggle isn't very much. :D
post #53 of 194
2/3/06 at 7:53am
Thread Starter 
Jack, as I stated in my mini review, the improvement is PQ was noticeable even though I was unable to get NR. But, I don't feel that the cost justified the benefit when you take into account that at ANY resolution other than NR, the Panny is still using its INTERNAL scaler to do some of the processing.

If I am going to pay 2k for an external processor I want IT to do the proceesing and to completly bypass the crappy internal scaler of the panel.

Since I could not get that to occur, I didn't feel the benefit was worth the cost and combined with the loss of the stretch modes and constant aspect ratio tinkering, I felt the least expensive, most convenient and overall best way for me to go was to return it.

Believe me, I want desperately to bypass the Panny scaler, it is horrible but, until I can get a digital signal NR I will wait on the fence to be certain someone can do it.
post #54 of 194
2/3/06 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by notanewbie
Jack, as I stated in my mini review, the improvement is PQ was noticeable even though I was unable to get NR. But, I don't feel that the cost justified the benefit when you take into account that at ANY resolution other than NR, the Panny is still using its INTERNAL scaler to do some of the processing.

If I am going to pay 2k for an external processor I want IT to do the proceesing and to completly bypass the crappy internal scaler of the panel.

Since I could not get that to occur, I didn't feel the benefit was worth the cost and combined with the loss of the stretch modes and constant aspect ratio tinkering, I felt the least expensive, most convenient and overall best way for me to go was to return it.

Believe me, I want desperately to bypass the Panny scaler, it is horrible but, until I can get a digital signal NR I will wait on the fence to be certain someone can do it.
Well the other way to go is SDI out at source and then you can use RGBVH in to the Panny. Pretty easy to get NR that way.
post #55 of 194
2/3/06 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D
Well the other way to go is SDI out at source and then you can use RGBVH in to the Panny. Pretty easy to get NR that way.
I know DVD players are SDI moddable, but can this also be done with STB's, i.e. OTA tuners, D* boxes, cable boxes?
post #56 of 194
2/3/06 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat
I know DVD players are SDI moddable, but can this also be done with STB's, i.e. OTA tuners, D* boxes, cable boxes?
Good question. I will have to deal with that when i move back to the States in a few months. I think I remember someone somewhere on this forum saying he had an SDI modded STB but maybe that was wishful thinking. I guess that is a big dilemma.

Still I wouldn't want to do without an external VP. So even if I can't use it for TV, I would want it for DVDs. Again, the other option is to explore ways to get around HDCP. I know they exist.
post #57 of 194
2/3/06 at 11:30am
STBs can be fitted with SDI. The video signal from the MPEG decoder must be ITU BT656 compliant (8-bit video data with embedded sync + 27MHz video clock) -- if you've got that, you're good to go. To my knowledge, there are only a few STBs that fulfill this requirement: the Humax 5xxx series, the SKY/Pace Digibox and the XSat 410.
post #58 of 194
2/3/06 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlblufan
STBs can be fitted with SDI. The video signal from the MPEG decoder must be ITU BT656 compliant (8-bit video data with embedded sync + 27MHz video clock) -- if you've got that, you're good to go. To my knowledge, there are only a few STBs that fulfill this requirement: the Humax 5xxx series, the SKY/Pace Digibox and the XSat 410.
Isn't the problem with STBs that you have to use the one your cable company provides? I think where I'm moving the cable company uses the Moto 6412 for HDTV. I suppose you would have to do the mod with HD-SDI. I wonder if it is easy to find someone who will do that sort of mod. I certainly wouldn't know how to do it. The mod package is not just the same one you use for DVD players, is it? So then you have to find someone who will make the mod as well as install it?
post #59 of 194
2/3/06 at 12:03pm
Both of my STB's are LG (D* sat tuner and DVD/OTA tuner combo). The best thing for most of us will be to use an HDCP compliant interface and right now this means HDMI/DVI.
post #60 of 194
2/3/06 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat
Both of my STB's are LG (D* sat tuner and DVD/OTA tuner combo). The best thing for most of us will be to use an HDCP compliant interface and right now this means HDMI/DVI.
That is not exactly the point, however. I have no problem with using HDCP compliant devices as I have no desire to rip digital content. The problem is that if one cannot get a 1:1 mapping from an external VP to the panny digital blades, as has been discussed in this thread, then one either has to dump the VP or avoid HDCP encryption at the signal source. Hence, the discussion on SDI mods on STBs.
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