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Auralex Subdude Owners Thread - Page 38

post #1111 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

Yeah Bill, I do have proof, other than the proof of my own experience which you types ignorantly dismiss as you convolute this topic. The proof is this little thing called mass. Open a book sometime and read up on how mass works.

Physics is a science, and science relies on measurements, but there are no measurements to support the effectiveness of a subwoofer isolation pad. Therefore, the effectiveness of subwoofer isolation pads have no basis in physics. It is that simple.
post #1112 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

but there are no measurements to support the effectiveness of a subwoofer isolation pad. Therefore, the effectiveness of subwoofer isolation pads have no basis in physics. It is that simple.

Accelerometer? Subwoofer causes vibration in the floor which vibrates anything on the floor (bookshelfs, chairs, ect) Isolation pad is suppose to stop a subwoofer cabinet from vibrating the floor. I'm sure you could measure the floor or whatever surface the subwoofer is sitting on with an accelerometer and measure before and after. There fore it would be based on physics, its that simple. Same as measuring a speaker cabinet using an accelerometer.
post #1113 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

Yeah Bill, I do have proof, other than the proof of my own experience which you types ignorantly dismiss as you convolute this topic. The proof is this little thing called mass. Open a book sometime and read up on how mass works.
Better still, get your own M.Eng in Acoustical Engineering and learn how loudspeakers and sound waves work. Speakers, at least those which are not defective, do not transmit vibrations directly from the cabinet to the floor beneath them. If you aren't fully aware of that most basic engineering concept do not bring up the subject of physics, as it's not a topic that you are qualified to make comment on.
If you want to believe in hocus pocus that's your right. It's also mine to point out hocus pocus when I see it.
Quote:
I'm sure you could measure the floor or whatever surface the subwoofer is sitting on with an accelerometer and measure before and after.
It's a lot simpler than that. Measure the in room response at volume high enough to cause things to rattle. Do so with the sub only playing. If you can hear things rattle they'll show up on the chart. Put the pad under the sub, repeat the measurement. If the rattles are gone they won't be on the chart either.
It's such a simple procedure that anyone with REW or the like can do so, which is why it boggles the mind that none of the Auralex fans ever have.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 9/9/13 at 12:06pm
post #1114 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Better still, get your own M.Eng in Acoustical Engineering and learn how loudspeakers and sound waves work. Speakers, at least those which are not defective, do not transmit vibrations directly from the cabinet to the floor beneath them. If you aren't fully aware of that most basic engineering concept do not bring up the subject of physics, as it's not a topic that you are qualified to make comment on.
If you want to believe in hocus pocus that's your right. It's also mine to point out hocus pocus when I see it.
It's a lot simpler than that. Measure the in room response at volume high enough to cause things to rattle. Do so with the sub only playing. If you can hear things rattle they'll show up on the chart. Put the pad under the sub, repeat the measurement. If the rattles are gone they won't be on the chart either.
It's such a simple procedure that anyone with REW or the like can do so, which is why it boggles the mind that none of the Auralex fans ever have.

Its not hocus pocus Bill, it's you in denial. I noticed a difference with my platform, from before to after, and it wasn't my imagination. I went without a platform for YEARS prior and I know exactly what it sounded like from outside the room without the platform. Yes there is a difference with the platform. Nothing you say can change that fact. You imply that "it's my imagination". That's your guys' problem; you refuse to call our experiences evidence. And that is downright irresponsible.. i'm not hearing a difference because I want to, I'm hearing a difference because there is one.
Still 1000% satisfied with my platform.
Edited by gts007 - 9/9/13 at 1:00pm
post #1115 of 1311
The S in AVSForum stands for Science
post #1116 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

but there are no measurements to support the effectiveness of a subwoofer isolation pad. Therefore, the effectiveness of subwoofer isolation pads have no basis in physics. It is that simple.

Accelerometer? Subwoofer causes vibration in the floor which vibrates anything on the floor (bookshelfs, chairs, ect) Isolation pad is suppose to stop a subwoofer cabinet from vibrating the floor. I'm sure you could measure the floor or whatever surface the subwoofer is sitting on with an accelerometer and measure before and after. There fore it would be based on physics, its that simple. Same as measuring a speaker cabinet using an accelerometer.

I don't think that Shadyj is saying that these pads have effects that can't be measured, he may be saying that they have been measured and had no measurable effect when it would be reasonable to expect that a measurable effect should be found if the device is reliably subjectively effective.

If you want to minimize the vibrations in the cabinet itself, you can rely on box mass to attenuate the mechanical vibrations of the cone, which I'd estimate at 40 dB or better. Or, you can use 2 woofer drivers and mount them back to back but driven them in phase. The mechanical vibrations cancel each other out. I've aso seen speakers hung from the ceiling on nylon fishing line.
post #1117 of 1311
Even from a physics standpoint, it doesn't make sense that a sub's cabinet vibration should shake the walls. Most of the moving parts of a driver assembly don't weight that much. The heavier ones, like the TC Sounds LMS Ultra can weigh half a kilogram, ie a whole one pound. Most don't even weigh half that much. So we are supposed to believe that the oscillation of 200 to 500 gram component is going to shake the walls, and even vibrate stuff in other rooms, via transmission through the cabinet? Or that somehow damping that cabinet vibration can lessen bass sound in other rooms?! If your sub's cabinet is actually rattling so badly that it is affecting other stuff, your sub is horrendously designed, and no isolation pad is going to compensate enough to have it play clean bass.

Again, the effectiveness of isolation pads would be easy to demonstrate, so why hasn't it ever been done? Oh that's right, we don't need measurements when we have lots of customer testimonials. Just like high priced speaker cables.
post #1118 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

i'm not hearing a difference because I want to, I'm hearing a difference because there is one.
Once again, get that degree. Or at least take AE 101, where one of the first things taught is that you don't know what you're hearing. No engineer ever makes that claim. He may have an educated opinion as to what he's hearing, but he'll always confirm or disprove it by measuring it.
Quote:
I don't think that Shadyj is saying that these pads have effects that can't be measured, he may be saying that they have been measured and had no measurable effect ...
+1.
Quote:
If you want to minimize the vibrations in the cabinet itself, you can rely on box mass to attenuate the mechanical vibrations of the cone, which I'd estimate at 40 dB or better. Or, you can use 2 woofer drivers and mount them back to back but driven them in phase. The mechanical vibrations cancel each other out.
Box mass dampens panel vibrations, but panel to panel bracing does so just as well, with a lot less weight. Dual opposed woofers cancel out the lateral forces that can make a sub 'dance', but they do nothing to reduce panel vibrations, as both drivers are working in tandem alternately pressurizing and de-pressurizing the cabinet. They would cancel out panel vibrations if one was wired with reverse polarity, but that would also cancel their acoustical output.
post #1119 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

The S in AVSForum stands for Science

I'm all for science and pursuing the truth in audio type stuff. What I don't like is that those that are happy with a product have to prove they it really does work. And those that don't believe it doesn't work just throws out there "The S is for science" and that is it (not aimed at you). Where is the evidence that these don't work as the claims suggest? Why is it only up to those that believe they work to show evidence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Again, the effectiveness of isolation pads would be easy to demonstrate, so why hasn't it ever been done? Oh that's right, we don't need measurements when we have lots of customer testimonials. Just like high priced speaker cables.

Has anyone ever produced measurements showing that they are ineffective? Or is it only up to those that are happy with the product to show they make a difference?
post #1120 of 1311
the manufacturer should prove that their product works.

with that being said, i do have two auralex platforms. i don't think they make a audible difference but they do prevent me from smashing into my subs with my vacuum cleaner.
post #1121 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Has anyone ever produced measurements showing that they are ineffective?
I have, and if you want to wade through this thread you'll find my findings somewhere.
post #1122 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

the manufacturer should prove that their product works.

If we could only get the fancy cable guys to play by those rules!
post #1123 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

The S in AVSForum stands for Science

I'm all for science and pursuing the truth in audio type stuff. What I don't like is that those that are happy with a product have to prove they it really does work. And those that don't believe it doesn't work just throws out there "The S is for science" and that is it (not aimed at you). Where is the evidence that these don't work as the claims suggest? Why is it only up to those that believe they work to show evidence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Again, the effectiveness of isolation pads would be easy to demonstrate, so why hasn't it ever been done? Oh that's right, we don't need measurements when we have lots of customer testimonials. Just like high priced speaker cables.

Has anyone ever produced measurements showing that they are ineffective? Or is it only up to those that are happy with the product to show they make a difference?

It is simple logic. If somone who is critical of the pads provides negative results, people will say that they did the experiment wrong, or in such a way that they got negative results.
post #1124 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If we could only get the fancy cable guys to play by those rules!

What?! I thought since we couldn't hear any difference, it's because our ears/speakers/electronics somehow aren't good enough biggrin.gif
post #1125 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Once again, get that degree. Or at least take AE 101, where one of the first things taught is that you don't know what you're hearing. No engineer ever makes that claim. He may have an educated opinion as to what he's hearing, but he'll always confirm or disprove it by measuring it.
+1.
Box mass dampens panel vibrations, but panel to panel bracing does so just as well, with a lot less weight. Dual opposed woofers cancel out the lateral forces that can make a sub 'dance', but they do nothing to reduce panel vibrations, as both drivers are working in tandem alternately pressurizing and de-pressurizing the cabinet. They would cancel out panel vibrations if one was wired with reverse polarity, but that would also cancel their acoustical output.

Sorry but it takes the edge off in my current environment (concerning low frequency audibility from other rooms) and I'm happy about it. The difference is real, not perceived. It didn't make a difference in my old apartment which was a modern 1st floor on top of concrete. My point has always been that there are only certain environments where it does make a difference. /debate
Edited by gts007 - 9/9/13 at 10:05pm
post #1126 of 1311
Does anyone have know if the subdude ht will help a sub sit even on a floor where there is tile and trim in front of a fireplace? The trim sits about 1/4" high if that. See pics.



post #1127 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcss View Post

Does anyone have know if the subdude ht will help a sub sit even on a floor where there is tile and trim in front of a fireplace?
Get a piece of this, cut it to size to fit under the sub:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=202015909&R=202015909#.UP66YGeYUYc
If you're straddling the floor and tile with the sub cut some 1/4 inch plywood as a filler where it sits on the floor.
post #1128 of 1311
So, I have a Sony BD Player/Speakers that I bought for super cheap at an Open Box/Clearance combo at Best Buy. It is the BDV-E780W (got it for $40, even though I had to then buy a couple extra things to complete the set).

I'm moving into an apartment at the end of September. I will be on the third floor, in the corner of the building. I believe the TV will be on the same wall as the hallway/entrance to my apartment.

I'm worried about sound travelling downstairs. Is there a way I can pull off a sub in this situation, even by possibly turning down the sub and decoupling it from the floor? I asked someone who works at the complex, and there have apparently only been complaints from neighbors when it comes to kids and stuff - that they've never heard complaints about loud music or anything. I'll try to see if I can get any more information out of them regarding how sound proof the rooms are.

I actually also just realized that this is a downfiring sub, even though I've had it laying sideways (because that's how all the stickers were facing on the sub, as well as the Sony logo). Could I reduce noise travelling downstairs by keeping the sub on its side and firing it towards the wall?

Would appreciate any feedback from Subdude owners and apartment dwellers! Thanks!
post #1129 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post


I'm worried about sound travelling downstairs. Is there a way I can pull off a sub in this situation, even by possibly turning down the sub and decoupling it from the floor?
Since there's no such thing as mechanical coupling to the floor there's also no such thing as de-coupling it from the floor. Bass travels through walls, floors and ceilings unless stopped by mass, and a lot of it.
Quote:
I actually also just realized that this is a downfiring sub, even though I've had it laying sideways (because that's how all the stickers were facing on the sub, as well as the Sony logo). Could I reduce noise travelling downstairs by keeping the sub on its side and firing it towards the wall?
Low frequency sound waves from subs are radiated omni-directionally, with equal force in all directions. It doesn't matter which way the cone faces.
post #1130 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

Its not hocus pocus Bill, it's you in denial. I noticed a difference with my platform, from before to after, and it wasn't my imagination. I went without a platform for YEARS prior and I know exactly what it sounded like from outside the room without the platform. Yes there is a difference with the platform. Nothing you say can change that fact. You imply that "it's my imagination". That's your guys' problem; you refuse to call our experiences evidence. And that is downright irresponsible.. i'm not hearing a difference because I want to, I'm hearing a difference because there is one.
Still 1000% satisfied with my platform.

Also, the placebo cured my cancer.

most of the participants here, I think, are human, and subject to all the subconscious "stuff" ("that's a technical term" - Greg Koch) that is utterly, inescpably, beyond our control regardless of mental capacity. That's why drug tests are double blind - if the person administering the drug knows whether it's placebo or not, they, despite whatever brilliance they may posess, or whatever efforts they may put into suppressing their knowledge, communicate cues that the person receiving the medication will pick up on, which will eff up the results.

when I test stuff all by myself, there's not even a third person trying to keep me from being swayed by my own subconscious effects, so I'm doubly handicapped from really perceiving the truth. But I am, I admit, very human. I still trust my ears in many settings. But I know, even as I ignore it, that my perceptions have only limited congruence with reality.

Those who are either not human at all or are objectively superhuman may, of course, ignore the realities to which most of us are subject.
Edited by JHAz - 9/17/13 at 3:05pm
post #1131 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Also, the placebo cured my cancer.
You wouldn't be the first. I know you're being facetious, but the placebo effect is so strong that it actually can cure cancer and other diseases. Consider Christian Scientists. Yes, most of them who contract fatal diseases do die despite their prayers, but some of them don't. If placebo effect can cure cancer then causing people to think they hear what they don't is easy by comparison. And no one is immune to it, not even those who know better. If you are aware of a change in your system you will hear probably a difference, whether it's there or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
post #1132 of 1311
In my particular environment, there is a real difference; it diminished the conduction of bass to adjacent rooms. That is a plain, straight-up fact. This not a perceived difference. It's not the placebo effect; it's not snake oil. I'm not hearing a difference "because I want to". Nice try though.
/debate
Edited by gts007 - 9/19/13 at 1:17pm
post #1133 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

In my particular environment, there is a real difference, not a perceived one. It's not the placebo effect; it's not snake oil. I'm not hearing a difference "because I want to". Nice try though.
/debate

 

You do realize trying to discuss this with Bill is like talking to a [Stone-Wall] ...... right ???

 

A complete waste of any of our time and energy.

 

I finally just gave up after awhile !!!

 

 

Terry

post #1134 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

In my particular environment, there is a real difference; it diminished the conduction of bass to adjacent rooms. That is a plain, straight-up fact. This not a perceived difference. It's not the placebo effect; it's not snake oil. I'm not hearing a difference "because I want to". Nice try though.
/debate

...and you have the measurements to prove it, right? ;-)

What did they come out to be?
post #1135 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

...and you have the measurements to prove it, right? ;-)

What did they come out to be?

Do you really need measurements to prove that it works on a live, resonant wood floor? My measurements are my observations, before and after, but since you snobs cop out on the placebo argument, all I can do is be happy with the difference that I experienced, and laugh when you guys falsely claim that it's my imagination. My observation is and should be as valid as a measurement. I spent next to nothing on my platform and I already said that it did not work in my previous environment. I have no bias. So you can't use that Auralex marketing argument on me.
Edited by gts007 - 9/19/13 at 2:02pm
post #1136 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

Do you really need measurements to prove that it works on a live, resonant wood floor? My measurements are my observations.
According to my observations the Earth is flat, and the sun revolves around the Earth. wink.gif
post #1137 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

According to my observations the Earth is flat, and the sun revolves around the Earth. wink.gif

Despite your facade, you don't know everything.
It didn't fix my problem, it alleviated it to a point of satisfaction. You've obviously never seen the type of floors that I have to deal with. You're invited to my place anytime, so you can become a believer of reality.
post #1138 of 1311
I can’t believe Bill is still over here talking about this subdude thing. It’s got to be one of your pet peeves Bill. I’m not being sarcastic, it’s just so funny to see you still here. biggrin.gif There is nothing that you're going to say that's going to change any minds as good as your intentions might be. wink.gif
post #1139 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

...and you have the measurements to prove it, right? ;-)

What did they come out to be?

Do you really need measurements to prove that it works on a live, resonant wood floor?

Yes. Especially when the laws of physics make up a pretty convincing argument to the contrary, and so do my life's experiences.
Quote:
My measurements are my observations, before and after,

I would be ashamed to try to make such a self-centered assertion. I have had the fact that I am not the standard of the universe and that my observations can be highly flawed impressed on me many times. I usually remember it for at least a few months afterward... ;-)
Quote:
but since you snobs cop out on the placebo argument,

It appears that you are the one who is in denial about the placebo effect which means that in fact, it is you who appear to be copping out...
Quote:
all I can do is be happy with the difference that I experienced,

As am I. Except the tone of your words suggests something a little bit different...
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and laugh when you guys falsely claim that it's my imagination.

Your protestations that you are always right and we are always wrong may be falling on deaf ears. We've been here before!
Quote:
My observation is and should be as valid as a measurement.

Why are you so uniquely gifted? Why are you so much better than us?
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I spent next to nothing on my platform

The you got what you paid for! ;-)

Quote:
and I already said that it did not work in my previous environment. I have no bias. So you can't use that Auralex marketing argument on me.

Never tried.
post #1140 of 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


Why are you so uniquely gifted? Why are you so much better than us?

I would ask you the same thing. I've search and search and have not found anyone providing evidence that this does not work. So, I'm suppose to believe you when you say it doesn't work but we're not suppose to believe those that do think it works?

I think if your going to refute what someone says you should provide evidence and instead of the "Trust me" kind of deal.

Again i've yet to see any scientific evidence showing this is just a worthless product.
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