Dali speakers - Page 13

The cosmetic differences are subtle dependent upon lighting and the luck of the draw with the the grain, etc. I think whatever process Dali is using to create the finish, they are getting better yields with the new finish as there were some comments about "orange peel" effect. All the speakers I owned never had this situation.

The binding posts appear to be heavier and stronger in the series 2 and the positioning is different of course. I am no binding post expert. I kind of prefer the look of the older series with the front finished the same as the balance of the speaker, rather then the piano black. I also prefer the Dali logo in black and gold, rather then silver and black on the II series. You can't really notice the difference in the photos. I always leave the covers on anyway, so that difference is not a factor for me. The new series is still a "knockout" eye turner and they all have excellent build quality and aesthetics. Sonics though is what sells speakers and with a limited amount of time listening, they are excellent monitors!!

Edit: I was cruising around Audiogon and saw a Pair of Dyn Confidence C1's that sold and there was a photo of the binding posts. It appears without a real life comparison the binding posts on the MKII's are similar or the same as the Dyn's. At least they are in good company at that level if my suspicions are correct.

FWIW,

I'm wondering if crossing over the 400s to a powered sub will lessen the issue of closeness to a back wall?

My 400s are about 18" from the back wall. I have them crossed over at 80Hz, and I do not notice any obvious issues.

I had my audio professionally calibrated (by UMR) at the same time he did my TV. He did not comment on any issues with the 400s, and he would have if there was a problem.

Thanks
Bruce

Thanks Bruce. Mine will be crossed over to a SVS PB-13 Ultra so that should help...

Ryden,

No I did not purchase the Dali stands. They list at $1200 so you can do the math. I went back and forth with those Dali stands if I wanted to spend that kind of money, but decided on Sound Anchor 4-Post stands with Cone Coasters that I purchased on Audiogon.

The Sound Anchor's are not in the same league cosmetically as the Dali stands, but purely from a functionality perspective, the Sound Anchor's are incredible. Last evening I experimented a bit with my older stands in straight 2 channel and then switched to the Sound Anchor's and it was a night and day difference from top to bottom. I can't write the older stands were bad, but the Sound Anchor's definitely improved the output of the monitors.

The older stands I have are not filled, but just regular $100 stands I purchased a long time and probably are not optimized. There are no spikes or fill in the older stands. I can't provide charts or anything like that on the Sound Anchor's, but purely from "The Ears," they make a large difference. The Sound Anchor's are already filled from the manufacturer and made of 3/4 inch steel. They provide a solid foundation for monitors. Money well spent on my part.

Realize that I was always a floorstander kind of guy for all my life, but the rear ported speakers I owned always seemed to sound great, but overpowered my smallish rooms. Perhaps front ported speakers would have worked in my situation, but I really like the Dali sound and for the moment, will stay with them. If Dali made the Euphonia in a monitor, I might have gone there and the RS3 (MSRP $4,300 pair) may have fit the bill. However, the bill was more then I could afford at the moment considering I probably would have needed to buy the center channel (MSRP $4,000) at a later date.

The only item that has disappointed me with the newer Dali shipment is NO white gloves enclosed in the packaging. The white gloves were a great accessory with the Dali speakers and I used them all the time when handling the speakers. It may a trivial comment on my part, but I really liked those white gloves in the shipments. They definitely added a touch of class to the packaging and presentation.

I don't think the newer version's finish is a step above the first version Helicon's. They both have a world class finish if you like a gloss sheen finish on your speakers. It's like kissing a number 10 blond or a 10 redhead. They both are wise choices for intimacy.

Sounds like you made a great call on your stands! I never knew what the Dali ones cost, or how good they are as a stand; only how striking looking they are. But it sounds like Sound Anchor stands have been a real benefit to your system. It amazes me how something like a metal stand can have so many sonic differences, fascinating!

I am very curious in what differences you "hear" between the two different Helicons. I feel very fortunate to have been able to get the 400's and C200 under the closeout because I would not have been able to afford them otherwise, but I am still curious about what sonic improvemets (if any) there are between the two.

I would never have known about Dali speakers if not for this thread, so thanks to everybody for enriching my life.

You can see some mild orange peel texture in the reflection of the light on the front corner of the V1 speaker in this photo. Orange peel texture comes from not sanding properly between each coat of lacquer.

Nice stands Mozvz, but those Dali stands are a sight to behold. Yes, they're expensive but I look at it like a great piece of furniture. Ive yet to see a set of speaker stands that look right besides the ones from Dali and the matching pedestals you can get from Triad for their LCR's.

Well, at long last my Helicon 400's and C200 are setup!! I am so excited.

First visual impressions:
They are breath-taking cabinets. I had to mix match between the Rosenut 400's and Cherry 200 due to what was left in inventory during the closeout. Both are beautiful; the Rosenut is certainly much darker in person than I expected. Now I understand why Dali does not build a black speaker, the Rosenut is close to black, yet more rich. The Cherry is more eye-catching but would probably have been a touch to distracting had I ordered my fronts in them.

First sonic impressions:
In a word, wow! Although they are still a touch rigid right now, they are literally opening up in front of my ears with every minute that passes. They are so detailed and the imaging is just incredible. A pleasant suprise as well is the bass of the 400. They are much more detailed and lower extending than I would have thought. I known the 800 have always been known for their bass, but the 400's are no slouch. I want to give the speakers and myself a little more time before saying more. But I am thrilled!!

Looks great, but from everything I've read about the Helicon's they need a few feet minimum from the rear wall in order to breathe or you could have a real bass problem.

Agreed on both points. The system looks great Ryden. Experiment with the 400's and attempt to give them as much room as possible away from the wall.

One thing I noticed in your photo where the 400 is sitting next to the PB-13 is it appears the speaker is toed in? IF it is, you might want to try and straighten it up and make the front parallel to your seating area. The ribbons disperse a lot of sound across the listening area. However, there is no exact science in speaker placement so if that toe in works for you Ryden, then so be it. You know your room better then anyone!!

One question: Did you put the spikes on the bottom of the 400's?

Congratulations on your new toy/s!!

Charles

Hey Charles. I think the picture makes them look a little closer to te wall then they are; they are 13" fron the wall.

I am going back and forth experimenting between no toe in, and a slight toe in. The picture you saw had some toe. So far, I am getting a little better detailed imaging with the lsight toe, but we will see as the speakers break in.

Yes, I put the spikes on the bottom.

Thanks for the advice, and the kind words.

13 inches is not near far enough from the wall. I'm sure you're dealing with some room issues as to why you aren't pulling those speakers out. Yes, you want it all to look uniform and everything in it's place, but because those speakers are rear ported, you've got to pull them out. Those rear ports are another reason why I'm having a tough time choosing between the Helicon's and the Triad LCR INRoom golds. I also have placement issues and I'm worrying about those rear ports.

Mike,

Your concerns are valid about distance from the wall. As you know, I had the 400's and they were to large for my room. Daman benefited from the issue I had. It was my own ignorance not understanding what is needed for the rear ported 400's. I am glad you are more in touch then I was. The greatest distance I could get them away from the wall was about 11 inches. I then treated the room with GIK stuff and it helped considerably. My room was an echo chamber before the GIK panels and bass traps hit the walls and the corners.

The 300's do not give me a problem and the newer version seems more forgiving in 2 channel. I can actually pressurize the room with tight bass with the II series. The 300 I series can accomplish the same thing, but it is not as forgiving with distance from the wall. The new 300's are beginning to strut their stuff, but they will need more time.

You are welcome. I never had the spikes on the 400's due to wood floors. That is an awesome setup you'all got there. Play around with placement and see what works best for you. I think once the 400's get some hours on them, the imaging will become broader, have more sparkle and defined IMHO. Gotta watch those speaker break in comments!!

Luckily, the Dali thread seems to be a haven from the rest of the forum
I think maybe it is small enough and unique enough that is does not attract people looking to post just for the sake of argument. This thread would not give them the action and the audience they seem to crave...

I will post more impressions once I get about 30 hours on the speakers. I am trying to do 15 hours music and 15 HT/TV. I am attempting to have the C200 breakin in as closely to the 400's as possible.

Ryden, whats the dimensions of your room and other than aesthetics, what are your concerns as to why you can't pull those speakers a few feet into the room? Is it an apartment or something?

never really thought about the whole midrange congestion thing.. oh and i will probably be keeping the grills off, because i really would hate to cover up the extreeeemely nice finishes on these things! I have cats but they dont attack speakers.

do the 400s require less room becuase i only have about 2 feet maybe 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 but not 3...

oh and this is a new biggie! whats the difference between the mentors and the helicons?

I do not know how many Dali owners have Blu-ray players? But for those that do, you really need to go out and get the new Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City. I am able to run the TrueHD audio, and their dualing acoustic guitars is just awe inspiring!! This is perfect demo material and truly shows off the detail and imaging of Dali speakers. Highly highly recommended.

A dealer can correct me if there's more to it, but I have believed that the Mentors are everything that the Helicon's are except they are in a traditional box cabinet which is less costly to build, thus the cheaper price. I know some of said that if someone is looking at the Ikon's but can stretch their dollar a bit further to the Mentors that it's highly worth it.

Hmm, I heard the exact opposite.
What I heard is that most of the difference between Ikon and Mentor line is in the finish and that they are much closer sound vise.
Of course that's just what I heard (red) somewhere and I have no personal experience whatsoever.

You might be right and I'm confused. I know real wood veneer cabinets is a big deal to me.

Guys,

I will try to find out the answer to your question if someone else does not pop in and provide the information. Give me a day or so. I have no idea about either of these lines.

Charles

this doesnt really make sense to me because the mentor is very similar to the ikon cabinet to my eyes, and the $1000 jump for a SLIGHTLY different cabinet doesnt make sense.

cajun mikes analysis makes more sense becuase the helicon is a WAY fancier cabinet than the mentors. the ikon to mentor is a stepping stone in terms of looks/cabinets, and the mentor to helicon is a jump!

of course if mozvz finds this out then there will be no doubts

I don't like vinyl cabinets period. The mentors use real wood veneers and to me and others it's worth the expense, especially if you are talking about floor standers. There are very few speakers with vinyl cabinets that don't look cheap to my eye.

Guys,

Here is the quote I received today from my contact at Dali. Hope this resolves the issue of the differences between the Ikon and the Mentor.

Charles

************

Regarding the IKON and MENTOR series, you're welcome to quote me.

IKON and MENTOR are different animals, with some similarities. They both share:

a) Die-cast metal driver baskets with wood-pulp, low-loss woofers. These drivers are lightning quick, with extremely fast impulse and transient response. Impact is immediate.
b) Silk-dome/ribbon tweeter modules, yielding clean, open highs with no trace sibilance.
c) DALI's trademark broad, off-axis dispersion - linear 20 to 30 degrees off-axis, hence wider and deeper soundstage.
d) Hand-made crossovers with point-to-point wiring (no circuit boards - hence greater transparency and texture)

Hence, both MENTOR and IKON have the quick, clean DALI sound, with lots air and "space" around the sound, and sweeping soundstage with sharp focus.

Differences are:

MENTOR features:

a) heavier cabinets with more massive bracing, and real-wood finish
b) more expensive drivers, both woofers and tweeter module

MENTOR has more slam and impact than IKON, because the cabinet is more structurally inert. In addition, MENTOR exhibits greater smoothness and fluidity (less grain) due to the more expensive drivers.

IKON is the bigger bang for the buck - largely due to the unusually expensive drivers used for speakers in this price range. But, in terms of absolute performance, MENTOR exceeds IKON due to the extra cost lavished upon both the enclosure and the drivers.

I hope this information is helpful.

so was I pretty close in saying that they are closer to the Helicon's than IKon's except that rather than curved/high-brow cabinetry in the Helicon line, they are traditional in shape, which is less expensive to produce?

Again, the way I see it, if you're going to spend over a thousand bucks for a pair of main speakers, you should really be looking at speakers that go the extra step with real wood veneers.

Mike,

You were close with your thoughts on the differences. I guess it all comes down to personal tastes and how many zero's in your bank account. The more zero's, the better!!!

Charles

It is by all means helpful, thanks Mozvz.
I specially liked this part: "IKON is the bigger bang for the buck "
But I can absolutely understand that for someone finish is as important as performance (heck if money is no issue it would be as important for me as well).

HERE is one of the (old) reads that puts Ikons even close to Helicons.

I'm certainly not meaning to denigrate the Ikons as I believe they are fantastic at their price point and I know they have been reviewed very favorably.

The only thing the Monitor series needs is a Rosenut-like finish. I don't like black and prefer darker wood finishes.

Not to mention, have you guys noticed the size of the new Mentor Center Channel that is due out soon? And I thought the Helicon Center was large... The Mentor Center is 35" wide.