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Anyone know of a review of the Axiom EP-600 Sub - Page 2  

post #31 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Marcks
For what it's worth, I consider the Axiom EP600 to be a very fundamentally sound design. The DSP technology is very nice, and the optional no-cost finish options are nice too. Seriously, let's try to be more open minded.
Most of the comments here have been tongue in cheek because both HSU and Axiom make excellent sounding, well designed, finely engineered products. Both the ep600 and VTF 3 HO are high performance subs and I can't imagine how anyone wouldn't enjoy having several of each in their homes. Do you want to drive a Dodge Hemi Charger or a Shelby Cobra? :cool:
post #32 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Assessment ? Heck, I was planning on slamming three martinis then starting an argument with myself as to whether it should have a variable phase or a 0-180 switch ...
I still think we should pass the hat around and book you a ticket to the Middle East to settle that discussion. :p I know where HSU and Axiom engineers come out on that riddle.
post #33 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
...... Do you want to drive a Dodge Hemi Charger or a Shelby Cobra? :cool:
So which one is the charger and which one is the Cobra, in your opinion?! :p

meh, never mind.....I personally prefer the Ult...*cough*.... Porsche GT2 http://www.99smiles.com/driving.gif
post #34 of 751
Hey I've got one of those...umm...GTs. Great low rumble but shakes alot in gear. Kinda of bumpy in the flats compared to the Shelby and tires out near the finish line. Looking forward to the overhaul though. Bet the Dodge will smoke it 0 to 100 with the twin supercharger. Gotta love the price too. :p
post #35 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Assessment ? Heck, I was planning on slamming three martinis then starting an argument with myself as to whether it should have a variable phase or a 0-180 switch ...
LOL! :D Just like here, neither side would win that argument either. ;) :)
post #36 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
Hey I've got one of those...umm...GTs. Great low rumble but shakes alot in gear. Kinda of bumpy in the flats compared to the Shelby and tires out near the finish line. Looking forward to the overhaul though. Bet the Dodge will smoke it 0 to 100 with the twin supercharger. Gotta love the price too. :p

must be user error....the ult*cough* GT2 is a very powerful piece of machinery, requirering a good mastery of track driving and experience with techniques like heel-n-toe and corner drifting, to really get it going like they meant to be.

your assesement of that vehicle ("bumpy", "shakes a lot", "dodge will smoke it", etc) shows me undeniable evidence that this is a perfect case of user error, and that you do not posses the necessary experience and knowledge of how that vehicle is meant to be driven..... my track experience, and common knowledge of GT races say that you are not qualified to own such fine engineering in your garage :p ...but I guess this is a free country..LOL :D

if you are worried about 0-100 times, get a honda civic with a stage 3 greddy turbo, straight pipes, etc, and it will smoke your beloved dodge and the shelby as well.....but at the end of the day, it is still just that....a CIVIC.

you see my drift??? ;)
post #37 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
Hmm..Let's see...

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...alumbo/HSU.jpg.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...axiomep600.jpg


HSU VTF 3 HO 22" x 17" x 25" 935ci. 106db@20hz/2Pi GP

AXIOM EP600 45.5" x 15" 17" 1160ci. 107db@30hz/4Pi no GP


Which one looks like Tyrannasaurus Rex and which one Triceratops. :D
Holy Gee Whiz, has that Axiom got a mouth. Anybody who buys that better not have any furry animals or small children in the house. This little HO is doing the 23 Skidoo until Craigs BBQ and we will see what tastes best. The T Rex "Axe" or the "Bees Knees" little HO. ;)
post #38 of 751
I like driving the GT but its engine doesn't purr like the Shelby. I like to drive my cars hard in the corners with no oversteer. The Shelby just seems to hug the road better. I had a mechanic check the GT steering recently to make sure the engine and power supply were fine and he said it was as good as the day it was built. I still think its fun to drive just not built to handle reference loads like the Shelby and the Charger, so I drive it with lower revs now and it works really well and the motor doesn't cough and spit anymore. Great looking car in any event and I'm hoping the upgraded engine will return it to its former glory. ;)
post #39 of 751
T-Rex ? Bees Knees ?

If there are any more bad puns, This test may enter into a martini "six pack" scenario ... :eek: :D :cool:

We also need a name for the PB12-Ultra ...
post #40 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
....

We also need a name for the PB12-Ultra ...
Done:

King Kong ;)






and we all know how the story ends...... :p

http://bilder.filmstarts.de/verzeich...KingKong21.jpg

http://www.99smiles.com/hide.gif
post #41 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
Done:

King Kong ;)






and we all know how the story ends...... :p

http://bilder.filmstarts.de/verzeich...KingKong21.jpg

http://www.99smiles.com/hide.gif
I have seen your sub. For its nickname I pick the "Big Red One"
post #42 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachaelsdad
I have seen your sub. For its nickname I pick the "Big Red One"

nah, I like King Kong much better.... ;)

and my DIY with the Av15 shall be called, Godzilla! :D
post #43 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
nah, I like King Kong much better.... ;)

and my DIY with the Av15 shall be called, Godzilla! :D
Now you're talking. :) I admire guys who build their own gear :cool: ...one day with more time, less demanding job, older kids I'm going to build my own subs too. Looking forward to your final product. What amp are you using?
post #44 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
Now you're talking. :) I admire guys who build their own gear :cool: ...one day with more time, less demanding job, older kids I'm going to build my own subs too. Looking forward to your final product. What amp are you using?

bash plate 500W amp, pretty much the same as in the ultra....same PEQ, features, etc.

should be enough, although I would have liked to spend a little more and go with the ADA 1000W amp, but my goal was to produce an Ultra/EP600 or more level sub at fractional costs. So far, budget is looking around $550 with the materials (excluding veneer).

where have you been?? :confused:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6883528
post #45 of 751
Thanks been dropping into that thread on weekends.

FWIW I had a long chat with Jesse about sub amps when he was planning his IB 18' avalanche rig and he was looking at budget as well. I think most designers fall into the trap of compromising on the sub amp to keep within budget, even the well known brands. I've always regarded that as a mistake. I know, I know. You want an amp that matches the driver so whats the big deal with wanting more than what's rated output.

I've always gone with lots of headroom in all my gear so if you think 500W will do then I would encourage you to spend more and go for 1000w. All that extra headroom will make a huge difference in keeping IM distortion down at the transient peaks as well as at normal listening levels. The difference in sound quality will be your reward. With all the time and effort, a larger amp is money well spent for the extra performance.
post #46 of 751
Jakeman, it also enables a ported sub to be able to bottom with dynamic peaks, as you are familiar with. If output capabilities are already quite high - which they are with most quality DIY subs using a 15" or 18" driver, my philosophy is to keep the power limited to the point where overexcursion is not allowed to occur until after that driver begins unloading. This way, the driver will stay protected.
post #47 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
Jakeman, it also enables a ported sub to be able to bottom with dynamic peaks, as you are familiar with. If output capabilities are already quite high - which they are with most quality DIY subs using a 15" or 18" driver, my philosophy is to keep the power limited to the point where overexcursion is not allowed to occur until after that driver begins unloading. This way, the driver will stay protected.

EXACTLY! :)
post #48 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
Jakeman, it also enables a ported sub to be able to bottom with dynamic peaks, as you are familiar with. If output capabilities are already quite high - which they are with most quality DIY subs using a 15" or 18" driver, my philosophy is to keep the power limited to the point where overexcursion is not allowed to occur until after that driver begins unloading. This way, the driver will stay protected.
A mi tambien. I'm in the process now of picking an amp for a Tumult 15" DIY.
Do not want more watts than the voice coil is rated for or more watts than what the driver xmax limit allows given the enclosure I'm going to use. As it models now with UniBox (using two 18" Passive Radiators) I will have to have some type of 12Hz highpass (rumble) filter to make it fool/mistake proof.
post #49 of 751
Hey Steve. You and Shervin are DIY stars in my books. :) Matching the amp to driver is tricky business because of all the design factors involved and I understand why you need to be so concerned about overheating the voice coil. Without knowing the characteristics of the Avalanche 15, I suspect 1000w may run to high a risk. I know those Bash 500s have a limiting circuit that help avoid damage from overexcursion though ones ability to go with a bigger amp would be better with a bigger cabinet. Presumabley a smaller box would put too much backpressure on the driver thereby increasing the risk of damage to the voicecoil. Maybe the right size is somewhere in between since so many of the 12" designs use the Bash 500.

I'm convinced that trying to go with the largest amp you can in the context of the enclosure, impedance, and driver characteristics like x-max, magnetic flux, thermal capabilities, BH etc. will pay off in better sound quality overall. I also recognize that too much power can blow up drivers or at a minimum cause other distortions. I just think that the role of the amp and its effect on overall performance plays too much of a back seat to things like drivers. Anyway you've dealt with this issue more than me and I appreciate your more practical perspective on this one. :cool:
post #50 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
Done:

King Kong ;)






and we all know how the story ends...... :p

http://bilder.filmstarts.de/verzeich...KingKong21.jpg

http://www.99smiles.com/hide.gif
If I recall, He gets shot off the Empire State Building by some WWI Bi-Planes ... :p
post #51 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
If I recall, He gets shot off the Empire State Building by some WWI Bi-Planes ... :p

:D

yes, but we all know how faired against a certain couple of T-rex's :p

did I mention Godzilla? http://www.99smiles.com/mamoru.gif
post #52 of 751
Hey, I enjoy this type of discussion jakeman - I'm not saying my way is the end all be all answer, just my take on things. Why run a risk (albeit a small one) if you can already get ear bleeding levels of bass. I believe ssabripo is using a Custom Sounds AV15 and not an Avalanche 15 - don't know the difference in power handling between them, but I'd suggest a pro amp either way, as I think the plate amp does have a built in filter (20hz?) and a beefy pro amp usually has better a damping factor.

One other thing to note - the larger the enclsoure, the less power is needed because the driver is more efficient and will reach excursion limits faster (faster than with the same amount of power in a smaller enclsoure that is). That's another benefit of a large enclsoure, the increased efficiency means less power handling is needed and therefore less chance for thermal compression. IB's typically only need around 200 watts.
post #53 of 751
My .02. I am running 1500 watts for headroom with a 17 hz hi pass filter for safety.
post #54 of 751
Agree on efficiency. And I agree you can get great bass with smaller amps as well. I'm thinking about maximum SPLs with minimum artifacts and distortions. Those high excursion drivers already come with high IM distortion and if played loud with a medium sized amp lacking headroom your just buying more distortion. My sense is you can go bigger amp with bigger enclosure and larger driver though I'll qualify it because of the other factors involved. I think there's room with the 15inchers depending on the size of cabinet. Some subs pack a 12 incher and a 600w amp or more. On the other hand I understand why playing it safe with a limiting amp is appealing as you won't clip or push the driver to x-max. Those drivers aren't cheap.
post #55 of 751
Ahh, and now we get to my philosophy on high excursion drivers :) I say go with as high an excursion as you can, but try to limit the amount of excursion you actually need to use to reach your ear bleeding levels, as that will minimize distortion greatly.

For example, let's say sub A uses a driver with 33mm excursion, but limits the peak cone movement (through enclosure size, tuning, and available power) to 23mm at max power through all frequencies until the driver begins unloading in the low teens. Now let's say sub B uses a driver with 12mm excursion, but to reach sufficient playback levels, the peak cone movement is at or near 12mm at max power through the range of about 19-32hz, and then again when it begins unloading in the low teens. Which driver will produce more distortion?
post #56 of 751
its simple fellas:

the AV15 will reside on a pretty big enclosure (6 cu ft net, 7.5 cu ft gross), with a mamoth 6" pipe, tuned to 18hz. I do NOT listen or will listen to it at reference levels often, and will not be running max SPL, although it is capable of putting substantial levels if needed.

ergo, as steve mentioned, I will more than likely hit excursion limits and so on much faster than I would reaching the amp levels. The 500W bash amp (as found in the PB ultra) is more than adequate, particularly with my enclosure and ported design, and paired with the Ultra tuned to either 20 or 16hz, I will be more than ready for big bass if needed (not Bosso or Kgveteran levels, but enough for my tastes).

having a bigger amp is never a bad thing, but given my constraints, I am more than adequately powered...
post #57 of 751
Steve. I thought you might say that :) . And now a word from one of the greatest sub designers, Dr. Hsu:

Quote:
While some companies focus on lowering harmonic distortion, we focus on keeping a good balance of harmonic, inter-modulation, and dynamic distortion. We use vented systems to keep cone excursions relatively low to reduce inter-modulation distortion and increase low bass headroom (lower dynamic distortion in the low bass range).

We believe in using designs that avoid using high excursion drivers for three reasons: First, ultra high excursion drivers are not cost effective. They are costly to manufacture. Second is reliability. It's hard to make ultra high excursion drivers that are reliable. Third, ultra high excursion also means ultra high inter-modulation distortion.
The man makes great sense as usual.
post #58 of 751
To his points though:

1) This is DIY baby, we're after that last ounce of performance. A $275-400 driver doesn't seem all that bad to me considering what you are getting.

2) Though this definitely doesn't speak for all cases, I've yet to read of problems with Tumults, Avalanches, Blueprints, or RLps (insert other high excursion drivers here).

3) I addressed this in my last post - what are your thoughts?


I'm not questioning Dr. Hsu, by no means, as I am but a mere rookie, but you have to take his statements in the context of mass producing a great bang for the buck commercial subwoofer. My statements are in the context of building a custom, performance driven DIY sub. The sick part is that for the cost of that bang for the buck commercial subwoofer, you can build the performance driven DIY sub :D
post #59 of 751
Quote:
Those high excursion drivers already come with high IM distortion and if played loud with a medium sized amp lacking headroom your just buying more distortion.
Looks like IMD is becoming quite the controversial discussion item:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...6&pagenumber=2
post #60 of 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
Ahh, and now we get to my philosophy on high excursion drivers :) I say go with as high an excursion as you can, but try to limit the amount of excursion you actually need to use to reach your ear bleeding levels, as that will minimize distortion greatly.

For example, let's say sub A uses a driver with 33mm excursion, but limits the peak cone movement (through enclosure size, tuning, and available power) to 23mm at max power through all frequencies until the driver begins unloading in the low teens. Now let's say sub B uses a driver with 12mm excursion, but to reach sufficient playback levels, the peak cone movement is at or near 12mm at max power through the range of about 19-32hz, and then again when it begins unloading in the low teens. Which driver will produce more distortion?
Of course sub B. What kind of a question this is Steve? :p

Would someone seriously claim that higher excursion driver produces more THD, IMD, at same output level (same excursion at that SPL)?

Low Xmax = low output = low distortion at low output level = very high distortion at high output level

High Xmax = high output = very low distortion at low output level = high distortion at very high output level

Choose yourself.
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