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post #61 of 390
Like beating your head against a brick wall. At first I went from irritated to amused. Now I just let it go in one ear and out the other. Sounds like some kind of major ego issue, or something. Maybe some kind of underlying envy. Put all that energy towards something really important, I say.
post #62 of 390
Thread Starter 
Err, the statement was in response to saying that "Audio is complicated unless you're just listening to sine waves."

You're ALWAYS just listening to sine waves, its just that some combinations are more enjoyable than others.

I think the question of the enjoyability of the music and the question of the quality of the system are entirely orthagonal. They can (and actually, MUST) be answered separately as they have minimal effect on each other.

I have played the piano for 15 years and trumpet for 10. Yet, these facts are irrelevant since the question of "what music is" and "what is quality audio reproduction" are entirely separate.

Why is it that when the differences between CD players are apparent, it is ONLY when you know which player you are listening to, yet in a typical (even less-than-scientific) DBT, those differences seem to always go away? If it is hard to hear the differences in a "flawed" DBT test, what is the flaw in testing that causes those differences to disappear?

If they differences are too subtle for a DBT to distinguish, they're too subtle to spend $3000 on. After all, if the differences are real and obvious, they should be obvious in even a poorly conducted blind test, right?
post #63 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiobomber
Have the rules of evidence changed now? If I know you, and I see, and hear you rob a corner store, then what I observed with my senses is accepted as proof. I know my system, my room and my music. Taking that familiarity away is an artificial situation. Listening to music for enjoyment is not a contest. That's why DBT's don't work in most cases for audio.

John Westlake[/i]
I'm confident that if I witnessed a robbery taking place it really would not matter where these observations took place in order to be able to report them.

Why would the same not hold true for observations in audio?
post #64 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99
I'm confident that if I witnessed a robbery taking place it really would not matter where these observations took place in order to be able to report them.

Why would the same not hold true for observations in audio?
in a law court under cross exam you will be asked:

1) how good is your eye sight, do you wear glasses or contact lenses?

2) your distance from the incident? 10 m , 100m, 1000m

3) you actually saw it or heresay

4) is it a filming of movie or actually a robbery?

5) any gun shot fired? or you heard the robbers demanded money?

6) what made you think it was a robbery?

:D :D :D
post #65 of 390
and for the participants in dbt (for differences not good or bad) the following questions:

1) we are limited with using 2 channels. did you sit in the sweet spot?

2) anyone sitting in front of you, besides you and did they move around and affected the sound stage?

3) if you were sitting 3 feet on the left of the sweet spot how could you hear a balanced stereo image?

4) are you familiar with the piece of music for comparison?

5) are the music appropriate for comparison? with high mid and low frequencies, transient, dynamics?

6) how good you noticed the micro dynamics? or you just noticed the main notes?

7) how loud was the music played? too high or too low and did you feel uncomfortable?

8) how long were the tests? you felt tired after 15 min, 30 min, 1 hour?

9) after loud passage how fast your ears recovered to hear subtle transients?

:D :D :D
post #66 of 390
Quote:
It is for that reason that I've previously posted that the two camps (i.e., DBT advocates and subjectivists) always reach a dead end in these discussions.
Similar dead ends are reached in discussions with intelligent design proponents, astrology buffs, psychics, alternative medicine practitioners, and a host of other pseudo sciences.
Quote:
As I posted before, your ears and your wallet. It seems (and is) so simple.
Then why is it necessary to know or see which is being auditioned? Is it such a terrible thing to also equalize the volumes to ensure that the perceived differences aren't simply due to a dB or so change or a 0.5 dB mismatch between the left and right channels?

Quote:
PS, waveforms produced by speakers are immensely complex, unless you're listening to sine waves.
PPS, as Cowclops noted, the waveforms are sine waves. Superposition theorem and all that.
post #67 of 390
Cowclops you said: "If they differences are too subtle for a DBT to distinguish, they're too subtle to spend $3000 on. After all, if the differences are real and obvious, they should be obvious in even a poorly conducted blind test, right?"

Again it is a hobby!! I actually have a 3000 dollar player I gave to my son because I just upgraded to a 7000 dollar player. In my tests, which I conduct every night, the 7000 dollar player way out preforms my 3000 dollar player.

I did not need blind test because the 7000 dollar player is so much better than than the 3000 dollar one. This is not because of the money I spent but it is the actual performance that is better which I explained in a prior post.

This is an argument will never stop. People like myself feel emotion in music. People like you see the science in equipment. I will take my way any day so I can sit in my house with my fancy stereo and truly enjoy it.

You see Cowclops, audiophiles do not mind spending thousands and thousands of dollars on equipment because that is what we like to do. Right or wrong we strive for the best reproduction of music. If it means spending a ton of money then who cares....
post #68 of 390
diamonds, it's not the point that I particularly care how much you or anyone else spends on audio gear, or cars, or whatever.

The point is that claims of "night and day" improvement are often touted for certain components but many of those improvements seem to diminish to indistinguishable levels when something more than anecdotal evidence is requested.

And you are 100% correct. The argument will never stop because regardless of how well controlled a test is, fault will always be found to discredit it regardless of the fact that those same testing methods are accepted for virtually all other disciplines. But here I sound like a broken record...
post #69 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpu8088
in a law court under cross exam you will be asked:

1) how good is your eye sight, do you wear glasses or contact lenses?

2) your distance from the incident? 10 m , 100m, 1000m

3) you actually saw it or heresay

4) is it a filming of movie or actually a robbery?

5) any gun shot fired? or you heard the robbers demanded money?

6) what made you think it was a robbery?

:D :D :D
Yes, and it a court of law I better have the facts straight and ability to back my statement with more than anecdotal evidence or my testimony will be shredded by a good lawyer and totally discredited.

No different than it should be for claims of "night and day", or even "subtle" differences in audio.
post #70 of 390
diamonds, I fully agree with your last post. IMO, it proves that all this super high-end audiophile thing is not so much about sound quality, but about how being able to spend tons of money makes you feel - usually very satisfied, regardless of whether it's spent on a $5,000 CD player or a $5,000 bottle of wine. And yes, chances are that the $5,000 bottle will be better than a $15 bottle. It's just that financially constrained folks often tend to go into extreme detail and argument about exactly how much better it is :)
post #71 of 390
cheap wine get you drunk or give you headache quickly while more expensive ones slowly

low fi makes you want to turn off the system quickly while hi fi makes you listen more before you turn off the system
post #72 of 390
Quote:
cheap wine get you drunk or give you headache quickly while more expensive ones slowly



.... IMO, it proves that all this super high-end audiophile thing is not so much about sound quality, but about how being able to spend tons of money makes you feel - usually very satisfied, regardless of whether it's spent on a $5,000 CD player or a $5,000 bottle of wine. And yes, chances are that the $5,000 bottle will be better than a $15 bottle. It's just that financially constrained folks often tend to go into extreme detail and argument about exactly how much better it is

Pretty much all wine gives me a headache - does not stop me though. :)


In the end, it's all what that last 0.1%, 1%, 10%, or whatever is worth to you.

I'm not wealthy, but not struggling either; so I usually (but not always) need more than just a warm and fuzzy to part with too much $$. No slam / no criticism intended, merely a statement of fact for my situation.
post #73 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Similar dead ends are reached in discussions with intelligent design proponents, astrology buffs, psychics, alternative medicine practitioners, and a host of other pseudo sciences.
Hey Chu, I completely agree, thus my repeated reference to religion. (As an aside, the intelligent design proponents probably would consider evolution to be a "pseudo science").

Quote:
Then why is it necessary to know or see which is being auditioned? Is it such a terrible thing to also equalize the volumes to ensure that the perceived differences aren't simply due to a dB or so change or a 0.5 dB mismatch between the left and right channels?
I'm not sure how this relates at all to my "your ears and your wallet" comment. If these debates (seemingly but inevitably) reach a dead end, then there never may be a resolution or "religious" conversion.

With respect to your comment, however, to one who believes in the validity of DBTs, it is indeed necessary to do as you propose. It is, as you know, firstly the validity of DBTs and secondly the conclusions to be drawn from DBTs that the subjectivist questions.

---------------------------------
Ron Party
post #74 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
Err, the statement was in response to saying that "Audio is complicated unless you're just listening to sine waves."

You're ALWAYS just listening to sine waves, its just that some combinations are more enjoyable than others.
You've misquoted. Actually I said "waveforms produced by speakers are immensely complex, unless you're listening to sine waves."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
The whole point of fourier theory is that any waveform can be expressed as a sum of sinusoidal waves.
There you go again, confusing science with reality. Fourier transforms are an approximation tool, which allow study of reality. They are not reality. Check out this article.
http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioM...etry/asym.html
post #75 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99
I'm confident that if I witnessed a robbery taking place it really would not matter where these observations took place in order to be able to report them.

Why would the same not hold true for observations in audio?
You'll notice I included "If I know you". Familiarity is an important criterion. Most DBT's are held in unfamiliar circumstances (room, gear, music). A-B'ing, sampling times and frequency, pressure to perform, these are all unnatural things. I could draw examples with the eyewitness analogy, but it would be redundant. I trust my hearing in my chosen circumstances, and I will spend money when my experiential testing justifies it.
post #76 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ
And as to closed minds, Carl Sagan had something interesting to say about having an open mind:

" On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity, then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all." Carl Sagan, Pasadena lecture, 1987
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Sagan. That's why I purchase gear based on extended home demos.

There is a lunatic fringe in audio, that believes in every absurdity that comes down the pipe (and there are plenty of them). These gullible types are at the extreme end of the audio spectrum. You, on the other hand, are at the extreme in the other direction. So much so, that you won't even listen to anything in fear that your belief tree will be shaken. I'm in the middle. Call me a skeptical audiophile.
post #77 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonds
My invitation still stands from the last post!! You and all the other skeptics can still come to Tucson and hear my system that I put together for quite a lot of money. Like I said, I will be happy to go a purchase a lesser system and have it in the exact same spot as my system and we can then A/B the two. We then can then discuss which is better and why. It would be worth it to me to go spend a couple grand on a lesser system just to prove a point.
Fortunately it won't cost you a couple of grand. These guys claim that all you need is a $300 player and a $500 receiver. Hook em up to your speakers and off you go. I know what will happen, having tried to live with a system like this just about 6 months ago. The sound is all there, but the soul is gone.
post #78 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiobomber
Fortunately it won't cost you a couple of grand. These guys claim that all you need is a $300 player and a $500 receiver. Hook em up to your speakers and off you go. I know what will happen, having tried to live with a system like this just about 6 months ago. The sound is all there, but the soul is gone.

You are correct!!! No soul, no color, no emotion...
post #79 of 390
Maybe were all just a dying breed folks. I think it all started with those Asian musicians with their Suzuki method and their robotic Olympians. Now people think that so many of these popular "pseudo-soul singers" actually have feeling to their vocals, when they're just all about showing off what they can do with their voice. And don't even get me started on Dianetics, which teaches that you can control human emotions by mathematics. I guess pretty soon, psychiatric drugs will have us all unaffected by emotions anyway. We'll all be in The Twilight Zone.
post #80 of 390
When I started in this 10 years ago, I read all I could to learn as much as I could. I read Hometheater Magazine, Sound&Vision to start. I learned about HT and HT products from those sources. I also said that I would never spend all that money on a system. But that did not last to long. Then I decided that I wanted one for myself. So my very first system was a Yamaha Prologic receiver with my pioneer stereo speakers, a center and sub from Definitive Technology and NO DVD player.

That held me over for a while. Then I noticed that Def Tech had a new pair of speakers that they were coming out with. The pro400's. I went to listen to them and they just blew what I had out of the water. So I got them. But as time went on, I knew that there must be something more. So I asked, what can I do to edge me along. My dealer said "think about an amp." So I did. I got one, and from that point on it was over. I knew that there was a whole world of sound that I never new about. Every upgrade since then, wether it was my getting my Bryston 4b-ST to go with my 5b-ST. or if it was getting my Krell showcase to replace my denon 3300 has made a difference. Or eventually changing my speakers to JM Labs. Or, most recently getting an Esoteric DV50S to use as my cd player has made a significant improvement in my system. Now I have a friend who has a setup of his own. Nothing like mine but good none the less. He has different motives for his setup then I do for mine, so I know that he will never have a setup like mine. He may appreciate what he hears in my setup for HT, but he has told me that he does not think that he can hear a difference in 2ch. That is fine. All I know is what I experience. I absolutely love my setup.

So all this trying to break down things and put them in compartments seems silly to me. Just sit back listen and enjoy.
post #81 of 390
Quote:
Fortunately it won't cost you a couple of grand. These guys claim that all you need is a $300 player and a $500 receiver. Hook em up to your speakers and off you go. I know what will happen, having tried to live with a system like this just about 6 months ago. The sound is all there, but the soul is gone.
Is this your interpretation or do you have specific references for this generalization?
post #82 of 390
Quote:
This is an argument will never stop. People like myself feel emotion in music. People like you see the science in equipment. I will take my way any day so I can sit in my house with my fancy stereo and truly enjoy it.
Diamonds, Rammitinski, most of us recognize the difference between music and gear. It's exhilirating to hang glide, but the equipment better be founded in science.

It is quite extraordinary to see such basic -- even assumed -- logical distinctions have to be explained.

And aren't we now in the next phase of the typical thread like this, the part where the personal attacks start? Because the 'subjectivists' basically have no debate points, they attack the debater. Something along these lines: a) "You have a crummy system, hence can't resolve fine details" b) "it's not my fault you have bad ears", c) "You can't appreciate what a trumpet can sound like cause you haven't heard my system". d) "You're envious about my system", e) "some uf us listen to music, sad that it's just science to you."

And MikeDuke, your post brings nothing to the table. There is a debate going on here, and your post is basically "stop having a debate".
post #83 of 390
So experience is Nothing? I was just attempting to bring my experiences to the table. I feel that debate is a good thing. But this place is also a "fourm" for personal experiences. Sorry if I don't have the right to voice what I experienced .
Later :) .
post #84 of 390
Sorry Mike, maybe I'm a little moody this morning.
post #85 of 390
Are we there yet?
post #86 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901
Are we there yet?
LOL!
post #87 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901
Are we there yet?
Almost. Last unresolved issue is how science relates to emotion (if at all) :)
post #88 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Is this your interpretation or do you have specific references for this generalization?
Unfortunately most of the references were in the deleted thread. But how about this one from Cowclops:

Some $3,000 transport that can't easily be proven to be superior to a $200 5 disc changer from Tweeter will be extremely unlikely to increase my enjoyment of the music (though it will quite rapdily lighten my wallet).

Ask CharlesJ where the "perfect sound" magic dollar figure lies for amps and players.

I was at a friend's house last year. He had a nice system; Adcom changer, Bel Canto DAC, Sonic Frontiers pre, 200W Anthem power, B&W N802. The sound was boring. Music dragged, none of the pace and ryhthm that give music life. So we changed out the Adcom multi-disc player for an Anthem CD1, and the system woke up and really started to boogie. Everyone noticed, and my friend and I were the only audiophiles, the other three listeners weren't. I know, it's anecdotal. We should have blindfolded each other to figure out if we really were enjoing th music. Oh well...
post #89 of 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoareu99
In the end, it's all what that last 0.1%, 1%, 10%, or whatever is worth to you.
Well if the 0.1%, 1% and 10% are in terms of THD, you will hear the differences my friend. Soundstage is the easiest that one notices, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnElliott
Diamonds, Rammitinski, most of us recognize the difference between music and gear. It's exhilirating to hang glide, but the equipment better be founded in science. "
You bet they are! That's why you should go get yourself a copy of Stereophile and read the stereo component reviews. They usually contain measurements and neatly plotted graphs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnElliott
And aren't we now in the next phase of the typical thread like this, the part where the personal attacks start? Because the 'subjectivists' basically have no debate points, they attack the debater. Something along these lines: a) "You have a crummy system, hence can't resolve fine details" b) "it's not my fault you have bad ears", c) "You can't appreciate what a trumpet can sound like cause you haven't heard my system". d) "You're envious about my system", e) "some uf us listen to music, sad that it's just science to you."
And you self-proclaimed 'objectives' usually counter arguments about measured differences with something along the line of: "but these measured differences are below the threshold of perception by the human ear".

We'll it's time you self-proclaimed scientists offered proof as to why we cannot hear the differences, rather than the other way around.
post #90 of 390
There you go again, confusing science with reality. Fourier transforms are an approximation tool, which allow study of reality. They are not reality. Check out this article.
[/quote]

Just a quick clarification for audiobomber:
Cowclops is correct - by Fourier analysis, any arbitrary waveform can be broken down into a series of sine waves. It is only an approximation when the Fourier series is truncated (higher order terms thrown out).

In fact the article you link to states this in end. This article mearly points out that phase information is not captured in spectral analysis. Of course, both magnitude and phase of the Fourier components are required to represent the original waveform. Both the time domain waveform and the frequency domain Fourier series are equivalent ways of representing the same signal. Both are representations which allow study of the signal and both are "reality".
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