or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Dali speakers
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dali speakers - Page 106

post #3151 of 3437

I always wonder at reports of SS electronic or even wire (!) "break in".  Speakers are mechanical so there may be something going on there but it'd be interesting to find out if Dali has measurements of speaker low freq output improving after hours or if it's all based on "golden ears" subjective experience.

 

Personally I suspect much audible break-in is due to a psychoacoustic/psychological phenomena well-established for decades termed "accommodation".  IOW the listener is accommodating to the unique sound of the speaker, increasingly able to "listen through" irregularities of FR-dips/peaks in the bass, harshness in the HF, etc etc.  In that case it's the ear/brain of the listener that's likely what's being broken in. We all experience this when there is fairly regular background noise-after awhile the brain tends to tune it out and you are no longer aware of it unless your attention is redirected back to it.

 

I tend to think the same way about  Dali manuals recommending biamping/biwiring/triwiring and their fancy cables- I just don't know what science that's based on. 

post #3152 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

it'd be interesting to find out if Dali has measurements of speaker low freq output improving after hours or if it's all based on "golden ears" subjective experience.
I've never measured a woofer that didn't go 10% lower after break-in. That's a few thousand woofers. OTOH non-mechanical devices can't break in, and self-proclaimed 'golden ears' who think that they do also have 'manure for brains'. biggrin.gif
post #3153 of 3437

^Interesting, Bill. Is it that the surrounds on the woofers are initially stiff and then become more flexible?

post #3154 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I've never measured a woofer that didn't go 10% lower after break-in. That's a few thousand woofers. OTOH non-mechanical devices can't break in, and self-proclaimed 'golden ears' who think that they do also have 'manure for brains'. biggrin.gif

Bill, care to expand a bit on the followings:

1. 10% lower of what? The -3 dB roll-off frequency?
2. How long was the break-in period?
3. How was the actual break-in done? With a test signal or a low frequency sweep or other?

TIA. smile.gif
post #3155 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Bill, care to expand a bit on the followings:
1. 10% lower of what? The -3 dB roll-off frequency?
Yes
Quote:
2. How long was the break-in period?
Overnight
Quote:
3. How was the actual break-in done? With a test signal or a low frequency sweep or other?
I generally use a 25-30Hz sine wave at sufficient voltage to have the excursion just below xmax, which with an unmounted woofer seldom takes more than 8 volts unless it's a long excursion sub.
Quote:
^Interesting, Bill. Is it that the surrounds on the woofers are initially stiff and then become more flexible?
Just like new unwashed jeans or leather shoes. As a designer it's critical that I break in every driver, as I need to know what the speaker does post break-in, and also one can't always trust manufacturer T/S specs to be accurate. Those specs, BTW, are measured on sample drivers post break-in. But sometimes there are changes in materials between when the driver samples are measured and they go into actual production. Once in a while they're so far off that a driver that initially looked good on paper doesn't end up making the cut.
post #3156 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Yes
Overnight
I generally use a 25-30Hz sine wave at sufficient voltage to have the excursion just below xmax, which with an unmounted woofer seldom takes more than 8 volts unless it's a long excursion sub.
Just like new unwashed jeans or leather shoes. As a designer it's critical that I break in every driver, as I need to know what the speaker does post break-in, and also one can't always trust manufacturer T/S specs to be accurate. Those specs, BTW, are measured on sample drivers post break-in. But sometimes there are changes in materials between when the driver samples are measured and they go into actual production. Once in a while they're so far off that a driver that initially looked good on paper doesn't end up making the cut.

Thank you Bill, I always thought modern speakers are like modern cars that don't need a break-in period. Seems the opposite is true for speakers/drivers. smile.gif
post #3157 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Yes
Overnight
I generally use a 25-30Hz sine wave at sufficient voltage to have the excursion just below xmax, which with an unmounted woofer seldom takes more than 8 volts unless it's a long excursion sub.
Just like new unwashed jeans or leather shoes. As a designer it's critical that I break in every driver, as I need to know what the speaker does post break-in, and also one can't always trust manufacturer T/S specs to be accurate. Those specs, BTW, are measured on sample drivers post break-in. But sometimes there are changes in materials between when the driver samples are measured and they go into actual production. Once in a while they're so far off that a driver that initially looked good on paper doesn't end up making the cut.

Say Bill, I am expecting a new pair of speakers in a couple of weeks. Would you have a link to a FLAC of that sine wave?
post #3158 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

Say Bill, I am expecting a new pair of speakers in a couple of weeks. Would you have a link to a FLAC of that sine wave?

Dr_Mark, not Bill but you can download any sine wave you wish in wav format from here: http://www.audiocheck.net/audiofrequencysignalgenerator_sinetone.php

Although the duration is max. 10 sec you can set your player to loop it back (replay).
post #3159 of 3437

^Geeze, I think I'd prefer to break them in with music.  Course I let other people pay me to break in my speakers (I've bought all my Dalis used at fabulous discounts;)).

post #3160 of 3437
Got some new toys today.biggrin.gif I can totally report that Parasound Halo Amps are golden with Epicons

[IMG ALT="Make : NIKON CORPORATION
Model : NIKON D2X
ExposureTime : 0.050000
FNumber : 2.800000
ExposureProgram : 3
ISOSpeedRatings : 800
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 1.000000
ExposureBiasValue : 0.000000
MaxApertureValue : 3.000000
MeteringMode : 5
LightSource : 0
Flash : 0
FocalLength : 38.000000
MakerNote : 78 105 107 111 110 0 2 16 0 0 77 77
UserComment : 65 83 67 73 73 0 0 0 32 32 32 32 32
GPSInfo : 25432"]http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/333285/width/350/height/700[/IMG]

[IMG ALT="Make : NIKON CORPORATION
Model : NIKON D2X
ExposureTime : 0.050000
FNumber : 2.800000
ExposureProgram : 3
ISOSpeedRatings : 800
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 1.000000
ExposureBiasValue : 0.000000
MaxApertureValue : 3.000000
MeteringMode : 5
LightSource : 0
Flash : 0
FocalLength : 38.000000
MakerNote : 78 105 107 111 110 0 2 16 0 0 77 77
UserComment : 65 83 67 73 73 0 0 0 32 32 32 32 32
GPSInfo : 25564"]http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/333284/width/350/height/700[/IMG]

post #3161 of 3437

^Very cool! 

 

 

Note, there is a bunch of picture data on exposure etc with the pics in your first post and nothing but picture data (no pics) in your second post

post #3162 of 3437
Which Parasound amp are you using?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

Got some new toys today.biggrin.gif I can totally report that Parasound Halo Amps are golden with Epicons
post #3163 of 3437
I am using an A21 with the epicons, have them breaking in now. I deleted the second post. could not get the pictures to post.
post #3164 of 3437
Thanks. From the photo, I couldn't tell if it was an A21 or a JC1.

Congrats on the new speakers!
post #3165 of 3437
Thank you, The tweeter section was pretty harsh for the first 30 minutes. Then it settled down and the bass drivers are still tight. I'm giving them 4 days of Mickey Hart - Planet Drum - Temple Caves. Great highs and very deep lows.

They are a very nice improvement over the Helicon MK2's.
post #3166 of 3437

Dr Mark -

 

Congrats on the new gear - those epicons look outstanding.

 

Will be interested to hear an update about the pre v post break-in sonic characteristics - I have been noting some small changes in the bass depth and a slight smoothing of the top-end.

post #3167 of 3437
Dr Mark, hope you enjoy your Epicons and may you avoid what I did to my pair of Epicon 6s...

My Epicons (I also have a pair of JL Audio F112s) are powered by a Bryston 4BSST2 amp.

My earlier posts on this site have mostly been about my system never really producing the kind of bass output that I experienced in the showroom--mostly due to my lousy room acoustics...large, unenclosed room that flows into the rest of the house.

Anyway, I thought that these 300 watt speakers could handle all that my 300 watt amp could deliver (I since learned why that thinking was flawed). About a month ago, I really cranked up Led Zeppelin's Moby Dick. Seemed like I could only hear/feel the bass if I really upped the volume.

This afternoon, a tech came by and replaced the three drivers 6 1/2" drivers that Moby Dick blew out frown.gif Needless to say, this was not covered by the warranty.
post #3168 of 3437
Congrats with the Euphonia and the Epicon 6 smile.gif

And I am very curious about the differences between the epicon and helicon/euphonia series. It would be nice if somewhere on the world, would try this and publish the results.

I listened to the mentor 6 & 8, the helicon 300mk2, 400mk2, 800mk2 (I have these now), the epicon 6, but never on the same day or in the same room (except for the mentor 8 and helicon 800mk2 / mentor 8 helicon 300mk2).
Edited by abdon - 12/20/13 at 2:21am
post #3169 of 3437
I wonder which helicons? the 400mk2? I have always considered the 400mk2 the weakest one in the series (see my previous post smile.gif)
post #3170 of 3437
I'll try to post some thoughts in a few days. The bass is still tight, I was told give it 4-days to break in.

Oswego, we must have the same dealer. I called him when I got them hooked up and said I blew a driver. He told me a customer of his did the same thing. I immediately turned them down. No over driving for me. The Parasound A21 still seems to be a perfect match. The imaging is just stunning over the Helicon's and Euphonia's.

FYI, he didn't think my joke was funny frown.gif

How loud are you cranking the Epicons up to? I can only think you are over driving them to blow drivers.
Edited by Dr_Mark - 12/19/13 at 6:03am
post #3171 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

Dr Mark, hope you enjoy your Epicons and may you avoid what I did to my pair of Epicon 6s...
My Epicons (I also have a pair of JL Audio F112s) are powered by a Bryston 4BSST2 amp.
My earlier posts on this site have mostly been about my system never really producing the kind of bass output that I experienced in the showroom--mostly due to my lousy room acoustics...large, unenclosed room that flows into the rest of the house.
Anyway, I thought that these 300 watt speakers could handle all that my 300 watt amp could deliver (I since learned why that thinking was flawed). About a month ago, I really cranked up Led Zeppelin's Moby Dick. Seemed like I could only hear/feel the bass if I really upped the volume.
This afternoon, a tech came by and replaced the three drivers 6 1/2" drivers that Moby Dick blew out frown.gif Needless to say, this was not covered by the warranty.


YIKES! Sorry to hear that.  I recall that you have a huge open space-that is hard to fill with bass. If you were running subs when you blew the  tower drivers, perhaps we should review your overall bass management.  Is there a crossover in the system redirecting below 80 away from the towers to the subs? 

 

It is also good to keep in mind that all these are relatively low efficiency speakers and if you want very high SPL without endangering your speakers you need to sit reasonably close, the power requirements for any given SPL go up rapidly with distance, and any given driver can only handle so much power.  To get an idea, use this:

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

post #3172 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I always wonder at reports of SS electronic or even wire (!) "break in".  Speakers are mechanical so there may be something going on there but it'd be interesting to find out if Dali has measurements of speaker low freq output improving after hours or if it's all based on "golden ears" subjective experience.

Personally I suspect much audible break-in is due to a psychoacoustic/psychological phenomena well-established for decades termed "accommodation".  IOW the listener is accommodating to the unique sound of the speaker, increasingly able to "listen through" irregularities of FR-dips/peaks in the bass, harshness in the HF, etc etc.  In that case it's the ear/brain of the listener that's likely what's being broken in. We all experience this when there is fairly regular background noise-after awhile the brain tends to tune it out and you are no longer aware of it unless your attention is redirected back to it.

I tend to think the same way about  Dali manuals recommending biamping/biwiring/triwiring and their fancy cables- I just don't know what science that's based on. 
Break-in on some speakers take 2 minutes, on others 200 hours. With the DALI's, the top end "opens up" around 100 hours. Not 3 days but 4 full days. I've done it about 30+ times (I'm a DALI dealer). I've been to DALI twice and sat in Peter Lyngdorf's home once. Rest assured break-in happens and that agrees with the engineers ears. I'll bet the farm you can peg off the difference between a broken in pair and one that has 10 hours on them. smile.gif

I sold Mark his speakers. If you are able to get out to MN, I'm sure he would host you to come over. If you live in the UP, it's about a 4 hour drive. I garantee you will come out thinking differently on the topics you described. But come with a skeptical mind. I'll drag over some new speakers versus broken in ones and we can compare and contrast. smile.gif
Edited by SteveH - 12/19/13 at 6:51am
post #3173 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswego0522 View Post

Dr Mark, hope you enjoy your Epicons and may you avoid what I did to my pair of Epicon 6s...

My Epicons (I also have a pair of JL Audio F112s) are powered by a Bryston 4BSST2 amp.

My earlier posts on this site have mostly been about my system never really producing the kind of bass output that I experienced in the showroom--mostly due to my lousy room acoustics...large, unenclosed room that flows into the rest of the house.

Anyway, I thought that these 300 watt speakers could handle all that my 300 watt amp could deliver (I since learned why that thinking was flawed). About a month ago, I really cranked up Led Zeppelin's Moby Dick. Seemed like I could only hear/feel the bass if I really upped the volume.

This afternoon, a tech came by and replaced the three drivers 6 1/2" drivers that Moby Dick blew out frown.gif Needless to say, this was not covered by the warranty.

Lar's (CEO and MSEE of DALI) said there is a trade-off between power handling resolution. They chose pristine resolution. As we talked, your ears are logarithmic. Going from loud to very loud requires a massive amount of additional power. I've personally blown two drivers (Euphonia soft dome and one woofer). I seems to remember it happened with one too many glasses of wine.redface.gif
post #3174 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post

Lar's (CEO and MSEE of DALI) said there is a trade-off between power handling resolution. They chose pristine resolution. As we talked, your ears are logarithmic. Going from loud to very loud requires a massive amount of additional power. I've personally blown two drivers (Euphonia soft dome and one woofer). I seems to remember it happened with one too many glasses of wine.redface.gif

I guess when you come over on Saturday.... I'll be hiding the booze!

I have broken in quite a few pairs of Dali's. I have found 3 days minimum for full resolution. Saturday will be my 4-day mark on these. The first 30 minutes was telling; from harsh to mellowing out and very detailed. Day 2 the woofers opened up a bit and the mids as well. Detail, image are amazing..

I was going to keep the Helicon C200 MK2, but it's going to be replaced next year.
post #3175 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

I guess when you come over on Saturday.... I'll be hiding the booze!

I have broken in quite a few pairs of Dali's. I have found 3 days minimum for full resolution. Saturday will be my 4-day mark on these. The first 30 minutes was telling; from harsh to mellowing out and very detailed. Day 2 the woofers opened up a bit and the mids as well. Detail, image are amazing..

I was going to keep the Helicon C200 MK2, but it's going to be replaced next year.

How about some Bailey's in my coffee? You will be in charge of the remote!

Music ALWAYS sounds better with a couple of glasses of wine! Maybe that is why my system sounds better in the evenings. tongue.gif
post #3176 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post


Lar's (CEO and MSEE of DALI) said there is a trade-off between power handling resolution. They chose pristine resolution. As we talked, your ears are logarithmic. Going from loud to very loud requires a massive amount of additional power. I've personally blown two drivers (Euphonia soft dome and one woofer). I seems to remember it happened with one too many glasses of wine.redface.gif

Hey Steve - Is there an approximate SPL that should not be exceeded to reduce the risk of blown drivers?

post #3177 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadiman View Post

Hey Steve - Is there an approximate SPL that should not be exceeded to reduce the risk of blown drivers?
I will ask them at CES. I don't know the numbers. That said, I've observed softdome tweeters blown by themselves, ribbons by themselves, and woofers by themselves. In theory, there should be a weakest link. It can only mean what blows is music dependent. I've sold over a couple of million dollars + in DALI's (mostly Helicon on up). So I've observed a couple dozen blown situations. When I play LOUD, I'm in fine shape. Pushing it beyond what you should is semi-obvious. Truth be told, it doesn't sound great when you damage your ears anyways.

I will say that I find a strong correlation to those who blow drivers more than once.
post #3178 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadiman View Post

Hey Steve - Is there an approximate SPL that should not be exceeded to reduce the risk of blown drivers?

wadiman, me thinks SPL is really distance dependent (in-room distance from speaker to point of measurement) so it should now give a clear cut answer to your question. Instead, a speaker overload resulting in a blown driver should depend on the input signal level a speaker can handle. smile.gif
post #3179 of 3437
I have see so many poor recordings that are riddled with distortion. Crank them up much and good luck with your drivers. Really well done recordings will allow much louder play. It's pretty subjective to me.
I usually go by the rule, if it hurts my ears or sound distorted, turn it down. Never looked at a sound meter. The last time I blew a driver was 1980. I also love loud too.
post #3180 of 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

I have see so many poor recordings that are riddled with distortion. Crank them up much and good luck with your drivers. Really well done recordings will allow much louder play. It's pretty subjective to me.
I usually go by the rule, if it hurts my ears or sound distorted, turn it down. Never looked at a sound meter. The last time I blew a driver was 1980. I also love loud too.

Dr_Mark, let's think of a recording that is distorted. Me thinks the amp and the speaker will pass it on undistorted regardless of being cranked up or not. An amp and the speaker will not know that the recording itself is distorted, eh? Think of how nice a distorted guitar can please our ears. smile.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Dali speakers