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Inifinty speakers and bang for your buck - Page 3

post #61 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangedup View Post

MDhaliwal-

So a amp that only pulls 4amps of power like the Pioneer 74 and 72 can have its power supply taxed harder when powering muti. channels. Compared to the Denon 3805 that pulls 7.1amps. There is a sound difference between the two receivers. The Pioneer does not have as warm of a sound as the Denon or Marantz. You will lose some detail in your mid range. Listen to different receivers and you will hear what I am talking about.

Thank you for your insight as well!

Yeah, the real issue is hearing all of these products. Some places will have the receiver, but not the speakers and some the opposite. One has practically everything, but none of the receivers set up for trial.

I actually purchased this Pioneer over the Denon's I originally set out looking for. I previewed them a few times and went with my 3rd consecutive Pioneer, though I was determined not to. I have to say, I have been exceptionally pleased with the performance of the unit. I guess I either have to find a different set of speakers to look into or consider eBaying the receiver? Swapping it out wouldn't be the end of the world. I know I'm not overly impressed by the hyped iPod integration. Just as long as I don't bring home a Denon 5805, I'm probably in the clear!

I did find a pair of 50's today. Open box pricing wasn't that great, IMO and they weren't set up to listen to. In fact, for the nearly 30 minutes I stood around in Circuit City, no one came near close to even asking to help me. Its a shame too, I would have considered purchasing them if someone had, though from what's been said, maybe I'm better off that I didn't. If someone else is interested, they're $379 each in Kildeer, IL.

Do you have a secondary suggestion for speakers to use with my setup? If your curious, I had started another thread, which does list all of my gear in it, since I wouldn't want to hijack this thread!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=658124
post #62 of 282
BangedUp you post someone elses explanation of RMS? Why not just get to your point?

Your trying to tell a professional speaker designer that manufacturers dont play with RMS specifications? Heck even garden variety electronic techs like me see them doing that every day.

Some will say 100 watts channel RMS @1khz
Others will say 100 watts channel RMS, but will only measure it with 2 channels driven ...
etc

And PLHart talks about how important the transformer is, and you are saying "no its about amps pulled"? How silly is that, if you knew your stuff, you'd know that a large transformer will keep the real current high for the amp circuits, so they have "amps pulled" for the dynamic peaks in the audio.

If the individual amp circuits ask the transformer for more power ( for example during a canon shot in a movie) and the transformer and capacitors don't have that power stored ... by then its TOO LATE, and the dynamic peak has passed, no matter how many amps the receiver "pulls" from the wall socket.
post #63 of 282
So, this is starting to make my day job seem like a walk in the park!

I think I still may pursue the Beta speakers. I'll probably want to replace my JBL center channel as well for a Beta series. Without having seen the Beta 360 center channel, is it feasible to place that on the top of a TV? By dimensions, it looks to be about 2" deeper than the top of my Samsung 56" DLP, but I can't speak for weight. Anyone out there have that center channel and have a placement suggestion?
post #64 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangedup View Post

jdurbin-

When it comes to speakers it is not their job to change the sound of the music (color the sound), like Klipsch does. Just cup your hands over your mouth and talk......you will sound different.

A common problem is when people do an A B comparesent using the same volume level when comparing Klipsch vs Infinity. Two reason why this is bad. 1) Klipsch is VERY efficient. They have a sensitivity ratting of 95 to 97db. People mistake loud for clarity. Sensitivity has nothing to with sound quality. 2) The loud back ground noise of a retail environment is not ideal for A B comparing. The way the human ear works is by the sound waves hitting the muscle and bones in the ear. The louder the sound, the tighter your muscles get, not allowing you to hear all frequencies. It is a way your ears protect themselves. When you turn the sound down, your ears ring. That ringing in your ears is the muscles relaxing.

I hope this helps and I hope N.F.M. as a good return policy.

I've been around long enough to know a few things about audio (I bought my first stereo with my paper route money almost 30 years ago and was into brands like KEF 20 years ago.)

1) The speakers were in dedicated listening rooms so there wasn't any ambient noise to interfere with the audition;
2) I am well aware of the differences in efficiency between Klipsch and virtually anything else. We 'level-matched' the two brands of speakers by ear to get a rough comfort level that they were about the same in volume. Admittedly, that isn't as good as using a RatShack meter but it was good enough for our purposes.
3) The wisecrack about Klipsch isn't merited. I understand that a speaker's purpose is to accurately recreate the music as it was recorded. That's why I don't even consider a speaker until I read reviews with FR graphs showing a (fairly) flat response. Saying that any speaker with a horn tweeter is inherently inferior to a traditional tweeter isn't much different than an electrostatic fan claiming that box speakers are definitionally inferior to flat panel speakers. Different strokes for different folks. There is no law of physics that says that non-horn tweeters will do a better job of accurately reproducing the sound as it was recorded.
post #65 of 282
The good thing about the Betas is they come with an excellent center channel. That sub gets great reviews too.

But shop aggressively, I would aim for about $250 each for the 5 speakers, and maybe $400 for the 650 watt sub. Companies are discounting these, but finding them is the problem.

If you cant get them that low, once you get close to $2000, theres other brands that are better IMHO.
post #66 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

Interesting comments on the Beta series guys. I designed the entire series with the exception of the C250 and ES250 which was done by Brian C.

The Beta series was basically finished in November 2003. The speakers are made in Harman's Tijuana facility using a European hard vinyl that was originally employed on the Harman-Europe (since closed down) designed Alpha series.

All speakers in the series are of medium-high sensitivity which means for a 2.83 volt input they'll output an average of between 87.5dB for the least efficient Beta 10 to 90.5dB for the Beta 50.

All Beta speakers are rated at 8 ohms but the two three-ways, the 40s and the 50s get down to 4 ohms between 150-300Hz. By edict, no current Harman, JBL, Infinity or Revel speakers can measure below 4 ohms as was often the case with the Infinities in the past.

Many models of the new lower cost Revel series are close clones to the Beta speakers with different, non-CMMD drivers. Even the crossover boards in certain models are the same but with slightly different value components which better match the characteristics of the Revel drivers. Note however that there are a couple of Revel models which have no Beta equivalent and vice versa.

The Revel B12 is a CSW10 with a black painted cone and a different grille. This sub was the the best I've yet designed. It'll hit 104.5 dB at 1 meter at full output and was the source of much investigation after I left Harman because in many situations it could outperform, sound quality-wise, the big $4000 Revel 15" sub with passive.

All Beta speakers went through Harman's double-blind listening Multi Channel Listening Lab and beat out each of four competitive models (selected by Infinity sales) in its price point. They went up against B&Ws, Def Tech, Bostons, Polks and I believe (in a couple of instances) Klipsch.

Hope this helps. I'll be happy to answer questions.

Excellent response. I am very happy with my CSW-10 (and with customer service sending me a free RABOS kit since my 70%-discounted floor model didn't have one!)

After I read the reviews in www.ultimateav.com of the Betas and the Revels I investigated both. Revel has very poor distribution so I have no opportunity to listen to them but reading between the lines of the reviews I came to the conclusion that the Infinity Betas for 20% less were the better value of the two.

When I auditioned the Betas at Nebraska Furniture Mart I was impressed with them (compared to older Infinities) but I ended up purchasing Klipsch Reference Series. The Klipsch were being closed out at 45% off MSRP whereas the new-in-box Betas were 20% off MSRP so perhaps I subconsciously perceived greater value from the Klipsch alternative.

Nonetheless, I think you should be proud of the Betas. They clearly have excellent fit and finish and they sound excellent.
post #67 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

BangedUp you post someone elses explanation of RMS? Why not just get to your point?

Your trying to tell a professional speaker designer that manufacturers dont play with RMS specifications? Heck even garden variety electronic techs like me see them doing that every day.

While I chose Klipsch Reference Series over Infinity Betas I am very happy with the Infinity CSW-10 and I appreciate plhart's contributions to this thread. It's not often that we get a speaker designer to come in and discuss his product. This has been one of the best threads I have read in a while here.
post #68 of 282
Could i run Beta 40's at 6 oms rather than the recommended 8oms? or would that overheat my little yammy 757? and if i can would there be eny point sound wise?
Thanks
Will.

And yes its fantastic that a designer for this series is taking some time out to answer questions.
post #69 of 282
Look at the review I referenced at Ultimate AV and check out the impedence curve in the measurements page. The impedence graph is not a simple flat line at a single impedence. It varies with frequency.
post #70 of 282
Quote:


I think I still may pursue the Beta speakers. I'll probably want to replace my JBL center channel as well for a Beta series. Without having seen the Beta 360 center channel, is it feasible to place that on the top of a TV? By dimensions, it looks to be about 2" deeper than the top of my Samsung 56" DLP, but I can't speak for weight. Anyone out there have that center channel and have a placement suggestion?

Michael,
The Beta 360 appears to be much the same size and design of my IL36. It weighs about 35 lbs. Setting it on top of your TV would be iffy at best. It can't be worse than mine which would make it excellent. Superb timbre matching with main speakers.

Greg
post #71 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLBright View Post

Michael,
The Beta 360 appears to be much the same size and design of my IL36. It weighs about 35 lbs. Setting it on top of your TV would be iffy at best. It can't be worse than mine which would make it excellent. Superb timbre matching with main speakers.

Greg


So, out of curiosity, where did you place your center channel? The 360 appears to be about 2" deeper than the little shelf on the top of my 56" DLP that fits my current center fairly well. A combo of the weight and the extra depth may be too much though.

I was thinking of clearing off a shelf off my TV stand, though that would require me to retire my 300 disk CD changer to make room for the cable box, Xbox 360 and DVD player on the bottom shelf, so that the center wouldn't have to be on the floor practically. The Mac Mini needs to stay on the upper shelf though!
post #72 of 282
This thread has been very helpful as I have been a longtime fan of Infinity speakers but have not purchased anything new since I bought my Kappa 8's in 1989. I really like the sound of these speakers and have been using them as main channels in my music and surround setups for many years. I have gone through several center/surround mates for them including Boston's Lynnfield VR series which have worked well with them.

Now that I am designing a dedicated theatre I am thinking of possibly selling the Kappa's and getting a new 7.1 system. I was considering the Beta's but when I auditioned them yesterday I was not very impressed with them. I am not knocking anyone here who already purchased these speakers. They sound very good as a complete system and for the discounted deals you can get on them they are an excellent "bang for the buck". I myself had much higher expectations for an Infinity system after spending so many years listening to my Kappas.

My question is for any past or present Kappa owners reading this thread. What have you decided on when putting together a 7 channel system? Did you stay with your current speakers or move to something different? I may decide to keep my Kappas and mate them with Bipoles from Definitive or Aperion.
Thanks for any thoughts,
JD
post #73 of 282
I'm sorry to say I don't have any questions about Beta 40s or 50s, but I do have some Infinity questions, and I'd love to sneak in a Harman question if you extremely wise chaps wouldn't mind. Also, thank you plhart, for stopping by to enlighten us.

My first question is, my wife and I currently live in a small apartment, and I'm using Primus 150s for the fronts, a C25 for the center and no surrounds. When we move later this year, I'd love to fill out the rest of the speakers, but I'd really like some suggestions as to what to use. Should I stick with the Primus series or look to start over? I'm very happy with the sound of the Primus even over the JBL HTS series I had (before we were robbed).

On top of this, I'm curious about a sub. I currently don't have one, and since we're in an apartment, it's okay with me for now. I'm not a very smart man when it comes to audio, other than the basics. Is a 10 good for most situations? Would the PS-8 be a little underpowered in a basement room, but enough for a main floor living room situation? I know it's hard to speculate since we haven't actually found the right house yet, but I don't want to miss out on the knowledge in this thread.

Extra Credit: I am currently running all of this off of an HK AVR65. I bought it probably a week after it hit the streets, and to me it still sounds pretty good. It's extremely loud when it needs to be, and never seems to have any trouble with highs or lows. My question is (And maybe you guys will even be able to enlighten me on Denon etc instead) should I consider upgrading to a 340 or 440 at some point? Or should I now steer away from HK as an amp source?

Thanks again everyone! I greatly appreciate the Infinity / Harman International knowledge here.
post #74 of 282
Originally posted by MDhaliwal
Quote:


So, out of curiosity, where did you place your center channel? The 360 appears to be about 2" deeper than the little shelf on the top of my 56" DLP that fits my current center fairly well. A combo of the weight and the extra depth may be too much though.

I have the center mounted on shelving beneath a wall-mounted 48x80 Draper screen. As important as timbre matching is, I feel that in order to get as close to as seamless a front soundstage as possible, the tweeter/mid-range cluster should be as close to level with the main speakers as possible. My center is about 9 inches below the mains with no hope of ever rising higher.

Oh, and retire something? Never. Just readjust the shelving.

Greg
post #75 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veeper View Post

Is a 10 good for most situations? Would the PS-8 be a little underpowered in a basement room, but enough for a main floor living room situation? I know it's hard to speculate since we haven't actually found the right house yet, but I don't want to miss out on the knowledge in this thread.

Have a look in the 'Sub' section for more ideas on size and performance.Right now i have an Omni S10 sub & Beta 40s, i also live in an appartment so a sub eny bigger than the S10 would be wasted.
post #76 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veeper View Post

Is a 10 good for most situations? Would the PS-8 be a little underpowered in a basement room, but enough for a main floor living room situation? I know it's hard to speculate since we haven't actually found the right house yet, but I don't want to miss out on the knowledge in this thread.

Have a look in the 'Sub' section for more ideas on size and performance.Right now i have an Omni S10 sub & Beta 40s, i also live in an appartment so a sub eny bigger than the S10 would be wasted.
Will.

oops sry !
post #77 of 282
Think of the sub, as half your system.
In a 5.1 system the sub isn't the sixth speaker ..
its the bottom half of the first 5 speakers.

After all, the sub has to do ALL of the lowest frequencies, and those low frequencies require much more power than the high frequencies...


So if you spend 400 bucks on a receiver, and 600 bucks on 5 speakers .... think about spending at least 400 to 500 on the subwoofer... you wont regret it.
post #78 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

Think of the sub, as half your system.
In a 5.1 system the sub isn't the sixth speaker ..
its the bottom half of the first 5 speakers.

After all, the sub has to do ALL of the lowest frequencies, and those low frequencies require much more power than the high frequencies...


So if you spend 400 bucks on a receiver, and 600 bucks on 5 speakers .... think about spending at least 400 to 500 on the subwoofer... you wont regret it.

That's a great way to think about it. Thanks a bunch. I'll make sure to go read up on as much as I can in the sub area. Thanks again.
post #79 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLBright View Post

Originally posted by MDhaliwal


I have the center mounted on shelving beneath a wall-mounted 48x80 Draper screen. As important as timbre matching is, I feel that in order to get as close to as seamless a front soundstage as possible, the tweeter/mid-range cluster should be as close to level with the main speakers as possible. My center is about 9 inches below the mains with no hope of ever rising higher.

Oh, and retire something? Never. Just readjust the shelving.

Greg

Cool. So I think I'll use my newly cleared shelf for the center channel. It would place it right below the Samsung DLP and should be about half way to 2/3's of the way up on the front channels. The receiver I have does an excellent job, IMO, at calibrating itself for use, so setup should be fast!

Too late for the CD changer. Its been moved to the dinning room until its fate is decided. I recently bought the new Apple Mac Mini. I have access to about 7000 songs on it, without the huge box. It'll also pass my DTS tracks for me as well and play burned CD media, which were my two last reasons for having that CD unit. I'm kinda digging the new open area I have. Fiancé approved too.....which is good, because she may not completely realize the size of the Infinity speakers I'm looking at!
post #80 of 282
Quote:


Originally posted by MDhaliwal:
Fiancé approved too.....which is good, because she may not completely realize the size of the Infinity speakers I'm looking at!

I sprung the IL60s on my wife as a complete surprise. I guess by then she knew to expect the unexpected. She's never complained probably because they sound so good. I know that she would like for me to get rid of at least most of the 7 other speakers lying about unused.

Greg
post #81 of 282
plhart-

I really appreciate your contributions to this forum-very valuable and helpful.

I'm about to buy a center speaker to go with my Interlude 10 front loudspeakers (no surrounds yet).

When I look at the specs for the various 3-way center speakers among the Interlude, Alpha, Beta, and Kappa lines (Interlude IL36, Alpha A37c, Beta C360, Kappa Center), one thing that stands out for me is that the crossover points vary considerably, and that all the crossovers except the Beta are 24db per octave--the Beta is 12db per octave.

Is there any significant difference among these loudspeakers? That 12db crossover is tending to steer me away from the Beta C360.

Also, I once read that the metallic grille on the Beta's can become magnetized by the magnetic field from the speaker. Is the grille ferrous? Have you heard anything about this?

Thanks a ton, for this and your other contributions here.
post #82 of 282
[quote=vorkosigan1]plhart-

Quote:


I really appreciate your contributions to this forum-very valuable and helpful.

I'm about to buy a center speaker to go with my Interlude 10 front loudspeakers (no surrounds yet).

When I look at the specs for the various 3-way center speakers among the Interlude, Alpha, Beta, and Kappa lines (Interlude IL36, Alpha A37c, Beta C360, Kappa Center), one thing that stands out for me is that the crossover points vary considerably, and that all the crossovers except the Beta are 24db per octave--the Beta is 12db per octave.

Is there any significant difference among these loudspeakers? That 12db crossover is tending to steer me away from the Beta C360.

First of all, the printed specs for crossover slopes and crossover frequency points is not necessarily accurate. The same is true for the speaker system's rated sensitivity and plus or minus dB frequency response deviation. Many times these speaker specs are "massaged" by Sales and Marketing (from most speaker companies) to make a particular speaker look more competitive with it's same-cost competition.

The next concern for speaker designers is the amount of $ they have to spend to hit a target BOM (bill of materials) cumulative price. In the case of the Beta two-ways that meant 12dB high pass (tweeter) and low pass (woofer) networks using good quality components like air cores and mylars in the tweeter circuit and laminated steel core coils and 5% non-polar electrolytics for the woofer. The three-way systems, C360, B40 and B50 use a third order for the woofer then second orders for the high and low pass sections of the mid and a second order for the tweeter.

I can't tell you for sure because I didn't design them but I don't believe either the Interlude or Alpha series use fourth order networks. Perhaps the Kappa Center uses fourth order but I believe that was a rather expensive European design. I can tell you that at the Harman Northridge facility (and to my knowledge) only the expensive Revel speakers (not the Concertas) where allowed to use expensive 4th order crossovers in the design (again because of cost).

IMHO As long as a speaker system has a well integrated crossover (and that goes to the skill of the designer) it shouldn't matter all that much what the order of the crossover is. (As long as you're not talking about first order.)

When we "spun" the speakers in the Harman 4pi chamber (72 frequency response tests in 10 minutes!) we got an immediate integrated readout telling us just how well the crossover worked in the system's integrated off-axis response.(See Dr. Floyd Toole's white papers on the www.infinitysystems.com site for the explanation of this test). This fast "spin" capability is one of the reasons it was usually a fairly quick and easy exercise to exceed the total frequency response performance envelope of competitive designs (by being able to dial-in a very smooth transitioning [of drivers] in off-axis frequency response).



Quote:


Also, I once read that the metallic grille on the Beta's can become magnetized by the magnetic field from the speaker. Is the grille ferrous? Have you heard anything about this?

Yes, the grilles are ferrous. But all the Beta speakers (with the exception of the CSW-10 subwoofer) have all drivers magnetically shielded so I don't quite see how the grilles would become magnetized. And actually, the CSW-10 did originally have a huge bucking magnet/shielding cup structure. But it, along with the detachable IEC power cord was taken off after I left the company but before that unit went into production.
post #83 of 282
Quote:


When I look at the specs for the various 3-way center speakers among the Interlude, Alpha, Beta, and Kappa lines (Interlude IL36, Alpha A37c, Beta C360, Kappa Center), one thing that stands out for me is that the crossover points vary considerably, and that all the crossovers except the Beta are 24db per octave--the Beta is 12db per octave.

I'd stick with the Interlude center channel if you can find one simply because it is a much more likely sound match for your IL10s than the others would be. Yes, they're all Infinitys, but they'll all sound a bit different.
post #84 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLBright View Post

I'd stick with the Interlude center channel if you can find one simply because it is a much more likely sound match for your IL10s than the others would be. Yes, they're all Infinitys, but they'll all sound a bit different.

Absolutely correct. The various size CMMD Infinity drivers from the Interlude era may have slightly different characteristics and Thiele-Small parameters than the Betas which were designed about two years after the Interludes were completed. Also, different speaker designers may do their crossovers (roll-offs, impedence compensation, etc) and port tuning slightly differently than one another so a center from one series will have been voiced with other speakers from that same series.
post #85 of 282
Ok, what you're saying about staying within one speaker line makes sense to me.

My wife just requested that we not have a typical center speaker. Instead, we're talking about using another Interlude 10 (6.5" woofer) as the center speaker.

Any advantage or disadvantage to that? I won't be laying it down on its side, but standing it upright, either on top of the TV or on the floor in front of it.

Also, I assume that the issue of keeping Interlude with Interlude, Beta with Beta, etc., matters much less when we're talking about matching a subwoofer with the main speakers. Is that right?

Thanks, again!
post #86 of 282
Quote:


My wife just requested that we not have a typical center speaker. Instead, we're talking about using another Interlude 10 (6.5" woofer) as the center speaker.

Any advantage or disadvantage to that? I won't be laying it down on its side, but standing it upright, either on top of the TV or on the floor in front of it.

Acoustically, using three matched speakers for left-center-right is a far better solution than resorting to a separate center channel. From their beginning center channel designs have mostly had compromised sonics simply because the woofers had to be placed side-by-side (which causes cancellations at certain frequencies as you move horizontally left to right).

Placing all three identical speakers horizontally (as they were designed to be used) will give you identical horizontal and vertical dispersion characteristics which yields the most cohesiveness of sound. Make sure you point all three speakers roughly at your seated-height listening position and try to keep them all at the same horizontal plane, either above or below your video display.

Quote:


Also, I assume that the issue of keeping Interlude with Interlude, Beta with Beta, etc., matters much less when we're talking about matching a subwoofer with the main speakers. Is that right?

Thanks, again!

Correct, subwoofers are a whole different issue as long as we're talking about using the sub as a true sub. That is, between 20Hz and 80Hz. The IL10s should get down to 80Hz with no problem.
post #87 of 282
Ok, two more quick questions for plhart-

1. You did mean that the front speakers would be placed vertically (i.e., on their bottoms), rather than horizontally (on their sides), right?

2. The way I was planning to place the speakers was one on either side of the television, and the center speaker on top of the television. Clearly, those aren't on the same horizontal plane. I was thinking I could invert the center speaker if I used the same speaker as the L/R pair, so that it's tweeter would be close to the other two tweeters. Alternatively, I could use a conventional center loudspeaker.

Comments? Recommendations?

Thanks!
post #88 of 282
The ideal situation is with all three front channels being totally identical, you could compromise a little on height, just try to get them as close as possible.
post #89 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorkosigan1 View Post

Ok, two more quick questions for plhart-

1. You did mean that the front speakers would be placed vertically (i.e., on their bottoms), rather than horizontally (on their sides), right?

2. The way I was planning to place the speakers was one on either side of the television, and the center speaker on top of the television. Clearly, those aren't on the same horizontal plane. I was thinking I could invert the center speaker if I used the same speaker as the L/R pair, so that it's tweeter would be close to the other two tweeters. Alternatively, I could use a conventional center loudspeaker.

Comments? Recommendations?

Thanks!

In my home theater set up I'm using three Beta 10s oriented vertically across the front with all tweeters on top. I built stands for the left front and right front which puts the midpoint between the woofer and tweeter at 34". This is my seated listening height.

The center Beta 10 has a midpoint of 54" but I built another stand behind our HDTV which tilts the Beta 10 at an angle so that it again hits 34" back at the listening area. I positioned the center Beta 10 with the woofer on the bottom. Because there is a space between the bottom of the speaker and the TV there is not too much proximity bass boost added. Another reason I can do this is because I've just installed one of the first Audyssey Sound Equalizer stand-alone units (pictures and review coming soon!) so the Audyssey can flatten out any proximity and back wall boost effects.

If I had my druthers I'd mount all three Beta 10s at the 54" height and point them down. That would yield the most believable L/C/R pans. The wife says no.

Hope this helps.

Patrick Hart
post #90 of 282
So what did you finally do? Most of this thread activity is from March.

Greg
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