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Dali speakers - Page 103

post #3061 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

The Helicons have a significant imaging advantage over the Mentors. I would not trade my Helicons MK2's for a Mentor ever. I bought a pair of Mentors for surround duty and regret
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

The Helicons have a significant imaging advantage over the Mentors. I would not trade my Helicons MK2's for a Mentor ever. I bought a pair of Mentors for surround duty and regret it.

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences with the Dali speakers.

I will be picking up the Helicons tomorrow morning.

Many thanks for all your advice.


Mark
post #3062 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky301067 View Post

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences with the Dali speakers.

I will be picking up the Helicons tomorrow morning.

Many thanks for all your advice.


Mark

I do agree but partially. This is a complicated one, for sure. I do not like the artificial sounding lower frequencies of the helicon 400Mk2.

The mentor 6 and 8 are doing much better here but the Helicon 400mk2 do have a more natural sounding mid range. For me, I would not buy the 400Mk2 and prefer the Mentor 6 or better: the 8. If you have the money, try the 800mk2.
Edited by abdon - 5/26/13 at 11:54am
post #3063 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by abdon View Post

I do agree but partially. This is a compicated one, for sure. I do not like the artificial sounding lower frequencies of the helicon 400Mk2.

The mentor 6 and 8 are doing much better here but the Helicon 400mk2 do have a more natural mid range. For me, i would not buy the 400Mk2 and prefer the Mentor 6 or better: the 8. If you have the money, try the 800mk2.

What dou you mean by artificial lower frequencies, I have listened to the 400 mk 1's and the lower end is nothing short of stunning, so much so, that you would think that there where high end sealed subs built into them!

I will also be running a JL Audio F113 Fathom sub with the Helicons, mostly for movies.

Thanks

Mark
post #3064 of 3437
Geeze, I just googled Dali Helicon 400MKII review and read say the first two published reviews, from respected sources. They seem to have somehow completely overlooked the "artificial sounding lower frequencies".

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/308dali/
"...The Helicon Mk.2's strong suits are clean, deep, nonmechanical bass down to around 30Hz; extended, airy, smooth, grain-free high frequencies without excessive etch; and an enormous spatial presentation that wows at every listen."


http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dali-helicon-400-mk2-loudspeaker-tas-205/
"The Helicon’s presentation consistently felt just right. It is the only speaker I’ve auditioned to date at this price point that I find suitable for realistic reproduction of orchestral music. It lays down a solid orchestral foundation without cheating the orchestral power range of 100Hz to 400Hz. Despite the modest woofer size, it was able to generate a reasonable sense of slam and satisfying levels of lower-midrange punch. And despite the array of drivers on the front baffle, there was plenty of imaging magic on display..."
post #3065 of 3437
I didn't have the 400's but owned the 800's and have listened extensively to the 300's and would have to say that the "lower frequencies" always sounded great.
But as always YMMV.
marky I hope you're not put off by one negative opinion.
Get the Helicons and enjoy would be my advice.
post #3066 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I didn't have the 400's but owned the 800's and have listened extensively to the 300's and would have to say that the "lower frequencies" always sounded great.
But as always YMMV.
marky I hope you're not put off by one negative opinion.
Get the Helicons and enjoy would be my advice.

Hi, I'm not put off by the negative comments, I have auditioned the 400MK1's and love them to bits with music and AV " the best I have listened to date" the 400'S deliver everything that I am looking for with music and AV.

I have been considering the new M&K / MP 150 mk2's, after a good bit of searching it looks like I will be unable to get them in the white for a good few months! I'm also not so sure that they are a jack of all trade speaker, with music and movies!

My heart is telling me I am making the right choice with the 400Mk2's accompanied with the C200 Centre MK2 for home Theatre duties.
Edited by marky301067 - 5/26/13 at 1:42pm
post #3067 of 3437
I have read many reviews and I do not trust them for a 100%. Of course, there must be some truth in it. But how many reviews tell us that "these speakers are best value for our money"? Then lots are. How to choose between all these fine speakers? The only answer is to listen with your own ears.

I am a big fan of the 300mk2, and I really want the 800's (waiting for a chance) . But i prefer the Mentor 8 over the helicon 400mk2. And I prefer the 300mk2 over the Dali mentor monitor. I have listened to the 800 's in a shop, and I prefer the 800 above the Mentor 8.

With artificial lower frequencies I mean that the whole sound image of the 400Mk2 is not homogeneous to my ears. The 400Mk2 is a real low frequency speaker, but it must be squeezed out of a small cabinet with only 2 woofers. I would have preferred less bass in the 400mk2 to make it more homogeneous. Just my humble opinion. Sorry to bother anyone. It is not negative: it is my listening experience and an honest advise to Marky.
post #3068 of 3437
abdon, honest opinions are always welcome here.
AFAIK, no one is bothered by your opinion, at least I'm not.
post #3069 of 3437
^+1 Milt I consider all this fun interesting friendly hobby discussion.

Abdon, my take is that these Heli 400 MKII speakers have been recently carefully redesigned and measured to specs by acoustic experts. They are well-reviewed by respected sources-though like yourself, I don't make a purchase decision simply based on reviews or specs. Nonetheless, based on info from multiple sources, I believe they are good sonically, including in the bass region, despite no big woofers, especially considering their price range. One experienced source told me that with the new scanspeak drivers, the performance of the Heli 800MKII begins to rival the Euphonia MS4. But again, I cannot add any MKII experience of my own to the discussion.

Your 8" woofs in the Mentor cabinet sound quite pleasing to you. They have become your default reference. Given the degree that the Heli actually sounds different, you may not prefer it.
But there are other factors at play in subjective evaluation of speakers. Have you had the opportunity to do a side-by-side A/B as I recommended to the OP? As I'm sure you know, one's experiences with different models on different days in different rooms with different gear will often lead to conclusions based on psychoacoustic factors that can complicate conclusions about design/performance differences.
post #3070 of 3437
@milt99 thx. English is not my native language, it's difficult to understand some nuances.

Good to know it's a friendly discussion.

Yes, I had the chance to listen to the Mentor 8 and the Helicon 400mk2 at the same time in the shop: they are kind of equally priced.

But based on what I've heard back then, I would not tell potential buyers that the helicon 400mk2 is a better speaker then the Mentor 8, just like that. It might depend on acoustics and personal favor.
post #3071 of 3437
abdon, you're fine, pal.
No worries.
You are obviously well familiar with Dali speakers.
It would be a pretty boring place if we all had the same views, no?
A lot of it it is how it is stated.
Your command of English is better than many native speakers around here.
No pun intended.wink.gif
post #3072 of 3437
Any suggestions as to a good "music" sub to pair with Epicon 6 speakers. They are driven by Bryston 4BSST2, BDA-2, BDP-2 and BP-17 and the setup is just for music.

As I posted earlier, my Epicons are in a large room (30' x 15', with a 14' vaulted ceiling), with a hardwood floor, lots of glass, bare walls and open spaces along one side--lousy acoustics. Therefore, the sound is on the bright side and, more importantly to me, not much bass.

The size of the sub would need to be towards the small size (less than 20" x 20" x 20"), if possible.
post #3073 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

Any suggestions as to a good "music" sub to pair with Epicon 6 speakers. They are driven by Bryston 4BSST2, BDA-2, BDP-2 and BP-17 and the setup is just for music.

As I posted earlier, my Epicons are in a large room (30' x 15', with a 14' vaulted ceiling), with a hardwood floor, lots of glass, bare walls and open spaces along one side--lousy acoustics. Therefore, the sound is on the bright side and, more importantly to me, not much bass.

The size of the sub would need to be towards the small size (less than 20" x 20" x 20"), if possible.

Look at Power Sound Audio They are making some great subs at reasonable prices.
post #3074 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

My Parasound Dealer has a 5250V.2 for me to play with next week. I can tell you how it stacks up then. But in the mean time I do put my money where my mouth is and this combination sounds wonderful. Also do make sure your amp is plugged directly in the wall and not any power conditioner.
A51 + 3x A23's biggrin.gif


Doctor Mark, I have the Helicon 400MK2'S all set up with the C200MK2 and Dali Phantom ikon in walls, what's your thoughts on the Parasound HCA 1206 High Current THX 6 Channel Power Amplifier to drive the speakers, over the Halo & New Classic Amps?

I'm thinking to use the Parasound HCA 1206 To bi-amp the front three.

Specs:
SPECIFICATIONS

Continuous Power Output
> 135 watts RMS x 6, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 8 Ω, all channels driven
> 200 watts RMS x 6, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 4 Ω, all channels driven
Continuous Power Output - Bridged
> 350 watts RMS, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 8 Ω, each bridged channel, 3+4, 5+6
Current Capacity:
30 amperes peak, per channel
Slew Rate:
> 130 V/µsecond
Frequency Response:
12 Hz - 120 kHz, +0/-3 dB
Total Harmonic Distortion
< 0.07% at full power
< 0.03% typical levels
IM Distortion:
< 0.04%
TIM:
Unmeasureable
Dynamic Headroom:
> 2 dB
Interchannel Crosstalk:
> 75 dB at I kHz > 56 dB at 20 kHz
Input Impedances
50k Ω per channel, without looping inputs 1/2 to Ch. 3/4 or Ch. 5/6
25k Ω per channel, if looping inputs 1/2 to either Ch. 3/4 or Ch. 5/6
17k Ω per channel, if looping inputs 1/2 to both Ch. 3/4 and Ch. 5/6
Input Sensitivity:
1.0V THX Reference Level
S/N Ratio:
> 118 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted
Damping Factor:
> 800 at 20 Hz

Thanks

Mark
post #3075 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

Any suggestions as to a good "music" sub to pair with Epicon 6 speakers. They are driven by Bryston 4BSST2, BDA-2, BDP-2 and BP-17 and the setup is just for music.

As I posted earlier, my Epicons are in a large room (30' x 15', with a 14' vaulted ceiling), with a hardwood floor, lots of glass, bare walls and open spaces along one side--lousy acoustics. Therefore, the sound is on the bright side and, more importantly to me, not much bass.

The size of the sub would need to be towards the small size (less than 20" x 20" x 20"), if possible.
That's an awesome system, sorry you're not gewtting the bass you want.

Here's my thoughts:
1. Your preamp does not have bass management nor sub EQ capability so the sub should have sophisticated electronic signal procesing capability so you can properly EQ and blend the bass with your mains.

2. Two hi quality smaller subs are better than one bigger sub for several reasons.

3. Velodyne DDplus series has very accurate, sealed subs with sophisticated electronics perfect for music. Two DD10plus subs would be an exc choice for your room, are very compact and unobtrusive. See here:
http://velodyne.com/subwoofers/digital-drive-plus-series/digital-drive-plus-10.html

I have two DD10s in a slightly smaller room and they are awesome.

4.There are several options for how to connect the subs to your system and how to EQ/balance and blend them. A simple arrangement would be to use whatever line level outs (XLR or RCA) you're not currently using from your pre and run L to one sub and R to the other, then run the Velo autosetup program that uses their included mic. You'd then begin manually adjusting levels and EQ to your taste so the Dalis are perfectly complemented.


There is an active Velo support thread on this forum and their CS is extremely responsive.
post #3076 of 3437
Marky,
I know you didn't ask me but the Parasound Halo amps are far better than the regular Parasound line in my experience.
I think the 400's deserve an amp of the Halos caliber.

I would also forego bi-amping, negligible difference if any for the channels required.
You'd be better off with the 3 channel Halo A-31 or the 2 channel A-21 with a smaller monoblock for the center as it doesn't have the power requirement of the 400's.
That gets your rack a little crowded with the extra amp.

Unsure of your budget, if the Halo amps are too much new, try Audiogon, there are decent deals to be had there. from the right seller.

Plus see this thread about the HCA 1206:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=432229
post #3077 of 3437
SoundofMind, I had a feeling that you would come through yet again with very helpful advice ...thank you for your feedback regarding my search to add a sub(s) to my stereo setup!
post #3078 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Marky,
I know you didn't ask me but the Parasound Halo amps are far better than the regular Parasound line in my experience.
I think the 400's deserve an amp of the Halos caliber.

I would also forego bi-amping, negligible difference if any for the channels required.
You'd be better off with the 3 channel Halo A-31 or the 2 channel A-21 with a smaller monoblock for the center as it doesn't have the power requirement of the 400's.
That gets your rack a little crowded with the extra amp.

Unsure of your budget, if the Halo amps are too much new, try Audiogon, there are decent deals to be had there. from the right seller.

Plus see this thread about the HCA 1206:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=432229

Thank you for the link Milt, I think I might hold out for the Halos that you have suggested or something different.
post #3079 of 3437
I have tried quite a few amps and have found three that bring out the best of the Helicon line and up.
Parasound Halo's. I have heard a couple of the other Parasound amps, but the Halo is where it's at.
Gemstone 7 channel - out of production. I understand Gemstone "might" go back in Amp production.
Sim Audio - service is horrible. I bought one 7 channel amp "Aurora" of theirs and when it broke it was in service for 7-months. Canceled the purchase and went to Parasound.
post #3080 of 3437
I don't think the parasound halo amps are all that, try some different amps like marantz, Arcam, primare, just my opinion.
post #3081 of 3437
I just noticed that marky and nucky are in Scotland so there may be some different brands to check out.
The A32 looks like a very nice amp never heard it but it is a lot more money than the Halo.
AFAIK, Primare is not very widely distributed in the US but looked at the A32 on an English site for 3700 GBP and an A21 for 2299 GBP.

Basically the A21 retail price in England is the same number of GBP as USD here in the US.
Yikes, that's essentially 3500 USD.
I didn't shop around so I'm sure you guys know where the deals are.
Edited by Milt99 - 6/8/13 at 11:23am
post #3082 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

SoundofMind, I had a feeling that you would come through yet again with very helpful advice ...thank you for your feedback regarding my search to add a sub(s) to my stereo setup!

Os, you're most welcome, glad to be of any small assistance. Of course I am no expert, just one hobbyist, so if I were you I'd think about starting a thread here on the forum about your missing bass, perhaps something like "Large room and weak bass-are subs the answer?" Provide all the info you posted here and you should get some interesting responses from folks with more expertise than I have. I have done this on a couple of topics and learned some useful stuff. A local sound expert to come out and evalutae would be another option.

Oh, in looking again at your pics of your space, I think I see a large permanent opening to another open space. If that's the case, that adjacent space iseffectively part of your room from the perspective of the low freqs, making the space even harder to fill with bass.

The thing is, we're shootin in the dark without any measurements of the room's acoustics and the effect of speaker and sub placement on the sound at MLP. OmniMic is a fairly easy-to-learn system and is under $300. It would allow real-time measurement so you'd know where you stand and you'd know what each progressive step takes you.

But it's entirely reasonable to start with just one Velo DD10+ or DD12+ and run both R&L into it. That may be all you need and you could alsways add a twin. And the built-in SMS measure/EQ sytem in the Velodyne sub will provide some useful measurements.
post #3083 of 3437
SoundofMind, you may consider yourself a hobbyist, however, you are at a professorial level compared to my limited knowledge smile.gif

I especially appreciate your pointing out the limitations of my preamp when considering a subwoofer(s).

Just hooked up a Sonos Play 5 speaker in my office (17' x 18'). That one speaker produces a more pronounced bass sound than I am getting with my Epicon 6 setup. I played the same Mark Knopfler track on both. I'll next play the Sonos in the same room as my Epicons.

Had a sales rep from Sound Organization visit my home regarding the bass issue a couple of weeks. Very nice guy and I appreciated his time and effort. He repositioned the speakers from where the paid installer from the vendor had placed them, but the speakers continue to lack warmth/bass.
post #3084 of 3437
Try a Lyngdorf RP if your room is large and with lots of glass and hard floors
post #3085 of 3437
^Interesting idea, abdon.

I think that you are suggesting that the room's liveliness/xs high end may contribute to a perceived lack of warmth and anemic bass. That could well be a factor, in addition to trying to fill a cavernous space with a couple 5" woofs. Without acoustic measurements it's hard to know.

DSP RC (digital signal processing room correction) is a very useful tool. I've put up lined curtains over the windows and a padded area rug to help tame my room. Then, in addition, I use Audyssey MultEQXT32 with an Audyssey Pro kit (a less expensive RC option than RP) to get a more even low freq response that yields tight, punchy bass.
post #3086 of 3437
@SoundOfMind. Yes. Maybe the Lyngdorf in combination with a good AMP. Also I recommend the lyngdorf because its correction range is 20-20Khz, where most normal DSP-s correct from 20-500-600Hz. Oswego could need the 500+ Hz because of his hard room and Oswego mentioned the Epicons are bright-sounding. Maybe due to reflections in the higher frequencies?

I would prefer your solution (Audyssey MultEQXT32 with an Audyssey Pro kit (a less expensive RC option than RP) to get a more even low freq response that yields tight, punchy bass)) but as far as I understand, Oswego has this hard room, no curtains, etcetera.

Dali and NAD make a good combination. My advise would be to try the M3 for the Epicons. The M3 is not that expensive, or maybe the digital M2 (more expensive, more power). In the BENELUX DALI and NAD are often combined by dealers (and buyers).

BTW: Next week my brand new Helicon 800mk2 will arrive. My Mentors 8 will be sold (I hope to find a buyer)
Edited by abdon - 6/5/13 at 1:11am
post #3087 of 3437
^Congrats! It's doubtless exciting to await some fine new speakers. As I've mentioned, I "heard" from an experienced Dali person that those MKII800s are quite impressive indeed.

As for Os, you may be on to something with DSP, as the DSP in the Velo subs would not be able to EQ the high freqs.

Of course placement of the Epis and the MLP in the room is crucial, but usually there are some practical and aesthetic constraints in a non-dedicated listening area. Os has had two experts out and apparently they've accomplished little by moving the speakers a bit by ear while accomodating the current layout in the room. Like my fam rm/HT/stereo listening room, Os' room literally screams out for room treatments. I did not have an expert evaluate my room and I used no formal treatments but I was able to improve SQ considerably using informal natural absorbtion/diffusion of curtains, rug, etc. I was able to "treat" several of the first reflection points in that way, decreasing slap echo and xs brightness. I adjusted placement of the FR/L speakers away from corners and the back wall to avoid boomy bass and then fine adjusted placement and toe-in (very slight) for best soundstage and imaging. Hi freqs are sensitive to reflection, especially as we don't listen near-field so we're hearing lots of reflected hi freq sound-that's what gives a sense of soundstage depth, width and sense of "space".

On the other hand, low freqs excite room modes, causing dips and peaks in the low freq response variably throughout the room. The good news is that fundamentals below 80 Hz are not well-localizable so one has considerable freedom with sub placement. The harmonics and higher fundamentals of music are produced from the FR/L, creating a sense that the upright bass is playing from right in front of you, even if the subs are off to the side- or even behind you! So I placed my subs out from the corners and while measuring real time FR sweeps at MLP, moving the subs so they produced a more even response as they fired together, lessening the modal excitement. Opposite midwall placement seems to work pretty well in my room. Then I use Audyssey EQ to further smooth the FR like icing on a cake. The Audyssey stand-alone version similar to RP is the Sound Equalizer, often avail under $1K-
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/equalizers-audyssey-sound-equalizer-multeq-xt-in-excellent-condition-for-sale-2013-06-01-miscellaneous-55016
It's an option for folks with hi-end analog systems who need to use DSP to tame the room.

For Os' huge space (and remember the acoustically connected adjacent area as well) I think he will need subwoofage. So for ex. with 2 Velo DD10+subs, we're adding 2 very accurate 10" drivers, tremendous clean wattage to drive and built-in EQ for the bass.
I'm not sure any more amplification beyond the renowned Bryston 4BSST2 amp can help the Epis. They arecutting edge speaker technology but IMO there's only so much those little drivers can do.
Edited by SoundofMind - 6/5/13 at 4:56am
post #3088 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Congrats! It's doubtless exciting to await some fine new speakers. As I've mentioned, I "heard" from an experienced Dali person that those MKII800s are quite impressive indeed.
(..)

Very exciting.

Too bad you're far away: I have never listened to the Euphonias and I am very curious: here, people live close to each other (I mean small distances), and between some people it's common to visit each other to share the love and passion for music and setups (and bring audio-components with us to compare. This way I have listened to many (many) setups and met lots of people.

The bryston AMP is good. Ofcourse. My advise about the NAD is not to recommend a better amp, but to give a good alternative. Almost same price range (M2).
post #3089 of 3437
^+1 A wonderful thought.
We have a Southeast Michigan Audiophile Club and have monthly meetings for that purpose. smile.gif
post #3090 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

I have tried quite a few amps and have found three that bring out the best of the Helicon line and up.
Parasound Halo's. I have heard a couple of the other Parasound amps, but the Halo is where it's at.
Gemstone 7 channel - out of production. I understand Gemstone "might" go back in Amp production.
Sim Audio - service is horrible. I bought one 7 channel amp "Aurora" of theirs and when it broke it was in service for 7-months. Canceled the purchase and went to Parasound.

I think I have managed to source the A51 Halo at a good price, I will keep you updated.
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