Inifinty speakers and bang for your buck - Page 9

Originally Posted by Tacoboy

Did Infinity ever make a Beta 60?

Originally Posted by Tacoboy

In my 11' by 17' room I have Infinity Beta 40s front, Beta 20s rears, Beta C360 center and an Outlaw Sub.
(Onkyo TX-SR606 & 42" LCD).
Can anyone else claim to do a better overkill in a small room?

Originally Posted by plhart

No. No Beta 60 was ever proposed.

I do seem to remember that the Beta line did include an 8" 2-way when I first became aboard Harman's Consumer Audio Division. That model was scheduled to be called the Beta 30. That model was deleted within the first two weeks I became the Beta series speaker design engineer.

Originally Posted by Tacoboy

What speakers would be a step up (for the best price) from the Infinity Betas?

Originally Posted by fiddlestyx

Well the Beta 20s can be had for ~$50 shipped from the Harmon eBay store so its pretty hard to beat those prices...it might take you a bit of time getting 5 Beta 20s since they are sold on eBay through an auction format so you'll have to be a bit patient.

Originally Posted by Looneybomber

I've never heard the rockets, but I've heard the Vifa tweeter they use in the rockets. I like it! I'd really like to use it on my next...well make that like 3rd in line, DIY project. I need to stop starting projects without finishing previous ones.

The question though, why do you want to replace your current Infinity setup?

Originally Posted by Tacoboy

The Infinity's do a get job, really good bang for the buck.
I'm really getting into the Audio scene, so I'm trying to come up with a good reason, to try different speakers.
I could sell off my current 5.1 for a good price as it would include 2 Infinity Beta 40s, which a few people are looking for and they are nearly impossible to find.
I also recently saw an article were Infinity Classica series (which use the same CMMD drivers as the Betas) was slightly beaten by 3 other brands.
And AV123 has really been dropping the prices of their speakers.

Originally Posted by Tacoboy

What speakers would be a step up (for the best price) from the Infinity Betas?

Originally Posted by plhart 



Hi Tacoboy-


For a step up to the Beta Series I'd recommend taking a look at the Revel Concerta series. Some of the Concerta models use the same crossover boards, but with upgraded parts as well as the same port tubes.


Mark G. was Revel's Chief Engineer at the time I was designing the Betas over five years ago. Revel speakers have always been produced in much lower quantities than Infinity speakers. So it has always made economic sense within Harman's consumer division to share parts across brands whenever possible.


Revel speakers have also historically had a much smaller dealer base, most of whom have proper sound room demonstration facilities. Thus to offer more value/dollar for these dealers Revel was able to spend more on the Concerta Series cabinet rigidity, raw driver motor and cone parts and, as mentioned, crossover parts than I was able to spend on the Betas.


Mark is one heck of a loudspeaker designer but he like myself, always had to have our designs go through Harman's Multi-channel Listening Lab double-blind testing facility and beat, sight-unseen at least three other competitors models, identified by the dealers as being the most often encountered by price and configuration within the dealers' own listening rooms. Like the Infinity Betas Mark's Revel Concerta speakers where never released for production unless every model could sonically outperform any competitor.


Happy listening


Patrick Hart

Originally Posted by Ka7niq 

The Infinity IL 60's (I own them) do have 24 db crossovers... Sean Olive told me they were actually beating the Prelude MTS in blind listening tests so badly, they had to turn the bass level on the mighty IL 60 down (They did not want to embarrass the Prelude MTS their boss Floyd Tool helped design) !... The IL 60 is almost "perfection" in a speaker, absolutely RULER FLAT. Sean Olive sent me the Labs on it!
It is indeed, an impressive acheivement, IF Flat Response is the goal.
On the very best recordings, and movies, (I have the big IL 36 center) the IL 60 will drop your jaw...

Originally Posted by Ka7niq 

I will try my best to respond to the last 2 posters.
Yes, the IL 60 and the IL 36 Center will drop some Jaws, especially IF you take the time to use the RABOS equalizer for the bass. W/O using the RABOS on your IL 60, the speaker will sound "Boomy" if you crank up the bass. This is because of the room peak your room, and every room has. Now, if you do not RABOS your bass on the IL 60, and increase the level enough to provide some "warmth", the IL 60 can sound very boomy. To put it as simply as I can, a NON RABOSED Infinity IL 60 can sound "bright".
This is because the Infinity Engineers were "counting on you" to USE the RABOS Feature!
LOL, I Dogged the Infinity IL 60 in a review, stupid me! I was to blame, not the speaker! I had no earthly idea how much the RABOS could effect the TOTAL sound of the Speaker!
I stupidly thought the RABOS effected only the bass! The subwoofer in the IL 60 crosses over at about 125 hz! This means that unless you can turn up the bass, you will have a HOLE up at around 125 hz. Again, w/o RABOS, and because of the low bass capability of the IL 60, you will get BOOM when you increase the woofer level.
It is true, the IL 60 is about the flattest speaker Ever Designed. I have seen the Lab reports. However, the Infinity engineers intended to make a ruler flat speaker with the Infinity IL 60, and then allow the user to crank in the right amount of Bass below 125 HZ for their ears and room. A slight increase in Bass below 125 hz imparts what is known as a "warmth curve", (downward sloping response) and is what makes a speaker more listenable.

IF you can find a pair of Infinity IL 60's, especially with the large Infinity IL 36 center channel, RUN, do not walk, and buy them! If you set them up properly (be sure and RABOS them), you will be hard pressed to find such an impressive speaker system, especially on good recordings/movies!
They were designed back when Floyd Toole and his team of Canadien speaker engineers were still there. Sean Olive told me that Infinity's best engineer, at that time, did the crossovers on them.
LOL, Sean Olive also told me that in double blind listening tests, they were kicking the ass of the Mighty Prelude MTS so badly, that the Infinity Engineers :handicapped: the IL 60, by turning down it's bass level! The Prelude MTS has a good amount of power, on it's woofer section. However, because of it's futuristic looking design, it simply does not have the amount of volume for it's woofer, as the big IL 60 does.

Very very Few speakers can match the sheer bass power and quality of a pair of Infinity IL 60's, but they MUST be RABOSED to achieve this.

I promise you, you will never need subwoofers, with a pair of properly set up IL 60's.

I have seen IL 60's go for about 500.00 a pair used locally, here in Florida. There was a pair on Craigslist with the big Infinity IL 36 3 way center speaker for 650.00.

I think it is a safe thing to say that NOTHING will equal them, or even come close, at that price!

Originally Posted by plhart 

IMHO Until Audyssey's MultEQ XT came on the scene the splice of any subwoofer to any satellite was a real crap shoot based necessarily on the real world physics of long frequency lengths versus room interaction(s) with the listener at the listening position.


Because the CSW-10 has built-in RABOS it has the potential to smooth it's primary speaker/room interaction peak which in my assessment makes it better able to sound psycho-acoustically to the listener like it is "mating better". Because if the RABOS calibration is done well (at 80-100Hz max) through repeated tries to get it really right in the calibration process the CSW-10 will indeed be mating better with any given satellite.


As I intimated at the beginning though IMO it is only with the additional further precise (but automatically performed) calibration of at least some version of Audyssey that the subwoofer-to-satellite splice has the potential capability of approaching becoming undetectable and "seamless" to the listener(s) at the RABOS + Audyssey calibrated listening position(s). This is because the satellite roll-off curve and the bump or dip the satellite's designed-in curve takes also needs to be smoothed to ensure that seamlessly spliced transition.

Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide 

Thanks for the comments. As for RABOS, I am somewhat familiar with it since I have a pair of Revel B12 subs which also has it, although I think Revel has a different name for it. As I understand it however, it's identical. Maybe plhart can confirm this (or deny it).

With that said however, keep in mind RABOS was designed in the days before Audessey Multieq XT 32. That does a much better job IMO of calibrating/integrating the subs than RABOS. I realize that's not really apples to apples since it is comparing a separate sub crossed over at 80 or even 60 Hz to left & right mains as opposed to a powered tower with integrated subs crossed over at 125 Hz, but still, I don't see why XT 32 couldn't do an even better job integrating them than RABOS on it's on.

Edit - just did a search and found that none other than plhart himself also feels this way:

Originally Posted by Ka7niq 

Well, I have had Audyssey, as well as several other automatic EQ Schemes. I kind of like RABOS better. Here is why. Every room has a big resonant peak somewhere.
Pull down that peak, and you normally get good bass.
My problems with Audyssey, and other auto EQ schemes is this. Go ahead and auto EQ your room. Then, move the mic a 1/4 inch, and you get a whole new set of EQ Curves!
That "cured me" from Audyssey, and YPAO, and the other schemes that EQ your room automatically.
LOL, and I was gonna buy the Trinova Processor!

I am not anti eq, or anti tone controls, I just trust my own ears more then some automatic device.

Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide 

Which version of Audessey specifically? Have you actually measured the differences they each made in your room?

FWIW, Audessey can also help tame the biggest peak, and then also still do a whole lot more besides. If you're not already familiar with it, do a search for Audessey XT 32's sub eq capabilities (or, the now discontinued SVS dual sub eq unit, which was basically XT 32's sub eq predecessor and about the same), and read up on it and how you can place the mic in several different listening positions. I realize it's an approximate 10 year older technology, but frankly, RABOS is kind of primitive by comparison.

Originally Posted by Ka7niq 

It was the Audyssey built into a top of the line Onkyo Integra, and also in a top of the line old Denon.
Maybe I did something wrong ? I am open to that.
But seriously, this has been an awesome Infinity thread, it really has! Let's try to stay on topic about Infinity speakers, ok ?
Kind of hoping that Patrick guy who designed the Infinity Beta Series speakers will return to the thread ?

Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide 

Based on what you're saying, I'm fairly certain it was probably an older version of Audyssey, perhaps even the one with no sub eq at all. If that was the case, then yes, RABOS would obviously have been better through sheer default.

And as far as I'm concerned, we have never left the topic of Infinity speakers when we are discussing ways to make them sound even better.

Originally Posted by GLBright 

Thanks Ka7niq for your valuable input. My IL60s have been treated with RABOS. I had to buy the kit separately, but it was well worth it. Now I'm in the process of treating the RABOSed woofers, along with a DT PF1500, to a second go round with a BFD 1394. Maybe I can get the low bass really flat at Position 1.

Bought these speakers sound unheard. Best stupid decision I ever made in my life.

Originally Posted by Ka7niq 

And ...... what Infinity Speakers do you have ?