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Dali speakers - Page 104

post #3091 of 3437
I just ran the tone test (3 times) with my Radio Shack digital sound level meter equidistant between the speakers (speakers are 8' apart) and about 3' in front of the speakers.

100 hz = 80 dB
80 hz = missing tone
60 hz = 90 dB
50 hz = 89 dB
40 hz = 90 dB
30 hz = 74 dB
20 hz = 72 dB

Do these results suggest anything regarding my sense that bass is lacking from these speakers in my 15' x 30' room?

Do I need to run the test in a different way?

Do these results confirm, as many of you have mentioned, that I need a DSP RC (digital signal processing room correction) or do I simply need a speaker with larger and/or more woofers?
post #3092 of 3437
^Yikes! 80 hz = missing tone


It's great that you've started taking some measurements. Your results do suggest that at that location, you have a severe dip in that freq region that could certainly account for a perceived lack of bass. 80 Hz is the fundamental of the low E string on guitar (40 is the low E on a bass, an octave lower).

The gradual drop off from 40 to 30 to 20 is expected with most speakers and does not really concern me. But if you have a severe bass suck-out at 80 at MLP the problem may not respond to simple DSP. This gets pretty technical, but here's a basic explanation based on my limited understanding.

The wavelengths assoc w/ the freqs around 80 Hz may be interacting with the room to form a "null", a spot where the soundwaves cancel themselves, in the spot you're measuring- and likely in other locations as well. Of those locations, the MLP is most crucial. A null affecting SQ there cannot be fixed with larger woofs and/or bigger amps. You may well have to try other techniques to "fix the room". For ex, you could move the speakers, or the MLP, so you're no longer seated in an area with such uneven bass. You could install bass traps in the corners to absorb the xs energy causing the null. Or you could try carefully placing subs while measuring, finding precise locations that smooth the bass/cancelling the null by generating 80 Hz waves that start from different locations.

But all your diagnostics and solutions will benefit from your using an automated, more accurate measurment system (easiest is OmniMic, about $300). The manual graphing method is cumbersome and can be prone to error. For ex., the meter should really not be held in the hands for this. And the measurement should be done at MLP at seated ear level, as the acoustics varies considerably from spot to spot in the room including on the height axis. So I suggest you repeat your test in several locations around the MLP and report back.

I again encourage you to start your own dedicated thread in the "Audio theory, Setup and Chat" area of the forum. Or you could just summarize your findings and post that on the Audyssey thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1
especially as you're considering DSP as a fix. There's lots of helpful folks there with more expertise than I measuring and correcting acoustics.
post #3093 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

I just ran the tone test (3 times) with my Radio Shack digital sound level meter equidistant between the speakers (speakers are 8' apart) and about 3' in front of the speakers.

100 hz = 80 dB
80 hz = missing tone
60 hz = 90 dB
50 hz = 89 dB
40 hz = 90 dB
30 hz = 74 dB
20 hz = 72 dB

Do these results suggest anything regarding my sense that bass is lacking from these speakers in my 15' x 30' room?

Do I need to run the test in a different way?

Do these results confirm, as many of you have mentioned, that I need a DSP RC (digital signal processing room correction) or do I simply need a speaker with larger and/or more woofers?

Clarify what you mean by missing tone. You don't have the 80 hZ sine wave test tone? I can't believe 100hz and 60 hz would be so loud and some room void null suck would be that effective at eliminating 80 hz. But 80 is very important to how the bass sounds.
post #3094 of 3437
Thanks, SoundofMind.

I meant to say that the 80 hz tone was missing from the file that I downloaded to test the speakers. Therefore, I was unable to run a test at that level.

Great suggestion. I am going to pick up something like the OmniMic and will likely then look for a subwoofer and call it a day.
post #3095 of 3437
^Whew! Good plan.
post #3096 of 3437
there is also a compensation chart that you need to use with the Radio Shack meter as it is not spot on on certain frequencies.
Your measurements taken in comparison to each other look really flat to 40 hz.
Obviously a serious drop at 30 hz...
post #3097 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky301067 View Post

Hi, I'm not put off by the negative comments, I have auditioned the 400MK1's and love them to bits with music and AV " the best I have listened to date" the 400'S deliver everything that I am looking for with music and AV.

I have been considering the new M&K / MP 150 mk2's, after a good bit of searching it looks like I will be unable to get them in the white for a good few months! I'm also not so sure that they are a jack of all trade speaker, with music and movies!

My heart is telling me I am making the right choice with the 400Mk2's accompanied with the C200 Centre MK2 for home Theatre duties.

Do you like your Helicons? Just wondering smile.gif
post #3098 of 3437
Quick update...

I have done a bit of whining in this forum about the lack of bass with my Epicon 6 speakers.

Over the weekend, I took them to a dealer to demo them against a pair of Aerial Acoustic 9 speakers.

The Aerials had a bit more body and bass, but I found the Epicons to be a cleaner.

Bottom line, the lack of bass in my room, as many of you suggested, is due to room acoustics; nothing wrong with the speakers.
post #3099 of 3437
^Excellent. You are a dedicated hobbyist!

And I disagree with your characterization, I didn't see any whining. Just a very valid concern on your part and a concerted effort to troubleshoot.

Carry on!
post #3100 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

Quick update...

I have done a bit of whining in this forum about the lack of bass with my Epicon 6 speakers.

Over the weekend, I took them to a dealer to demo them against a pair of Aerial Acoustic 9 speakers.

The Aerials had a bit more body and bass, but I found the Epicons to be a cleaner.

Bottom line, the lack of bass in my room, as many of you suggested, is due to room acoustics; nothing wrong with the speakers.

I would think about anything you put in the room will fail you for bass.
post #3101 of 3437
^If by "anything" you mean switching in other model speakers with more bass (Epicon 8, Euphonia MS5, etc), I agree.

But IMO Os is on the right track as the next step is to get better FR response measurements around MLP so we know if there is simply lack of bass due to the huge space or if there are certain bass freqs being sucked out by room modes. This will tell us if there are one or more low freq modal dip, as well as the exact freq and exact severity.

It is a huge space so 10-12" woofers driven with high wattage will likely be needed, so 2 good subs may well be part of the solution. But if there are significant freq dips, subs will have to be placed while attending to measurements taken at MLP (a "measured sub haul") which will strategically add low freq/long wavelength energy from those specific locations to break up the room modes at MLP causing the dip(s). DSP room correction may also be helpful.
post #3102 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^If by "anything" you mean switching in other model speakers with more bass (Epicon 8, Euphonia MS5, etc), I agree.

But IMO Os is on the right track as the next step is to get better FR response measurements around MLP so we know if there is simply lack of bass due to the huge space or if there are certain bass freqs being sucked out by room modes. This will tell us if there are one or more low freq modal dip, as well as the exact freq and exact severity.

It is a huge space so 10-12" woofers driven with high wattage will likely be needed, so 2 good subs may well be part of the solution. But if there are significant freq dips, subs will have to be placed while attending to measurements taken at MLP (a "measured sub haul") which will strategically add low freq/long wavelength energy from those specific locations to break up the room modes at MLP causing the dip(s). DSP room correction may also be helpful.

The latest version of REW (Room EQ Wizard) has a neat little "Room sim" to play with. smile.gif

Insert your room dimensions, choose how many subs you have, click and hold mouse on sub(s) or your head and move them around. Watch what happens on the graph.



Have fun! smile.gif
post #3103 of 3437
The vendor, who demoed my Epicon speakers with his Aerial speakers, believes that if I place a sub or two against the same wall against which my Epicons are placed that the room will undermine their low end performance as well...just as you suggested above.

He is suggesting that I go with an Aerial SW 12 sub (he thinks that one MAY do the trick), which he would optimally position and calibrate in my room for me. I mentioned the Velodyne Digital Drive 12+ and Paradigm Sub1--both of which he sells, but he believes that the Aerials will meld better with the Epicons. Personal choice, I guess?

Before going this route, I will first pick up some good room sound testing equipment to determine if the room lacks bass or if the bass frequencies are being muted.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions!
post #3104 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

The vendor, who demoed my Epicon speakers with his Aerial speakers, believes that if I place a sub or two against the same wall against which my Epicons are placed that the room will undermine their low end performance as well...just as you suggested above.

He is suggesting that I go with an Aerial SW 12 sub (he thinks that one MAY do the trick), which he would optimally position and calibrate in my room for me. I mentioned the Velodyne Digital Drive 12+ and Paradigm Sub1--both of which he sells, but he believes that the Aerials will meld better with the Epicons. Personal choice, I guess?

Before going this route, I will first pick up some good room sound testing equipment to determine if the room lacks bass or if the bass frequencies are being muted.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions!

Hi Os,

To all my rather limited knowledge about acoustics and all that jazz, but I've never heard about a room that lacks bass! Your secret must be somewhere else. cool.gif
post #3105 of 3437
Lars announced that the Megaline has been discontinued. The factory has 3 pair left and that's it. Looks like there "Might" be something coming to replace it. The announcement was on facebook this morning.
post #3106 of 3437
To DALI lovers...

The place I work at (in Los Angeles) is refreshing some of our demo product at special pricing to celebrate Independence Day week. PM for details, but pricing is in store only. We will make it worth your while if you are in the LA area.

Epicon 6 pr Walnut
Helikon 400 pr rosenut

All are current version/series with full warranty.

Brian
post #3107 of 3437
As i mentioned, I've bought the Helicon 800mk2. I have them for 3 weeks now and all I can say is that they are really amazing and a big step forward compared to the Mentor 8.. Not only in imaging but also in the details and character. I truly do not know any speaker up to 7500 euro that I like more - and i have heard many.

Don't get me wrong, the Mentor 8 is an amazing speaker, and a good competitor in it's league. I hope to find a new owner and make him happy as I was. And I still like the Mentor 8 more then the Helicon 400mk2.
Unfortunately the market is slow, so I still own the Mentors frown.gif
Edited by abdon - 7/2/13 at 11:21pm
post #3108 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by abdon View Post

Do you like your Helicons? Just wondering smile.gif


I'm really loving them, I just paired the up with an AB Cinema series 4300 power amp, they are singing from the heavens now. I was going to pair them with the Parasound Halo, but I decided to ditch that idea after careful research.
post #3109 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky301067 View Post

I'm really loving them, I just paired the up with an AB Cinema series 4300 power amp, they are singing from the heavens now. I was going to pair them with the Parasound Halo, but I decided to ditch that idea after careful research.

I do not know this poweramp, but it seems to be serious stuff smile.gif Congrats with your gear!
post #3110 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

The latest version of REW (Room EQ Wizard) has a neat little "Room sim" to play with. smile.gif
Insert your room dimensions, choose how many subs you have, click and hold mouse on sub(s) or your head and move them around. Watch what happens on the graph.

Have fun! smile.gif
Thnx, Feri. I haven't had the time to mess with REW but hope to at some time.

Oswego, you may find this post on the topic of speaker placement based on room measurements on the Audyssey thread by sdurani, using Feri's room as an ex., to be interesting. I did. (mogorf). See here:http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/63300#post_23499232
post #3111 of 3437
Thanks for the suggestion, SoundofMind. I have two JL Audio Fathom f112s on order to help out with the low end in my system and this could be a big help in setting them up correctly.
post #3112 of 3437

^Cool! That should bring some serious low freq game to the room!  

Here is a link Sanjay (sdurani) provided in a later post, and I find it a surprisingly readable/understandable, though necessarily technical, article on this topic:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf

 

Have you selected a measurement system? I suggest REW- cost is under $100 for a usb equipped calibrated mic; the software is free and you use your laptop which is connected to your processor's input to emit test signals.  The good thing is there's a very active thread here with guys who love to help newbies.  And they'll love the challenge of your room! The thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

post 1 has handy tips

post #9 has more handy tips and this link  to download Jerry's essential beginner's guide:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/270#post_22823228

 

 

The alternative I'd consider is OmniMic-almost $300 but it's easy to get operating to get basic freq sweeps.  Getting accurate time domain/waterfall plots to measure ringing is more challenging but there is a support thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1293353/dayton-omnimic-precision-measurement-system

post #3113 of 3437
Hi there,
Just wandering if anyone tried going with Helicons on the front and Mentor 2s on the back for surround. Will appreciate your comments, thanks!
Martin
post #3114 of 3437
Knowing that my knowledge about how to set up stereo equipment, especially subs, is lacking, I hired someone to set up and calibrate my subs (JL Audio F112s) that I purchased to beef up the low end on my Dali Epicon 6s. A situation that I have been complaining about since I got the speakers in April.

After placing the subs in the room, the tech listened to my system before connecting the subs and immediately said, your Dali speakers should be generating more bass than what they are generating. This is exactly when the "speaker positioning tech" from the local Dali dealer told me when he visited my home.

Anyway, using an Ohm tester, the tech quickly determined that the lower driver in my Dali Epicon 6 (the only one of the two that actually sits in a corner) was not working.

I then called the dealer and had the tech explain what he determined. The dealer was not helpful, so I called Sound Org directly and explained both the situation and my ongoing dissatisfaction with the dealer. Normally, and understandably, they require a tech from their dealer to confirm that a driver is not working. To their credit, they shipped a replacement driver to my dealer the next day without waiting for confirmation from their technician.

The local dealer is coming out this afternoon to replace the driver. My fingers are crossed, however, even if the bass becomes comes to life after the driver is replaced, I will still have two f12's in the room.
post #3115 of 3437

^Wow.  I thought someone had checked out your drivers as one of the earliest steps of troubleshooting the lack of bass. 

 

AFAIK that is the driver designated as "kicking in below 600Hz".   It has rather profound impact on bass output. 

 

BTW, I have the Euphonia MS5s in a 3300 cu ft space.  Though each has 2 nice 8" drivers the bass with my two Velo DD10  subs engaged is smoother and punchier than without.
 

post #3116 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by bairesman View Post

Hi there,
Just wandering if anyone tried going with Helicons on the front and Mentor 2s on the back for surround. Will appreciate your comments, thanks!
Martin

I have an 11.1 setup with the Helicon 300 MKii's etc and using one pair of Mentor 2's in the rear. They do sound good and integrate well.
post #3117 of 3437
SoundofMind, any thoughts on...

My local tech, after speaking with JL Audio (I purchased two F112s), thinks that i need a crossover--my amp is the Bryston 4BSST2 and my preamp is the Bryston BP17.

The dealer that sold the JLs to me also reps Bryston and Dali. He does not believe that I need a crossover.

Must say that with the driver replaced, I am pretty happy with the bass. Could it be better with the JL subs...probably, but now I am trying to determine if I need a crossover.

I am tired of spending $$$, however, my local tech, after speaking with JL Audio, is not confident that he can optimize the subs without a crossover.
post #3118 of 3437
I understand what the local tech is talking about but IMO he should be at least willing to hook up one or both subs without the crossover to see if it can be blended properly without introducing a crossover into your very refined analog electronics.

First, I suggest if you have not done so, download your sub OM and read the section starting on p24. This what the local tech is referring to:

"When connecting a Fathom (or multiple Fathoms) in mono to a two-channel audio
system you will use both the “Left or Mono” and the “Right” inputs. Summing circuitry
in the Fathom’s input section will sum the stereo signals to mono. We strongly recommend that you use a high-quality active crossover to divide your preamplifier’s signals prior to connection
to the Fathom and to the amplifier driving your main speakers. This will allow you to filter low frequencies out of the signals driving the main speakers, resulting in better performance."

(Ed: I will add that a crossover consists of a combination of 2 filters. The low-pass filter splits off the freqs below a given point-say 80 Hz-and send those to the subs. The high-pass filter sends all freqs higher than 80 to the main speakers.)

And the very next part is what the dealer is referring to:
"If you are not using an active crossover and are comfortable running your main
speakers full-range, you can split your preamplifier’s output signals using appropriate Y-connectors in place of the active crossover shown in the diagram. "

But let's step back a moment. First off you are completely right, what's important is really whether YOU'RE happy with the bass. And ideally you'd only want the equipment needed to get you there. If you hadn't a faulty driver, would you even be considering subs? I think not.

As I'm sure you recall, early on in this conversation I pointed out that your processor does not have bass management (a built-in crossover) and that is not ideal if you need subs to fill your space with nice bass. If you really don't need subs, you have a different problem-returning the subs for a refund. biggrin.gif Ideally the Fathom dealer would accept the subs back and the Epicon dealer/SoundOrg would cover any restocking/shipping fees to make up for their sheer incompetence in diagnosing an obvious problem. Less than ideally, perhaps the Fathom dealer will take one sub back as it's sounding increasingly unlikely given the circumstances that you'll need two.

Given your preamp I early on suggested basically the same solution as the Fathom dealer is, i.e, using the sophisticated electronics in the sub(s) to blend the sub(s) with the mains simply by using the low-pass filter in the sub. Yes the mains have no high-pass filter and will be putting out some bass as they are receiving the full spectrum signal. That could make for boominess in the range of 60-90 Hz. However, the built-in EQ of the subs should compensate for that.
post #3119 of 3437
SoundofMind...your responses always blow me away...thanks yet again for your feedback.

With the replaced driver, the bass coming out of the Epicon 6s is improved. Would I like still more bass in my 5,000+ sq. ft. room...yes, but I doubt that I would have ordered the subs had both speakers been working properly from day one. First, the sound is pretty good now and second it is highly unlikely that our next house will have either the space or the acoustical need to accommodate both the speakers and the subs.

The morale of my stereo quest, in my opinion, is that if you are not truly knowledgeable about stereo equipment, buy local and buy everything from one source that guarantees satisfaction.

I did get a very good deal on the subs. So, if I end up selling them, it will hurt, but the loss should not be too great. Then again that assumes that I find someone local/within driving distance to purchase them.

My inclination is to have the local tech set them up without a crossover and hope for the best. If I am really dissatisfied with the sound, then I will look at a crossover.
post #3120 of 3437
^You're quite welcome, glad to be of any assistance.

I do think that with those nice subs properly set up, the bass will be smoother, punchier yet should still be proportionate & not overbearing. If anything properly set up multiple subs should help you hear the rest of the freq spectrum more clearly by eliminating big bass peaks that cause muddiness.

I would hope that a measurement system will be involved with bass sweeps to position the subs. I'm no tech but in my view the final adjustments have to be made with subs and speakers playing the same signal simultaneously (as there's no crossover). IOW the tech should adjust the sub settings (volume, EQ, filter(s), etc for smoothest bass overall, taking into account the FR/L. Finally, listening to your favorite bass-heavy material should be proof is in the pudding.

Hopefully the tech will be willing to tweaks it till it sounds right to you. If it can't be made right to your ear, you could follow his suggestion on a crossover. In that case I imagine you'll want a very good analog xover to put between your preamp and your amp, as you don't want to do additional analog to digital to analog conversions. The only one I know of off hand is the Outlaw Audio ICBM-1 Analog Bass Management / Multi-Channel Active Crossover (but that's a discontinued model).
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